Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[graham]

Steve,

Thanks for the feed back. Great to know that a course has been thought 
of earlier. Via the Task manager seems a good way to get quick and 
simple feedback , as you mentioned.


Cheers,
Graham


On 12/4/2016 2:49, Steve Bower wrote:

Graham,
Excellent questions on an important topic - I think HOT has improved 
its mentoring & management of validation & validators, and needs to 
continue that effort.


There is a validation course at the HOT Training Center [1], "required 
training for, and will teach the essential knowledge required to, 
perform the Validation Role during an Activation". I have not taken 
the course, and don't know if/how it is "enforced" as a required course.


Regarding "coaching", questioned in your summary list of key points : 
I think the point is that validators need to be good coaches, giving 
feedback to the mappers being validated (as John clarified). Feedback 
from validators has in the past been largely lacking, in my limited 
experience - hence new mappers don't always learn from their mistakes. 
The Tasking Manager could be enhanced to simplify and encourage 
feedback from validators to appropriate mappers.


Mike Thompson : Regarding:

"1) If the instructions explicitly say not to map something (e.g.
tracks) but some were mapped and were done so correctly by the
generally accepted practices in OSM, do you leave them?  I did."


I would give the feedback that it was not necessary to trace the 
tracks, and that it would be preferable to stick to 
the requested features in the future in order to complete the project 
as quickly as possible. However, they were traced correctly, and thank 
you for the contribution and your extra work. (As John said, in 
general the work of others should not be deleted, only corrected as 
needed.)


[1] http://courses.hotosm.org/course/index.php?categoryid=2

Cheers,
~~Steve



On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Mike Thompson > wrote:




On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:25 AM, john whelan
mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:

If you read through the wiki it specifically mentions
highway=service.

>By default,
primary/secondary/tertiary/unclassified/residential and
service highway
=* are
supposed to be paved.

It would be more clear and obvious if highway=service appeared in
the table with the other possible values, but I will accept this
as indicating that we should "highway=service" roads in Africa.


When I'm validating then I consider I'm validating the work
done by HOT mappers on this project on the tile.  Any previous
work that was there before I consider governed by the general
rules of OSM ie don't touch it unless its very clearly wrong
and even then there is a long winded protocol that it is
recommended you follow.  I certainly won't delete anything
because it wasn't there on the image.  i can be helpful
and looking at the number of edits the mapper has made can
give you a clue as well.

Good advice



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Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[graham]

Hi John,

I guess that there is a clear point that you 
mentioned:"a validator's role is more to ensure that the major requirements of the project are met and guidelines followed."


The issue of the huts size is a tricky one, and as you say, it depends on how quickly the maps are needed by the relief agencies. For simply the number of huts,inaccurate sizes may be acceptable 
for a fast 
delivery but if populations are to be estimated from the size of the huts, data 
would then 
been lost. For the validator to either invalidate or remap, is problem, but I guess that this relies on the mapper understanding the task descriptions. Should not the task description explicitly say 
something like "correct size and shape of the dwellings to be 
interpreted", for example. The other issue here is the scale at which the images are interpreted. If someone maps at a too smaller scale (perhaps for a fast delivery), then potential accuracy could be lost.


Thanks for highlighting these two links:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa 



http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features

Validating as the project goes along from your point of view seems the good way. This is particularly 
relevant with mentoring, and 
valuable feed back to mappers at the time. Without feedback, new mapper might lose interest, as they want to know if they have done a good job or not, or if they have a question, they need an answer. As you say, this also gets the projects done faster.


Getting more validators, you suggest some form of recognition, this is whyI thought for that "badge" idea. Still, perhaps someone else can think of a better idea. 
My final idea might be, if the 
HOT team knew of interested and capable validators, perhaps they could invite them to support some projects 
as 
validators. Being asked for support due to one's skills, is often a reward in itself.


Thanks for your views and ideas on this subject, it has opened my eyes to the 
issues and challenges of validating, as well as other issues of mapping in 
general.

Regards,

Graham



On 6/4/2016 19:55, john whelan wrote:
I tend to think in shades of grey rather than black and white.  In OSM 
there are different mappers, each mapper interprets things slightly 
differently so two mappers will rarely give exactly the same result 
with the same inputs.


For example one might like to add large buildings, the other will 
ignore them.  Both are correct but are different interpretations.  
Which to my mind means a validator's role is more to ensure that the 
major requirements of the project are met and guidelines followed.


One difficulty is the size of huts.  For many mappers c and 
v is a quick way to map these. However there are ways to analyse 
the size of the hut then estimate how many people are living in it.  
Do we expect validators to check the size of the hut mapped is the 
same as the size in the image?  Then do we invalidate or remap?


A particular project may have a deadline to meet, NGO staff flying out 
for example.  In which case they may wish to reduce the information 
requested to the bare essential minimum in order to get the project 
completed before the deadline. However many NGOs etc will make use of 
the map at some point in time in the future so additional information 
may be useful and in any event there will be some economic advantages 
to the locals in having the area mapped.


We use different standards for mapping in different parts of the world 
and whilst local knowledge helps it is not essential for HOT mapping.  
What is essential is following the local agreed standards ie 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa and some very 
experienced mappers may not be aware of them.


JOSM / iD / Potlatch / OSMand amongst others are all valid methods for 
entering map data.  JOSM does some validation which catches a fair 
number of basic errors before uploading and its building plugin is 
unbeaten for quickly and accurately drawing in buildings.  It is my 
editor of choice.  However it needs to be installed and that includes 
JAVA.  JAVA has been listed in the past as being a security hole by US 
government so for some corporate machines installing it is not an 
option.  Also there can be some issues with Apple computers and JAVA.  
Additionally installing it is more complex than just opening up a 
browser and using iD.  So in the same way that some people freeze when 
asked to add two numbers together so some have problems even thinking 
about installing JOSM. JOSM is also very rich and I don’t use all its 
features so when you train with JOSM you need to train people just to 
use the features they need.  If its just highways and settlements 
these are fairly minimal.  It does have the advantage of being able to 
tag anything so you can point them back to 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features which helps with 
consistency and standard ways of tagging.

Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[Steve Bower]

Graham,
Excellent questions on an important topic - I think HOT has improved its
mentoring & management of validation & validators, and needs to continue
that effort.

There is a validation course at the HOT Training Center [1], "required
training for, and will teach the essential knowledge required to, perform
the Validation Role during an Activation". I have not taken the course, and
don't know if/how it is "enforced" as a required course.

Regarding "coaching", questioned in your summary list of key points : I
think the point is that validators need to be good coaches, giving feedback
to the mappers being validated (as John clarified). Feedback from
validators has in the past been largely lacking, in my limited experience -
hence new mappers don't always learn from their mistakes. The Tasking
Manager could be enhanced to simplify and encourage feedback from
validators to appropriate mappers.

Mike Thompson : Regarding:

"1) If the instructions explicitly say not to map something (e.g. tracks)
but some were mapped and were done so correctly by the generally accepted
practices in OSM, do you leave them?  I did."


I would give the feedback that it was not necessary to trace the tracks,
and that it would be preferable to stick to the requested features in the
future in order to complete the project as quickly as possible. However,
they were traced correctly, and thank you for the contribution and your
extra work. (As John said, in general the work of others should not be
deleted, only corrected as needed.)

[1] http://courses.hotosm.org/course/index.php?categoryid=2

Cheers,
~~Steve



On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:25 AM, john whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> If you read through the wiki it specifically mentions highway=service.
>>
>> >By default, primary/secondary/tertiary/unclassified/residential and
>> service highway =* are
>> supposed to be paved.
>>
> It would be more clear and obvious if highway=service appeared in the
> table with the other possible values, but I will accept this as indicating
> that we should "highway=service" roads in Africa.
>
>
>>
>> When I'm validating then I consider I'm validating the work done by HOT
>> mappers on this project on the tile.  Any previous work that was there
>> before I consider governed by the general rules of OSM ie don't touch it
>> unless its very clearly wrong and even then there is a long winded protocol
>> that it is recommended you follow.  I certainly won't delete anything
>> because it wasn't there on the image.  i can be helpful and looking
>> at the number of edits the mapper has made can give you a clue as well.
>>
> Good advice
>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[Mike Thompson]

On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:25 AM, john whelan  wrote:

> If you read through the wiki it specifically mentions highway=service.
>
> >By default, primary/secondary/tertiary/unclassified/residential and
> service highway =* are
> supposed to be paved.
>
It would be more clear and obvious if highway=service appeared in the table
with the other possible values, but I will accept this as indicating that
we should "highway=service" roads in Africa.


>
> When I'm validating then I consider I'm validating the work done by HOT
> mappers on this project on the tile.  Any previous work that was there
> before I consider governed by the general rules of OSM ie don't touch it
> unless its very clearly wrong and even then there is a long winded protocol
> that it is recommended you follow.  I certainly won't delete anything
> because it wasn't there on the image.  i can be helpful and looking
> at the number of edits the mapper has made can give you a clue as well.
>
Good advice

>
>
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Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[john whelan]

If you read through the wiki it specifically mentions highway=service.

>By default, primary/secondary/tertiary/unclassified/residential and
service highway =* are
supposed to be paved.

When I'm validating then I consider I'm validating the work done by HOT
mappers on this project on the tile.  Any previous work that was there
before I consider governed by the general rules of OSM ie don't touch it
unless its very clearly wrong and even then there is a long winded protocol
that it is recommended you follow.  I certainly won't delete anything
because it wasn't there on the image.  i can be helpful and looking
at the number of edits the mapper has made can give you a clue as well.

This one is just highways, but there are other objects and HOT projects on
the same area.  If JOSM Validation throws up an error or warning on
something not in the project I will check it and correct the error or
warning but its a value judgement sometimes.

Cheerio John

On 8 April 2016 at 11:36, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> John,
>
> Last night I validated one of the tasks (I have done quite a bit of
> validating before on a couple of other projects). I ran into these dilemmas:
>
> 1) If the instructions explicitly say not to map something (e.g. tracks)
> but some were mapped and were done so correctly by the generally accepted
> practices in OSM, do you leave them?  I did.
>
> 2) If something was mapped that the African Highway Tagging[1] doesn't
> cover, but we might otherwise in the larger OSM map, what does a validator
> do?  For example, highway=service. Does one "force fit" the mapped way into
> the African Tagging (e.g. perhaps highway=service becomes
> highway=residential), use what is generally accepted in OSM, or?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 5:28 PM, john whelan  wrote:
>
>> ​
>> MSF have been doing some very interesting projects recently, for example
>> one is http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1669 is just roads so if you
>> fancy trying your hand at validation and have a copy of JOSM around try
>> your hand.
>>
>> Cheerio John​
>>
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
>
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Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[Mike Thompson]

John,

Last night I validated one of the tasks (I have done quite a bit of
validating before on a couple of other projects). I ran into these dilemmas:

1) If the instructions explicitly say not to map something (e.g. tracks)
but some were mapped and were done so correctly by the generally accepted
practices in OSM, do you leave them?  I did.

2) If something was mapped that the African Highway Tagging[1] doesn't
cover, but we might otherwise in the larger OSM map, what does a validator
do?  For example, highway=service. Does one "force fit" the mapped way into
the African Tagging (e.g. perhaps highway=service becomes
highway=residential), use what is generally accepted in OSM, or?

Thanks,

Mike

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa


On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 5:28 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> ​
> MSF have been doing some very interesting projects recently, for example
> one is http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1669 is just roads so if you fancy
> trying your hand at validation and have a copy of JOSM around try your hand.
>
> Cheerio John​
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
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Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[graham]

Thanks for the link John. I will look into it.

Regards,
Graham

On 8/4/2016 7:28, john whelan wrote:

​
MSF have been doing some very interesting projects recently, for 
example one is http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1669 is just roads so 
if you fancy trying your hand at validation and have a copy of JOSM 
around try your hand.


Cheerio John​



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Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[john whelan]

​
MSF have been doing some very interesting projects recently, for example
one is http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1669 is just roads so if you fancy
trying your hand at validation and have a copy of JOSM around try your hand.

Cheerio John​
___
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HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[john whelan]

I tend to think in shades of grey rather than black and white.  In OSM
there are different mappers, each mapper interprets things slightly
differently so two mappers will rarely give exactly the same result with
the same inputs.

For example one might like to add large buildings, the other will ignore
them.  Both are correct but are different interpretations.  Which to my
mind means a validator's role is more to ensure that the major requirements
of the project are met and guidelines followed.

One difficulty is the size of huts.  For many mappers c and v
is a quick way to map these.  However there are ways to analyse the size of
the hut then estimate how many people are living in it.  Do we expect
validators to check the size of the hut mapped is the same as the size in
the image?  Then do we invalidate or remap?

A particular project may have a deadline to meet, NGO staff flying out for
example.  In which case they may wish to reduce the information requested
to the bare essential minimum in order to get the project completed before
the deadline.  However many NGOs etc will make use of the map at some point
in time in the future so additional information may be useful and in any
event there will be some economic advantages to the locals in having the
area mapped.

We use different standards for mapping in different parts of the world and
whilst local knowledge helps it is not essential for HOT mapping.  What is
essential is following the local agreed standards ie
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa and some very
experienced mappers may not be aware of them.

JOSM / iD / Potlatch / OSMand amongst others are all valid methods for
entering map data.  JOSM does some validation which catches a fair number
of basic errors before uploading and its building plugin is unbeaten for
quickly and accurately drawing in buildings.  It is my editor of choice.
However it needs to be installed and that includes JAVA.  JAVA has been
listed in the past as being a security hole by US government so for some
corporate machines installing it is not an option.  Also there can be some
issues with Apple computers and JAVA.  Additionally installing it is more
complex than just opening up a browser and using iD.  So in the same way
that some people freeze when asked to add two numbers together so some have
problems even thinking about installing JOSM.  JOSM is also very rich and I
don’t use all its features so when you train with JOSM you need to train
people just to use the features they need.  If its just highways and
settlements these are fairly minimal.  It does have the advantage of being
able to tag anything so you can point them back to
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features which helps with
consistency and standard ways of tagging.

Different people think in different ways about validation.  To me in order
to reduce the number of errors being made in the first place I prefer to
validate as the project is done.  This is a form of coaching the mappers.
Others take the view of map it all first then validate.  Fine except if
you’re coming in to validate two months after the mapping its not really
worthwhile giving feedback to a mapper about something they did two months
ago.

The worst thing I’ve seen is a new mapper validating other’s work, select a
task at random would occasionally suggest this but then you really don’t
know if the mapping is good or not.  In Nepal it was so bad we just
invalidated everything in sight and revalidated.

I often work with others validating and if its working against time then we
delegate, check this etc and any queries bug me.  I’ll go in and pull in
much of the project into JOSM afterwards and give it a more through check.
Are the correct tags being used?  A common problem building=yes being used
for a group of buildings. Highway=pedestrian and there are a few others.
i in JOSM can give you a fair bit of information about the item.

How do we get more validators?  I’m not sure, in general most mappers with
300 plus edits are ready to validate.  However I’ve seen some mappers when
I validate their work consistently miss 5% of settlements.  I’ve seen
others some of whom have a background in GIS and I’m happy if they validate
after seeing them map a dozen tiles.  I think we need to value them more
and give them some sort of recognition for the work they do.  On a couple
of projects now we’ve validated as the mapping was done and the project
gets completed very quickly.  You’ve probably noticed that a project gets
about two weeks in the limelight and if it hasn’t made good progress in
those two weeks it lingers on unfinished.  Get a validator in there early
and you get more mapping with the feedback and you get more of a team
spirit to complete the project.

To my mind all projects could benefit from a validator but we don’t have
enough and coaxing them onto new projects is the most effective use we can
make of the ones we have.

Cheerio John

On 5 April 2016 at 22:07, gr

Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[graham]

Thanks for you feedback John and Blake,


I have tried to pull out some of the points raised here, for my 
understanding and perhaps for others:



There are different standards of mapping and to some extent different 
standards of validation needed, depending on the project.


In-country knowledge of the country can effect the quality of 
mapping/validation.


A good mapper does not mean that their are a good validator, different 
skill sets are needed.


The capacity to map/validate is also dependant to some degree on the the 
quality of the video system and screen one is using.


There seems to be a difference of quality of mapping depending on the 
software used: JOSM vs. iD. Is this an issue to be addressed?


Was it suggested that coaching is a good way for people to become good 
validators?


Certain projects could do with a certified validator but naturally to 
have a "badge" is not for everybody.


A link to validating guidelines 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data


Please say if I missed and misrepresented your points.


Regards,
Graham



On 5/4/2016 21:49, john whelan wrote:
I think the point was that that there are different standards of 
mapping and to some extent validation as well.  In Nepal we had time 
and resource constraints and I must confess I took some short cuts and 
didn't do a through a job as could have been done.  Sometimes it's a 
judgement call and I think as you and I have discussed sometimes some 
validators do an excellent job but check rather more than either of us 
would when validating.


I've even heard a whisper of a validator taking one look at someone's 
work and zapping it and just remapping as it was quicker but of course 
that never happens in OSM and would never be documented.


Cheerio John

On 5 April 2016 at 09:36, Blake Girardot > wrote:




On 4/5/2016 3:15 PM, john whelan wrote:

Blake thought my methods of validation in Nepal left much to be
desired.


That sounds a little strong :) I forget the question I had or the
comment, but after talking with you I was good with it and agreed
is all I remember.

>I agreed but given that 70% of the mappers were new even the

basic validation I did improved the data quality quickly.


This I 100% agree with.

Cheers,
Blake


I also had a

couple of mappers who were visually checking tiles and finding
30% more
buildings sometimes.  Which comes back to the quality of the video
system and screen you’re using.  “Why does your laptop show
the image in
JOSM better than mine in iD?”  The lap top I was using was an
old Dell
professional grade one and my desktop screen at home shows an even
clearer image.  So the equipment the validator has available
might be an
important factor on the quality of the validation.

To me validation is a form of coaching being good at something
doesn’t
mean you make a good coach.  To me Maperthons are a source of
a dozen
new mappers and really questionable data.  The faster we can
get in and
give feedback the better.  When you need to add 50 settlements
to a tile
it takes resources and to do this I’ve used sensible mappers
with a
month’s experience and delegated.  If its just
highway=unclassified and
landuse=residential that’s fine.  I’ve also seen mappers with
a thousand
edits to their name who don’t make good validators, the
project asks for
settlements and connecting highways, they like to map all the
tracks as
well.  I’ve seen tiles invalidated for missing things that
were not
requested in the project instructions.

It also needs tact, a European mapper who has been mapping
locally will
almost certainly use the wrong tags in Africa for highways. 
They’re

high quality mappers of the type Africa needs but invalidating
the tile
because the tags are wrong may not help with the retention rates.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data
is a start, I’m not certain I agree with every statement but
it’s a good
start.

There is a problem with iD mappers they tend to have more
crossing ways
and highways that almost meet than others.  Probably because
there is no
easy way to check for these in iD. So whilst I would comment JOSM
validation detected six crossing ways normally, if I know
they’re an iD
editor I just correct and don’t comment.

If it’s a more complex project, map and tag everything in
sight I don’t
even bother validating these days.  I’ll let someone else with
more
experience than I go and do it.  I

Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[john whelan]

I think the point was that that there are different standards of mapping
and to some extent validation as well.  In Nepal we had time and resource
constraints and I must confess I took some short cuts and didn't do a
through a job as could have been done.  Sometimes it's a judgement call and
I think as you and I have discussed sometimes some validators do an
excellent job but check rather more than either of us would when validating.

I've even heard a whisper of a validator taking one look at someone's work
and zapping it and just remapping as it was quicker but of course that
never happens in OSM and would never be documented.

Cheerio John

On 5 April 2016 at 09:36, Blake Girardot  wrote:

>
>
> On 4/5/2016 3:15 PM, john whelan wrote:
>
> Blake thought my methods of validation in Nepal left much to be
>> desired.
>>
>
> That sounds a little strong :) I forget the question I had or the comment,
> but after talking with you I was good with it and agreed is all I remember.
>
> >I agreed but given that 70% of the mappers were new even the
>
>> basic validation I did improved the data quality quickly.
>>
>
> This I 100% agree with.
>
> Cheers,
> Blake
>
>
> I also had a
>
>> couple of mappers who were visually checking tiles and finding 30% more
>> buildings sometimes.  Which comes back to the quality of the video
>> system and screen you’re using.  “Why does your laptop show the image in
>> JOSM better than mine in iD?”  The lap top I was using was an old Dell
>> professional grade one and my desktop screen at home shows an even
>> clearer image.  So the equipment the validator has available might be an
>> important factor on the quality of the validation.
>>
>> To me validation is a form of coaching being good at something doesn’t
>> mean you make a good coach.  To me Maperthons are a source of a dozen
>> new mappers and really questionable data.  The faster we can get in and
>> give feedback the better.  When you need to add 50 settlements to a tile
>> it takes resources and to do this I’ve used sensible mappers with a
>> month’s experience and delegated.  If its just highway=unclassified and
>> landuse=residential that’s fine.  I’ve also seen mappers with a thousand
>> edits to their name who don’t make good validators, the project asks for
>> settlements and connecting highways, they like to map all the tracks as
>> well.  I’ve seen tiles invalidated for missing things that were not
>> requested in the project instructions.
>>
>> It also needs tact, a European mapper who has been mapping locally will
>> almost certainly use the wrong tags in Africa for highways.  They’re
>> high quality mappers of the type Africa needs but invalidating the tile
>> because the tags are wrong may not help with the retention rates.
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data
>> is a start, I’m not certain I agree with every statement but it’s a good
>> start.
>>
>> There is a problem with iD mappers they tend to have more crossing ways
>> and highways that almost meet than others.  Probably because there is no
>> easy way to check for these in iD. So whilst I would comment JOSM
>> validation detected six crossing ways normally, if I know they’re an iD
>> editor I just correct and don’t comment.
>>
>> If it’s a more complex project, map and tag everything in sight I don’t
>> even bother validating these days.  I’ll let someone else with more
>> experience than I go and do it.  I only have 8,000+ edits to my name.
>> These projects certainly could do with a certified validator and to be
>> honest I have no interest in getting a badge.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 5 April 2016 at 05:37, graham > > wrote:
>>
>> Dear Hi,
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> With the subject of validators in that last few emails, and past
>> emails thread discussing how to know when some one can start validating or
>> not. How much experience does one need? One may think that they are good,
>> but other may not etc..
>> 
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> So, I thought to just suggest an idea. I am not sure what people
>> might think about it, maybe it has already been discussed before.
>> Maybe the issue has been solved already.
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> The idea:
>>
>> I think that maybe if there was a process to become officially
>> recognised as an"Validator", then it would be a "position" worth achieving,
>> it would make it a challenge. For now, I do not think that there is any
>> solid pre-requisite to be a validator?
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Below I am suggesting a potential avenue to become an official
>> validator:
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> 1) To complete a minimum number of tiles, as proof of commitment to
>> HOT and direct experience with HOT mapping (regardless of one's
>> professional career), then 2) to take a short test of proficiency.
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Details:
>>
>> 1) Can members the HOT team determine the number of tiles each 

Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[Blake Girardot]

On 4/5/2016 3:15 PM, john whelan wrote:


Blake thought my methods of validation in Nepal left much to be
desired.


That sounds a little strong :) I forget the question I had or the 
comment, but after talking with you I was good with it and agreed is all 
I remember.


>I agreed but given that 70% of the mappers were new even the

basic validation I did improved the data quality quickly.


This I 100% agree with.

Cheers,
Blake


I also had a

couple of mappers who were visually checking tiles and finding 30% more
buildings sometimes.  Which comes back to the quality of the video
system and screen you’re using.  “Why does your laptop show the image in
JOSM better than mine in iD?”  The lap top I was using was an old Dell
professional grade one and my desktop screen at home shows an even
clearer image.  So the equipment the validator has available might be an
important factor on the quality of the validation.

To me validation is a form of coaching being good at something doesn’t
mean you make a good coach.  To me Maperthons are a source of a dozen
new mappers and really questionable data.  The faster we can get in and
give feedback the better.  When you need to add 50 settlements to a tile
it takes resources and to do this I’ve used sensible mappers with a
month’s experience and delegated.  If its just highway=unclassified and
landuse=residential that’s fine.  I’ve also seen mappers with a thousand
edits to their name who don’t make good validators, the project asks for
settlements and connecting highways, they like to map all the tracks as
well.  I’ve seen tiles invalidated for missing things that were not
requested in the project instructions.

It also needs tact, a European mapper who has been mapping locally will
almost certainly use the wrong tags in Africa for highways.  They’re
high quality mappers of the type Africa needs but invalidating the tile
because the tags are wrong may not help with the retention rates.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data
is a start, I’m not certain I agree with every statement but it’s a good
start.

There is a problem with iD mappers they tend to have more crossing ways
and highways that almost meet than others.  Probably because there is no
easy way to check for these in iD. So whilst I would comment JOSM
validation detected six crossing ways normally, if I know they’re an iD
editor I just correct and don’t comment.

If it’s a more complex project, map and tag everything in sight I don’t
even bother validating these days.  I’ll let someone else with more
experience than I go and do it.  I only have 8,000+ edits to my name.
These projects certainly could do with a certified validator and to be
honest I have no interest in getting a badge.

Cheerio John

On 5 April 2016 at 05:37, graham mailto:gra...@klunky.co.uk>> wrote:

Dear Hi,

__ __

With the subject of validators in that last few emails, and past emails 
thread discussing how to know when some one can start validating or not. How 
much experience does one need? One may think that they are good, but other may 
not etc..


__ __

So, I thought to just suggest an idea. I am not sure what people might 
think about it, maybe it has already been discussed before.
Maybe the issue has been solved already.

__ __

The idea:

I think that maybe if there was a process to become officially recognised as 
an"Validator", then it would be a "position" worth achieving, it would make it 
a challenge. For now, I do not think that there is any solid pre-requisite to be a validator?

__ __

Below I am suggesting a potential avenue to become an official 
validator:

__ __

1) To complete a minimum number of tiles, as proof of commitment to HOT and 
direct experience with HOT mapping (regardless of one's professional career), 
then 2) to take a short test of proficiency.

__ __

Details:

1) Can members the HOT team determine the number of tiles each user has completed? I 
know that more that one user can complete one tile, but perhaps if one user completes a 
high percentage of a tile (of all the points, line, and polygons), that would be 
considered a "complete tile" for this purpose. As for another users then 
reworking the tile, this is another discussion point.

__ __

2)The test might be to review a number of tiles from previous projects and 
they need to comment on the quality of the digitalisation and complete any 
reworking that is needed. A minimum number of tiles need to be correct, (to a 
certain standard), in order to pass the test. In each test, a random subset of 
tiles for a complete selection of tiles could be used, so that not cheating 
could occur.

__ __

__ __

Additionally, these official validators could have a symbol next to their users 
names. This way, when a mapper asks for advise regarding their mapping, the mapper would 
know if a "validator"

Re: [HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[john whelan]

I've probably done more validation than most.  There is often no record of
my involvement with a project.

I tend to be pragmatic, I’ve been into projects were I’ve changed close to
a thousand area=yes to buildings=yes.  You don’t need a degree in Rocket
Science to do this.  JOSM validation will pick them out, select by mapper,
after the first twenty by the same mapper have been checked I may just
convert the rest.

Blake thought my methods of validation in Nepal left much to be desired.  I
agreed but given that 70% of the mappers were new even the basic validation
I did improved the data quality quickly.  I also had a couple of mappers
who were visually checking tiles and finding 30% more buildings sometimes.
Which comes back to the quality of the video system and screen you’re
using.  “Why does your laptop show the image in JOSM better than mine in
iD?”  The lap top I was using was an old Dell professional grade one and my
desktop screen at home shows an even clearer image.  So the equipment the
validator has available might be an important factor on the quality of the
validation.

To me validation is a form of coaching being good at something doesn’t mean
you make a good coach.  To me Maperthons are a source of a dozen new
mappers and really questionable data.  The faster we can get in and give
feedback the better.  When you need to add 50 settlements to a tile it
takes resources and to do this I’ve used sensible mappers with a month’s
experience and delegated.  If its just highway=unclassified and
landuse=residential that’s fine.  I’ve also seen mappers with a thousand
edits to their name who don’t make good validators, the project asks for
settlements and connecting highways, they like to map all the tracks as
well.  I’ve seen tiles invalidated for missing things that were not
requested in the project instructions.

It also needs tact, a European mapper who has been mapping locally will
almost certainly use the wrong tags in Africa for highways.  They’re high
quality mappers of the type Africa needs but invalidating the tile because
the tags are wrong may not help with the retention rates.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data is a
start, I’m not certain I agree with every statement but it’s a good start.

There is a problem with iD mappers they tend to have more crossing ways and
highways that almost meet than others.  Probably because there is no easy
way to check for these in iD. So whilst I would comment JOSM validation
detected six crossing ways normally, if I know they’re an iD editor I just
correct and don’t comment.

If it’s a more complex project, map and tag everything in sight I don’t
even bother validating these days.  I’ll let someone else with more
experience than I go and do it.  I only have 8,000+ edits to my name. These
projects certainly could do with a certified validator and to be honest I
have no interest in getting a badge.

Cheerio John

On 5 April 2016 at 05:37, graham  wrote:

> Dear Hi,
>
>
>
>
> With the subject of validators in that last few emails, and past emails 
> thread discussing how to know when some one can start validating or not. How 
> much experience does one need? One may think that they are good, but other 
> may not etc..
>
>
>
> So, I thought to just suggest an idea. I am not sure what people might think 
> about it, maybe it has already been discussed before.
> Maybe the issue has been solved already.
>
>
>
> The idea:
>
>
> I think that maybe if there was a process to become officially recognised as 
> an"Validator", then it would be a "position" worth achieving, it would make 
> it a challenge. For now, I do not think that there is any solid pre-requisite 
> to be a validator?
>
>
>
> Below I am suggesting a potential avenue to become an official validator:
>
>
>
>
> 1) To complete a minimum number of tiles, as proof of commitment to HOT and 
> direct experience with HOT mapping (regardless of one's professional career), 
> then 2) to take a short test of proficiency.
>
>
>
> Details:
>
>
> 1) Can members the HOT team determine the number of tiles each user has 
> completed? I know that more that one user can complete one tile, but perhaps 
> if one user completes a high percentage of a tile (of all the points, line, 
> and polygons), that would be considered a "complete tile" for this purpose. 
> As for another users then reworking the tile, this is another discussion 
> point.
>
>
>
> 2)
> The test might be to review a number of tiles from previous projects and they 
> need to comment on the quality of the digitalisation and complete any 
> reworking that is needed. A minimum number of tiles need to be correct, (to a 
> certain standard), in order to pass the test. In each test, a random subset 
> of tiles for a complete selection of tiles could be used, so that not 
> cheating could occur.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Additionally, these official validators could have a symbol next to their 
> users names. This way, when a mapper ask

[HOT] How to become a validator (a suggestion)

[graham]

Dear Hi,

With the subject of validators in that last few emails, and past emails thread discussing how to know when some one can start validating or not. How much experience does one need? One may think that they are good, but other may not etc.. 



So, I thought to just suggest an idea. I am not sure what people might think about it, maybe it has already been discussed before. 
Maybe the issue has been solved already.


The idea:

I think that maybe if there was a process to become officially recognised as 
an"Validator", then it would be a "position" worth achieving, it would make it 
a challenge. For now, I do not think that there is any solid pre-requisite to be a validator?

Below I am suggesting a potential avenue to become an official validator:

1) To complete a minimum number of tiles, as proof of commitment to HOT and 
direct experience with HOT mapping (regardless of one's professional career), 
then 2) to take a short test of proficiency.

Details:

1) Can members the HOT team determine the number of tiles each user has completed? I know 
that more that one user can complete one tile, but perhaps if one user completes a high 
percentage of a tile (of all the points, line, and polygons), that would be considered a 
"complete tile" for this purpose. As for another users then reworking the tile, 
this is another discussion point.

2)The test might be to review a number of tiles from previous projects and they 
need to comment on the quality of the digitalisation and complete any reworking 
that is needed. A minimum number of tiles need to be correct, (to a certain 
standard), in order to pass the test. In each test, a random subset of tiles 
for a complete selection of tiles could be used, so that not cheating could 
occur.

Additionally, these official validators could have a symbol next to their users names. 
This way, when a mapper asks for advise regarding their mapping, the mapper would know if 
a "validator" is responding or not.

Just an idea...

Regards,

Graham

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