Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
t; proof of verifying on a location to location basis. > > I would suggest to mark places as vicinities were OD happens. This could > be as a polygon, or it could be as a point location and we specify that OD > is happening within a X meters radius. I don't think precise spots (or > "personal spots") are feasible. > > In my city, the green areas esp the ones where you can't build because > it's a low-lying place that will flood in monsoons, are where OD happens, > and if you're walking by in evenings just after sunset or early mornings > you can easily tell from the smell. We generally do not find OD happening > in a place without greenery - where that happens (like the infamous Mumbai > train tracks) it's typically because there's no green areas left to go > into. Then, there's abandoned plots where nature has taken over. Those > could be marked with boundary. > > I liked Warin's inputs: > > .. 'abandoned:open_defecation_area=yes' may be appropriate. And it > would be of use to add the tag 'end_date=*' to signify the date of last use. > > - Addendum - > I'd like to bring in some ecology aspect to this as well, just to explain > how this is a complicated issue. All excreta on this planet is recyclable > and manure by nature. Insects and microbes are superbly efficient at this > job, as long as they have access to soil. Green patches continue to be ODAs > precisely because they're quite good at recycling. I had mentioned about > the smell at dawn/dusk : But it's not so much at all the other times of > day, and the same places remain usable year after year - guess why? Because > it's been "taken care of". > > But contrast this with the fact that where I live, what we're flushing > through toilets into our sewage lines is typically mixing in with drainage > from kitchens and washing machines (aka, detergents!) which then ensures > that the stuff does not bio-degrade, and continues being a problem, only > transported "far far away" so it becomes somebody else's problem. [Trigger > warning] I think it's technically correct to say that in many places of the > world, the people using toilets are causing more environmental damage (that > includes me) than the people defecating in the open, plus they are > outsourcing the problem and imposing it on people poorer than > them.[/Trigger warning] I know there's a lot of other things at play here > and of course I want us all to use toilets and I want these communities to > move to using toilets, but I want to acknowledge the reality and not shut > my eyes to it. I'm hopeful about solutions like eco-friendly toilets, > compost toilets, lattice-walled pits that mix the stuff with the soil, > those fantastic Australian reed beds, etc. > > Also, at least in my country's common culture there is a stigma attached > to being seen defecating once you're grown up and so people who have to OD, > prefer green/wooded areas that give them visual cover. Especially women. > I'm sharing all this because there are crazy activists in our civil society > circles who jump and say "Let's wipe out all the greenery, cement up the > whole place and then there won't be any OD problem here!". Can you > understand my horror at the prospect? That's only going to make the problem > a lot worse. > > Anyways, I have faith that accurately mapping these areas will help in > solving the issue holistically, because once it's brought up on a map, all > sides can engage constructively instead of abstractly. > > - Apologies for the Addendum - > -- > Cheers, > Nikhil VJ, Pune, India > https://nikhilvj.co.in > > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:33 PM wrote: > >> Send HOT mailing list submissions to >> hot@openstreetmap.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> hot-requ...@openstreetmap.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> hot-ow...@openstreetmap.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of HOT digest..." >> Today's Topics: >> >>1. Re: Open Defecation Area proposal (Warin) >>2. Re: Open Defecation Area proposal (Bob Kerr) >> >> >> >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> >> To: hot@openstreetmap.org >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:49:11 +1000 >> Subject: Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal >> I have raise this on the OSM tagging list. I have summarised the &g
Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
Hello all, I don’t usually participate in the discussions (though I try to follow them all), but this one I think is so interesting I’m grateful to be given the opportunity to share some thoughts. I think all the ideas that have been shared here are very interesting, as mapping ODAs would indeed provide very valuable information to communities. Regarding the mapping effort, in the recent past I’ve been analysing different cyber-activism campaigns in Africa. A very interesting one is #SelfieDéchets, that was originally started in Conakry as a way to complaint about rubbish in the streets of Conakry. The idea was followed by more people across Africa, therefore developing into a continental-scale campaign. It’s simple though effective: people took a selfie with the rubbish of their streets, in an effort to make the actual situation on the streets visible. What I’m thinking is if a similar campaign could be initiated by the HOT OSM as a way to involve communities and get real on-field data. A lot of people have access to smartphones, and collecting the photos, even if poorly geolocated, could be a good mapping starting point. Kind regards, Uxue De: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> Enviado el: miércoles, 11 de septiembre de 2019 7:11 Para: hot@openstreetmap.org Asunto: Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal On 11/09/19 14:48, Nikhil VJ wrote: Hi, While I'm not directly working on this at present, I do have friends who have been working on this issue a lot and have successfully moved several urban slum communities from OD (short for Open Defecation in this email) to using toilets. They too have been mapping ODAs in their projects as a starting point. I think marking ODAs on OpenStreetMap would be very useful. Here in India while we've had governments announcing drives to make cities, towns, villages open-defecation-free (ODF for short). We typically see just press statements like "we did it!" released without data support, and on ground there's still places where it's happening the next day. Mapping would be a great way for civil society to hold the government body accountable. Once you put a lat-long on an issue, objective verification is a straightforward process : Go there and smell (and watch your step!). And then once map locations are gathered, the government officials then have the burden of proof of verifying on a location to location basis. I would suggest to mark places as vicinities were OD happens. This could be as a polygon, or it could be as a point location and we specify that OD is happening within a X meters radius. I don't think precise spots (or "personal spots") are feasible. In my city, the green areas esp the ones where you can't build because it's a low-lying place that will flood in monsoons, are where OD happens, and if you're walking by in evenings just after sunset or early mornings you can easily tell from the smell. We generally do not find OD happening in a place without greenery - where that happens (like the infamous Mumbai train tracks) it's typically because there's no green areas left to go into. Then, there's abandoned plots where nature has taken over. Those could be marked with boundary. Where the waste is left to 'naturally mature' is one thing, where the waste is collected and taken away is a different thing. I think these should have separate tags. I liked Warin's inputs: > .. 'abandoned:open_defecation_area=yes' may be appropriate. And it would be > of use to add the tag 'end_date=*' to signify the date of last use. - Addendum - I'd like to bring in some ecology aspect to this as well, just to explain how this is a complicated issue. All excreta on this planet is recyclable and manure by nature. Insects and microbes are superbly efficient at this job, as long as they have access to soil. Green patches continue to be ODAs precisely because they're quite good at recycling. I had mentioned about the smell at dawn/dusk : But it's not so much at all the other times of day, and the same places remain usable year after year - guess why? Because it's been "taken care of". But contrast this with the fact that where I live, what we're flushing through toilets into our sewage lines is typically mixing in with drainage from kitchens and washing machines (aka, detergents!) which then ensures that the stuff does not bio-degrade, and continues being a problem, only transported "far far away" so it becomes somebody else's problem. [Trigger warning] I think it's technically correct to say that in many places of the world, the people using toilets are causing more environmental damage (that includes me) than the people defecating in the open, plus they are outsourcing the problem and imposing it on people poorer than them.[/Trigger warning] I know there's a lot of other things at play here and of course I want us all to use toilets and I want these communities
Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
vely instead of abstractly.
Mapping it is a good step to seeing how big the problem is. Campaigns
like "Put your poo in the loo" go some ways to helping. Mapping the loos
(amenity=toilet) aids finding the nearest loo.
- Apologies for the Addendum -
--
Cheers,
Nikhil VJ, Pune, India
https://nikhilvj.co.in
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:33 PM <mailto:hot-requ...@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Open Defecation Area proposal (Warin)
2. Re: Open Defecation Area proposal (Bob Kerr)
-- Forwarded message --
From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com <mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com>>
To: hot@openstreetmap.org <mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:49:11 +1000
Subject: Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
I have raise this on the OSM tagging list. I have summarised the
responses below.
On 08/09/19 21:04, Bob Kerr via HOT wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It has been a very long time since I have posted to the mailing
list.
> So please bear with me if I have landed in the wrong place.
>
> I was recently at a WASH conference (Water,Sanitation,hygiene). We
> were discussing Open Defecation, people going to the toilet in the
> open, specially in dense urban areas. Open defecation areas ODA are
> use by about 850 million people. If they each use 10 different
areas a
> year then that is 8.5 billion areas.
This logic appears flawed.
Does each person have their own individual ODA? In a dense urban
environment I would expect there to be a lack of space for this.
However,if there are individual ODAs, are they to be mapped as a
collective rather than each individual one?
Past ODAs would need to remain mapped .. but not as ODAs as that
implies
present use.
Not certain what to use here but the OSM life cycle tags may be of
use.
'abandoned:open_defecation_area=yes' may be appropriate.
And it would be of use to add the tag 'end_date=*' to signify the
date
of last use.
The above would reduce the number of areas to be mapped.
>
> The only way that this problem can start to be addressed is if
we have
> a map of the areas. A paper map made by MapOSmatic with theses
areas
> marked would be an excellent inspiration for local communities
to deal
> with the problem and would act as competition between local
towns and
> cities to be the cleanest
>
> I have checked with taginfo and there are a few examples on
defecation
> but nothing officially proposed.
Taginfo indicates 53 uses of 'watsan:open_defecation_area=yes', no
wiki.
Most use in Africa. just east nor east of Nairobi.
>
> My questions are. Do you think there would be support for this
on the
> humanitarian tile map render and who should I talk to about
adding it
> to the humanitarian style sheet if the proposal is accepted.
The 'watsan' appears to be irrelevant information. Possibly a
source? Or
an operator?
In any case the tag would be better as 'open_defecation_area=yes'. If
required other information can be added as subtags, such as a
comment, a
note etc.
>
> I believe I could get a lot of enthusiasm from WASH communities,
they
> would also become enthusiastic mappers because their first ever map
> was the broad street pump
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak
>
> Where they used a map to stop cholera
>
> The proposal would be simple node and area with picture of a person
> squatting. I would appreciate guidance as I create this.
>
> Many thanks for your time
>
> Bob
-- Forwarded message --
From: Bob Kerr mailto:lendin...@yahoo.co.uk>>
To: hot@openstreetmap.org <mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:32:30 +0100
Subject: Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
Thank you for posting to the tagging list, I have now joined that
list too
To clarify Open Defecation Areas ODA are usually piles of rubbish
Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
bject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of HOT digest..." > Today's Topics: > >1. Re: Open Defecation Area proposal (Warin) >2. Re: Open Defecation Area proposal (Bob Kerr) > > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> > To: hot@openstreetmap.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:49:11 +1000 > Subject: Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal > I have raise this on the OSM tagging list. I have summarised the > responses below. > > On 08/09/19 21:04, Bob Kerr via HOT wrote: > > Hi, > > > > It has been a very long time since I have posted to the mailing list. > > So please bear with me if I have landed in the wrong place. > > > > I was recently at a WASH conference (Water,Sanitation,hygiene). We > > were discussing Open Defecation, people going to the toilet in the > > open, specially in dense urban areas. Open defecation areas ODA are > > use by about 850 million people. If they each use 10 different areas a > > year then that is 8.5 billion areas. > This logic appears flawed. > Does each person have their own individual ODA? In a dense urban > environment I would expect there to be a lack of space for this. > However,if there are individual ODAs, are they to be mapped as a > collective rather than each individual one? > > Past ODAs would need to remain mapped .. but not as ODAs as that implies > present use. > Not certain what to use here but the OSM life cycle tags may be of use. > 'abandoned:open_defecation_area=yes' may be appropriate. > And it would be of use to add the tag 'end_date=*' to signify the date > of last use. > > The above would reduce the number of areas to be mapped. > > > > The only way that this problem can start to be addressed is if we have > > a map of the areas. A paper map made by MapOSmatic with theses areas > > marked would be an excellent inspiration for local communities to deal > > with the problem and would act as competition between local towns and > > cities to be the cleanest > > > > I have checked with taginfo and there are a few examples on defecation > > but nothing officially proposed. > > Taginfo indicates 53 uses of 'watsan:open_defecation_area=yes', no wiki. > Most use in Africa. just east nor east of Nairobi. > > > > > My questions are. Do you think there would be support for this on the > > humanitarian tile map render and who should I talk to about adding it > > to the humanitarian style sheet if the proposal is accepted. > > The 'watsan' appears to be irrelevant information. Possibly a source? Or > an operator? > In any case the tag would be better as 'open_defecation_area=yes'. If > required other information can be added as subtags, such as a comment, a > note etc. > > > > > I believe I could get a lot of enthusiasm from WASH communities, they > > would also become enthusiastic mappers because their first ever map > > was the broad street pump > > > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak > > > > Where they used a map to stop cholera > > > > The proposal would be simple node and area with picture of a person > > squatting. I would appreciate guidance as I create this. > > > > Many thanks for your time > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Bob Kerr > To: hot@openstreetmap.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:32:30 +0100 > Subject: Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal > Thank you for posting to the tagging list, I have now joined that list too > > To clarify Open Defecation Areas ODA are usually piles of rubbish in > unused spaces, they can be very large like a rubbish pit or small like an > abandoned doorway. They regularly get cleared but start up again. Women are > particularly vulnerable and sometimes use plastic bags to go in then throw > the bags in an ODA. ODAs are an indication that a proper dry toilet is > needed. > > A map would allow local communities to understand the problem in their > area. The inspiration from the 1854 broad street pump > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak > > Is one of mappings greatest successes. > > WatSan probably stands for Water/Sanitation > > I also stated 850 million practice Open Defication in 10 different > locations, but that was my guesstimate. > > I hope we can do this I think it will have a strong impact. > > Read details of ODA from unicef > > > https://www.unicef.org/wash/files/UNICEF_Game_plan_to_end_open_defecation_2018.pdf > > Thanks > > Bob > > > ___ > HOT mailing list > HOT@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
On 10/09/19 19:32, Bob Kerr via HOT wrote: Thank you for posting to the tagging list, I have now joined that list too To clarify Open Defecation Areas ODA are usually piles of rubbish in unused spaces, they can be very large like a rubbish pit or small like an abandoned doorway. They regularly get cleared but start up again. Women are particularly vulnerable and sometimes use plastic bags to go in then throw the bags in an ODA. ODAs are an indication that a proper dry toilet is needed. So, like a rubbish transfer station? Wikipedia suggests "defecating outside (in the open environment) rather than into a toilet. People may choose fields, bushes, forests, ditches, streets, canals or other open space for defecation" What I picture for the words "Open Defecation Area" is a farmers field being used by the farmers family to defecate in. That I am aware of. I am not aware of ODAs in urban situations. If the two are different then possibly they should have two different tags? The farmers field has no transfer, where as the urban one does? DTA- Defecation Transfer Area??? These probably would not be moved as frequently - similar to a rubbish bin? If they move frequently or are difficult to map due to a tenancy to hide them perhaps the area could be tagged as 'sanitation=defecation_transfer_area', compared to say 'sanitation=sewer', 'sanitation=septic_tank' or 'sanitation=night_soil' etc. A map would allow local communities to understand the problem in their area. The inspiration from the 1854 broad street pump https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak Is one of mappings greatest successes. WatSan probably stands for Water/Sanitation I think that is redundant information then. The word 'defecation' implies sanitation. I also stated 850 million practice Open Defication in 10 different locations, but that was my guesstimate. I hope we can do this I think it will have a strong impact. Read details of ODA from unicef https://www.unicef.org/wash/files/UNICEF_Game_plan_to_end_open_defecation_2018.pdf ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
Thank you for posting to the tagging list, I have now joined that list too To clarify Open Defecation Areas ODA are usually piles of rubbish in unused spaces, they can be very large like a rubbish pit or small like an abandoned doorway. They regularly get cleared but start up again. Women are particularly vulnerable and sometimes use plastic bags to go in then throw the bags in an ODA. ODAs are an indication that a proper dry toilet is needed. A map would allow local communities to understand the problem in their area. The inspiration from the 1854 broad street pump https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak Is one of mappings greatest successes. WatSan probably stands for Water/Sanitation I also stated 850 million practice Open Defication in 10 different locations, but that was my guesstimate. I hope we can do this I think it will have a strong impact. Read details of ODA from unicef https://www.unicef.org/wash/files/UNICEF_Game_plan_to_end_open_defecation_2018.pdf Thanks Bob ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
I have raise this on the OSM tagging list. I have summarised the responses below. On 08/09/19 21:04, Bob Kerr via HOT wrote: Hi, It has been a very long time since I have posted to the mailing list. So please bear with me if I have landed in the wrong place. I was recently at a WASH conference (Water,Sanitation,hygiene). We were discussing Open Defecation, people going to the toilet in the open, specially in dense urban areas. Open defecation areas ODA are use by about 850 million people. If they each use 10 different areas a year then that is 8.5 billion areas. This logic appears flawed. Does each person have their own individual ODA? In a dense urban environment I would expect there to be a lack of space for this. However,if there are individual ODAs, are they to be mapped as a collective rather than each individual one? Past ODAs would need to remain mapped .. but not as ODAs as that implies present use. Not certain what to use here but the OSM life cycle tags may be of use. 'abandoned:open_defecation_area=yes' may be appropriate. And it would be of use to add the tag 'end_date=*' to signify the date of last use. The above would reduce the number of areas to be mapped. The only way that this problem can start to be addressed is if we have a map of the areas. A paper map made by MapOSmatic with theses areas marked would be an excellent inspiration for local communities to deal with the problem and would act as competition between local towns and cities to be the cleanest I have checked with taginfo and there are a few examples on defecation but nothing officially proposed. Taginfo indicates 53 uses of 'watsan:open_defecation_area=yes', no wiki. Most use in Africa. just east nor east of Nairobi. My questions are. Do you think there would be support for this on the humanitarian tile map render and who should I talk to about adding it to the humanitarian style sheet if the proposal is accepted. The 'watsan' appears to be irrelevant information. Possibly a source? Or an operator? In any case the tag would be better as 'open_defecation_area=yes'. If required other information can be added as subtags, such as a comment, a note etc. I believe I could get a lot of enthusiasm from WASH communities, they would also become enthusiastic mappers because their first ever map was the broad street pump https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak Where they used a map to stop cholera The proposal would be simple node and area with picture of a person squatting. I would appreciate guidance as I create this. Many thanks for your time Bob ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal
Hi, It has been a very long time since I have posted to the mailing list. So please bear with me if I have landed in the wrong place. I was recently at a WASH conference (Water,Sanitation,hygiene). We were discussing Open Defecation, people going to the toilet in the open, specially in dense urban areas. Open defecation areas ODA are use by about 850 million people. If they each use 10 different areas a year then that is 8.5 billion areas. The only way that this problem can start to be addressed is if we have a map of the areas. A paper map made by MapOSmatic with theses areas marked would be an excellent inspiration for local communities to deal with the problem and would act as competition between local towns and cities to be the cleanest I have checked with taginfo and there are a few examples on defecation but nothing officially proposed. My questions are. Do you think there would be support for this on the humanitarian tile map render and who should I talk to about adding it to the humanitarian style sheet if the proposal is accepted. I believe I could get a lot of enthusiasm from WASH communities, they would also become enthusiastic mappers because their first ever map was the broad street pump https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak Where they used a map to stop cholera The proposal would be simple node and area with picture of a person squatting. I would appreciate guidance as I create this. Many thanks for your time Bob___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
