Re: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed
I try very hard not to invalidate, but if the mapper pressed Done, where he or she should have pressed Unlock, I don't hesitate to do so. I do try to write encouraging remarks. I also try to show them how JOSM is a lot better adapted to getting actual work done. Usually be means of screencasts of what was involved in gettting their task validated. It created a very positive feedback loop. At the moment I'm validating the Ugandan schools project though and there I'm happy to be the only one validating. I created a 'tool' to assist me with the chore, but it's all rather specific. Hard to get started on that project, as you have to create a separate account and whatnot. At some point, I'll probably get back to validating of the easy add building projects and cherry picking those tasks that were done by newly arriving mappers to guide them with their first steps into OSM mapping. Polyglot 2016-03-04 19:47 GMT+01:00 Mike Thompson : > > > On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 11:18 AM, john whelan > wrote: > >> I very rarely invalidate. >> > I am glad to hear that as it is my practice as well. I feel "Invalidation" > is very discouraging. Still, even when fixing and then validating it would > be good for those mappers who are interested in learning if there was an > easy way they could see what fixes the validator made. > > > ___ > HOT mailing list > HOT@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > > ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 11:18 AM, john whelan wrote: > I very rarely invalidate. > I am glad to hear that as it is my practice as well. I feel "Invalidation" is very discouraging. Still, even when fixing and then validating it would be good for those mappers who are interested in learning if there was an easy way they could see what fixes the validator made. ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed
>However what is the best way to give specific feedback to mappers when validating? One can leave a comment in the task manager, such as "... some buildings were missed", but they will not know which ones. I could drop a note on an example, but do new mappers know about notes? Generally I just add in the buildings and leave a comment @mapper added twenty three new buildings, I very rarely invalidate. Invalidation does a couple of things, first the mapper may not ever map again so what's the point, second you're left with a grey square, a few grey squares on the project and everyone thinks the project instructions are too demanding and difficult so avoid it. In general I also avoid validating on projects that ask for buildings too many unsquared buildings to fix up especially when people have been using iD to map them. Cheerio John Cheerio John On 4 March 2016 at 12:25, Mike Thompson wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:35 PM, john whelan wrote: > >> >> >> Maperthons are nice in that you get a lot of people but for data quality >> first time mappers aren't the best >> > I have run a number of mapathons and I have started going in to the > project after the event and validating work that I believe was done by > people that attended the mapathon (one can kind of match up real names with > usernames and/or use the time stamp of when the task was marked complete in > the tasking manager). It has given me some insight as to what to emphasize > in the mapathon instructions/training. > > >> and their productivity isn't anywhere near some of the more experienced >> mappers using JOSM. >> > I view the function of mapathons not so much for mapping (although we do > that of course), but to introduce people to OSM and humanitarian mapping so > hopefully they will continue to do this on their own. We don't want people > producing bad data, but small amounts of good data is ok if it means they > are being introduced to the project, having fun, and getting a sense that > they are contributing to a great cause. > > >> What isn't mentioned here is the feedback, it is important getting the >> tone right makes the difference between getting someone to map correctly in >> the future or saying forget this I'm off to play badminton. >> > Yes! It is very discouraging for anyone, let alone a new mapper, to get a > negative comment. I always first tell them what they did right, and then > suggest ways they could do even better in the future. Also, if there area > only a few things wrong I fix them, validate the task, and then leave > feedback. > > However what is the best way to give specific feedback to mappers when > validating? One can leave a comment in the task manager, such as "... some > buildings were missed", but they will not know which ones. I could drop a > note on an example, but do new mappers know about notes? > > Mike > > ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:35 PM, john whelan wrote: > > > Maperthons are nice in that you get a lot of people but for data quality > first time mappers aren't the best > I have run a number of mapathons and I have started going in to the project after the event and validating work that I believe was done by people that attended the mapathon (one can kind of match up real names with usernames and/or use the time stamp of when the task was marked complete in the tasking manager). It has given me some insight as to what to emphasize in the mapathon instructions/training. > and their productivity isn't anywhere near some of the more experienced > mappers using JOSM. > I view the function of mapathons not so much for mapping (although we do that of course), but to introduce people to OSM and humanitarian mapping so hopefully they will continue to do this on their own. We don't want people producing bad data, but small amounts of good data is ok if it means they are being introduced to the project, having fun, and getting a sense that they are contributing to a great cause. > What isn't mentioned here is the feedback, it is important getting the > tone right makes the difference between getting someone to map correctly in > the future or saying forget this I'm off to play badminton. > Yes! It is very discouraging for anyone, let alone a new mapper, to get a negative comment. I always first tell them what they did right, and then suggest ways they could do even better in the future. Also, if there area only a few things wrong I fix them, validate the task, and then leave feedback. However what is the best way to give specific feedback to mappers when validating? One can leave a comment in the task manager, such as "... some buildings were missed", but they will not know which ones. I could drop a note on an example, but do new mappers know about notes? Mike ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed
I’d like to support what John is saying. The process that he describes has made a huge difference in the MSF / Missing Maps TM projects I am managing (and we are hugely grateful to those validators). We have applied this to physical events and, thanks to the hard work of Ralph (RAytoun) and Nick (Tallguy), our validator trainers at the London mapathons, we are seeing more and more experienced mappers gaining confidence in, and enthusiasm for, validating. They validate the newbies’ work at mapathons in real time and, anecdotally, I think this has led to an increase in the quality of the data contributed, but also to the learning experience of those mappers. I would encourage anyone running mapping parties to have validators in the room if they are available – for us it has been invaluable. Cheers, Pete Pete Masters Missing Maps Project Coordinator MSF UK phone: +44 7921 781 518 skype: pedrito1414 twitter: @pedrito1414<https://twitter.com/TheMissingMaps> @theMissingMaps<https://twitter.com/TheMissingMaps> facebook.com/MissingMapsProject<https://www.facebook.com/MissingMapsProject> missingmaps.org<http://www.missingmaps.org/> msf.org.uk<http://www.msf.org.uk/> From: john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com] Sent: 04 March 2016 11:43 To: Russell Deffner Cc: hot@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed It doesn't work for fast large scale projects as you mention, you need more validators but for more average sized projects it works well. Even on the larger faster projects you often see a team approach to validation. You get to recognise mappers who map and validate, if you don't recognise the name you look their experience up then cast an eye over the work if they don't seem experineced. You need to keep on top of the recently mapped tiles, at least twice a day validating, so its a fair bit of work on the validation side but by catching the mistakes early on you save a chunk of work later on. This is looking at validation not so much as something the project managers do later on but more as problem prevention and often problem prevention is cheaper than problem sorting out. Besides it gets more tiles out of the mappers by making them feel more involved. Cheerio John On 3 March 2016 at 21:30, Russell Deffner mailto:russell.deff...@hotosm.org>> wrote: Hi John, Of course; as always – great commentary on how to do better validation. From my recent personal experience, there is no way to do any ‘large scale’ project(s) with one person validating. As example, for Fiji – we have just crossed the 12 projects 100% complete/100% validated mark (without a ‘full-blown activation”) and mostly I have created (and ‘third’ validated) those projects (thanks to Blake for created a handful). However, as I just mentioned – I do a ‘third validation’ for any projects I create. So, I do try to ‘jump in’ and validate a few tiles while the project is in ‘first draft’. However, mostly I’m about 2 or 3 projects behind doing an entire ‘island-wide’ validation. In this case I can guarantee that if we had the ‘level of interest’ of a ‘international disaster’ (as far as media is concerned) then we would need about 3 or 4 people doing what I am doing now. In general, especially with the ‘small islands’ of Fiji, it’s manageable to ‘sort-of’ maintain the entire ‘incident’ with just a few of us; but HOT is definitely in need of building capacity (which is also one of the reason’s I was personally against an ‘activation declaration’ because I think more than a few hundred mappers focusing on Fiji would actually be bad). =Russ From: john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com<mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 5:36 PM To: hot@openstreetmap.org<mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org> Subject: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed There have been a number of projects recently that have been mapped to a fairly high standard and within a much shorter time frame than most without having an urgent tag on them. Basically they have had someone validating them from the beginning and validating the work as it is done. For consistency reasons it's helpful if just one person takes the responsibility. I think by now you're aware that your project gets the lime light for about two weeks before it falls below the newer projects on the list. Those magic two weeks seem to make or break the project. If you can get the interest of a few mappers in those two weeks then it starts to snowball and you get a sort of team effect. To build on it I've seen a project manager role out a new project as the old one gets completed and manage to retain the experienced mappers who were mapping the first project. Maperthons are nice in that you get a lot of people but for data quality first time mappers aren'
Re: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed
It doesn't work for fast large scale projects as you mention, you need more validators but for more average sized projects it works well. Even on the larger faster projects you often see a team approach to validation. You get to recognise mappers who map and validate, if you don't recognise the name you look their experience up then cast an eye over the work if they don't seem experineced. You need to keep on top of the recently mapped tiles, at least twice a day validating, so its a fair bit of work on the validation side but by catching the mistakes early on you save a chunk of work later on. This is looking at validation not so much as something the project managers do later on but more as problem prevention and often problem prevention is cheaper than problem sorting out. Besides it gets more tiles out of the mappers by making them feel more involved. Cheerio John On 3 March 2016 at 21:30, Russell Deffner wrote: > Hi John, > > > > Of course; as always – great commentary on how to do better validation. > > > > From my recent personal experience, there is no way to do any ‘large > scale’ project(s) with one person validating. As example, for Fiji – we > have just crossed the 12 projects 100% complete/100% validated mark > (without a ‘full-blown activation”) and mostly I have created (and ‘third’ > validated) those projects (thanks to Blake for created a handful). > However, as I just mentioned – I do a ‘third validation’ for any projects I > create. So, I do try to ‘jump in’ and validate a few tiles while the > project is in ‘first draft’. However, mostly I’m about 2 or 3 projects > behind doing an entire ‘island-wide’ validation. In this case I can > guarantee that if we had the ‘level of interest’ of a ‘international > disaster’ (as far as media is concerned) then we would need about 3 or 4 > people doing what I am doing now. > > > > In general, especially with the ‘small islands’ of Fiji, it’s manageable > to ‘sort-of’ maintain the entire ‘incident’ with just a few of us; but HOT > is definitely in need of building capacity (which is also one of the > reason’s I was personally against an ‘activation declaration’ because I > think more than a few hundred mappers focusing on Fiji would actually be > bad). > > > > =Russ > > > > *From:* john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, March 03, 2016 5:36 PM > *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org > *Subject:* [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your > project completed > > > > There have been a number of projects recently that have been mapped to a > fairly high standard and within a much shorter time frame than most without > having an urgent tag on them. > > Basically they have had someone validating them from the beginning and > validating the work as it is done. For consistency reasons it's helpful if > just one person takes the responsibility. I think by now you're aware that > your project gets the lime light for about two weeks before it falls below > the newer projects on the list. Those magic two weeks seem to make or > break the project. If you can get the interest of a few mappers in those > two weeks then it starts to snowball and you get a sort of team effect. To > build on it I've seen a project manager role out a new project as the old > one gets completed and manage to retain the experienced mappers who were > mapping the first project. > > Maperthons are nice in that you get a lot of people but for data quality > first time mappers aren't the best and their productivity isn't anywhere > near some of the more experienced mappers using JOSM. The other problem of > new mappers is they sometimes validate other work which means you can't > trust the validation. Some maperthons are well organised and train well, > they also get people coming back time after time so their mappers are not > all inexperienced. Others well, when you look at a project and see twenty > untagged ways, or fifty buildings tagged as area=yes you question the > training. > > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data > > What isn't mentioned here is the feedback, it is important getting the > tone right makes the difference between getting someone to map correctly in > the future or saying forget this I'm off to play badminton. Mappers have > different cultures and backgrounds, they are volunteers so treat them > gently and use third party things like the African highway wiki suggests > rather than you're an idiot for using living street in an African village. > > I don't have a magic supply of validators but if you find one be nice to > them and grab them for your project day one. Two months int
Re: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed
Hi John, Of course; as always – great commentary on how to do better validation. >From my recent personal experience, there is no way to do any ‘large scale’ >project(s) with one person validating. As example, for Fiji – we have just >crossed the 12 projects 100% complete/100% validated mark (without a >‘full-blown activation”) and mostly I have created (and ‘third’ validated) >those projects (thanks to Blake for created a handful). However, as I just >mentioned – I do a ‘third validation’ for any projects I create. So, I do try >to ‘jump in’ and validate a few tiles while the project is in ‘first draft’. >However, mostly I’m about 2 or 3 projects behind doing an entire ‘island-wide’ >validation. In this case I can guarantee that if we had the ‘level of >interest’ of a ‘international disaster’ (as far as media is concerned) then we >would need about 3 or 4 people doing what I am doing now. In general, especially with the ‘small islands’ of Fiji, it’s manageable to ‘sort-of’ maintain the entire ‘incident’ with just a few of us; but HOT is definitely in need of building capacity (which is also one of the reason’s I was personally against an ‘activation declaration’ because I think more than a few hundred mappers focusing on Fiji would actually be bad). =Russ From: john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 5:36 PM To: hot@openstreetmap.org Subject: [HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed There have been a number of projects recently that have been mapped to a fairly high standard and within a much shorter time frame than most without having an urgent tag on them. Basically they have had someone validating them from the beginning and validating the work as it is done. For consistency reasons it's helpful if just one person takes the responsibility. I think by now you're aware that your project gets the lime light for about two weeks before it falls below the newer projects on the list. Those magic two weeks seem to make or break the project. If you can get the interest of a few mappers in those two weeks then it starts to snowball and you get a sort of team effect. To build on it I've seen a project manager role out a new project as the old one gets completed and manage to retain the experienced mappers who were mapping the first project. Maperthons are nice in that you get a lot of people but for data quality first time mappers aren't the best and their productivity isn't anywhere near some of the more experienced mappers using JOSM. The other problem of new mappers is they sometimes validate other work which means you can't trust the validation. Some maperthons are well organised and train well, they also get people coming back time after time so their mappers are not all inexperienced. Others well, when you look at a project and see twenty untagged ways, or fifty buildings tagged as area=yes you question the training. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data What isn't mentioned here is the feedback, it is important getting the tone right makes the difference between getting someone to map correctly in the future or saying forget this I'm off to play badminton. Mappers have different cultures and backgrounds, they are volunteers so treat them gently and use third party things like the African highway wiki suggests rather than you're an idiot for using living street in an African village. I don't have a magic supply of validators but if you find one be nice to them and grab them for your project day one. Two months into the project cleaning up all the mistakes that have taken place when new mappers weren't corrected early is a hard slog for a validator. If you want project numbers that support this approach email me separately. Thanks John ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[HOT] Comment to HOT project managers about getting your project completed
There have been a number of projects recently that have been mapped to a fairly high standard and within a much shorter time frame than most without having an urgent tag on them. Basically they have had someone validating them from the beginning and validating the work as it is done. For consistency reasons it's helpful if just one person takes the responsibility. I think by now you're aware that your project gets the lime light for about two weeks before it falls below the newer projects on the list. Those magic two weeks seem to make or break the project. If you can get the interest of a few mappers in those two weeks then it starts to snowball and you get a sort of team effect. To build on it I've seen a project manager role out a new project as the old one gets completed and manage to retain the experienced mappers who were mapping the first project. Maperthons are nice in that you get a lot of people but for data quality first time mappers aren't the best and their productivity isn't anywhere near some of the more experienced mappers using JOSM. The other problem of new mappers is they sometimes validate other work which means you can't trust the validation. Some maperthons are well organised and train well, they also get people coming back time after time so their mappers are not all inexperienced. Others well, when you look at a project and see twenty untagged ways, or fifty buildings tagged as area=yes you question the training. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data What isn't mentioned here is the feedback, it is important getting the tone right makes the difference between getting someone to map correctly in the future or saying forget this I'm off to play badminton. Mappers have different cultures and backgrounds, they are volunteers so treat them gently and use third party things like the African highway wiki suggests rather than you're an idiot for using living street in an African village. I don't have a magic supply of validators but if you find one be nice to them and grab them for your project day one. Two months into the project cleaning up all the mistakes that have taken place when new mappers weren't corrected early is a hard slog for a validator. If you want project numbers that support this approach email me separately. Thanks John ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
