Re: [IAEP] [Grassroots-l] Planning for Sugar Camp Paris
Sorry about the other partial reply. I meant to hit save to gather my thoughts, instead I hit send. On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Christoph Derndorfer e0425...@student.tuwien.ac.at wrote: Dear all, with the beginning of Sugar Camp Paris only being 2 weeks away from us I thought it was time to get started on some planning. While the list of attendees (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Events/MiniCamp_Paris_2009/Attendees) is basically a guarantee for an awesome meetup already I think we should discuss what kind of tracks we want to have, who is going to do workshops and talks, what formats we want to have for these sessions, how we can include remote collaborators such as Yama, etc. I also haven't been quite able to find out what the exact plans of OLPC France for Saturday are, we should definitely try to coordinate that as well. For the schedule, I would like to try something complete different than the normal sit in a room and listen to scheduled talks. Instead, I would like to handle the organization similarly to how FudCons are run. I was extremely disappointed in our last two SugarCamps. Rather then coming together as a community with shared goals, I got the feeling that we were just a bunch of people gathered in a room; each trying to push their own agenda. The turning point for me was when a scheduled speaker said, 'God Damn It. This is my hour and now YOU have to listen to ME.' This time, I would like us to come together with no prearranged schedule or agenda. Instead, Saturday the 16th is OLPC France's day. We are there to learn what they are doing. Learn where the interests and goals of our various groups intersect. Learn how we can work together. Then, on Sunday and any additional days we have together we will run SugarCamp like FudCon. 1. We will have multiple meeting places. 2. The days will be divided into one hour time slots. 3. First thing each morning we will get together and people interested in leadings sessions will introduce themselves and their topic. 4. Then we will assign sessions to time slots and meeting places. At any point in the day participants will select which session is most useful and interesting to them. If you find a session uninteresting or not useful please feel free to get up and leave; attend a different session, go in the hall and hack, have lunch. Walter has started a topic request list at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Events/MiniCamp_Paris_2009/Schedule . Pleases add topics which you would like to discuss. we will sort them out on the days of the event. There are no travel stipends for this conference. Everyone who attends has a rather large person investment. So, no open laptops during sessions. This is a time for face to face interactions. david With regards to logistics I was wondering where we'll have the meetings, I assume the location that OLPC France is providing is only available on Saturday? Are there any hacker-spaces, apartments, whatever that we can occupy while we're there? I am counting on Sean's apartment. david Anyway, let me know what you think. Cheers, Christoph -- Christoph Derndorfer co-editor, olpcnews url: www.olpcnews.com e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com ___ Grassroots mailing list grassro...@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/grassroots ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Books Books Books
well, you're right, i will agree that expression in this medium is unlikely to resolve the differences...since i see that many who have subscribed to some of said books that you find so objectionable, have also done much for education, scientific and otherwise, but i think we are are bound to choose counter examples, due to our ideological filters, so i suggest we desist, at least in this forum i suspected the take no prisoners style of your argument as trolling for reaction ...and perhaps i have bitten ...but will no more From: Albert Cahalan [mailto:acaha...@gmail.com] Sent: Thu 4/30/2009 3:56 PM To: Costello, Rob R; iaep Subject: Re: [IAEP] Books Books Books Costello, Rob R writes: So refreshing to have Albert trolling again - waiting for us to rise to the bait If you really believe I'm trolling, why did you give me a win? Unfortunately for me, I had other reasons to post that email. I'm annoyed at the double standards here. If it looks like I'm trolling, then that's just an indication of how far apart we are in our beliefs. (and possibly style differences w.r.t. making clear arguments in a limited medium) This form someone who proposed a doom version for the XO at one point I was in fact thinking about DOOM when I sent that email. The double standards really offend me; I don't actually mind the depicted violence in either DOOM or the books. (inspired real violence is another matter entirely) I'll assume that you believe that DOOM is inappropriate. Any **fair** assesment would say the books are far worse. For example, suppose I wrote my own book with similar content. You'd be horrified by my tale of murder, war, sexism, torture, genocide, sexual mutilation, slavery, revenge, rape, gambling, prostitution, and so on. If such books are OK though, then obviously the mere killing of non-humans is fine. Compare... Death depicted in DOOM: hundreds of non-humans die Death depicted in book: most of humanity purposely drowned, etc. Real death caused by DOOM: probably none Real death caused by book: millions and millions (ongoing) Plus, in case it's an education project: Anti-science message in DOOM: flawed physics model Anti-science message in book: where do I even begin... Constructing content for DOOM: encouraged Constructing content for book: often punished, sometimes with death I wish I could suggest alternate books, but sadly all the good ones are still protected by copyright. (The Ancestor's Tale for example) The things that bug me most: double standards, ongoing REAL death, and the anti-science (anti-education) message. Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Grassroots-l] Planning for Sugar Camp Paris
Hi David, I was extremely disappointed in our last two SugarCamps. Rather then coming together as a community with shared goals, I got the feeling that we were just a bunch of people gathered in a room; each trying to push their own agenda. The turning point for me was when a scheduled speaker said, 'God Damn It. This is my hour and now YOU have to listen to ME.' I think we are in violent agreement here. Please go back and reread your response to my suggestion that we use protocols and I'll walk you through my thinking. First, I think its extraordinarily important that we appreciate what an effective organization we are. Especially in our distance communications. David really covers that well in his response to my protocols post. We are doing a lot of things right and getting good results. Releases, publicity and much positive interest and increasing attention. I share David's disappointment with the quality of our in person meetings. We are not unique in this. I am in a class that studies School Reform this semester and the teacher spends huge amounts of time observing in schools. He says that 90% of teacher shared planning time and team meetings are like watching paint dry. Its hard to get people who are used to working alone to effectively collaborate in face-to-face groups. It doesn't just happen on its own. However, when it does happen the results and the coefficient on the effects on learning are quite large. So schools are working on this problem with what they call Protocols. I'm not a huge fan of the name. But I am a huge fan of accepting the culture and language of our users and finding what in their existing culture can help us help them use Sugar better. We trying to go into schools and tell them to use Sugar change to constructivism, don't do things the way you have been doing them. That is not a huge recipe for long term success. I'd like to try whenever possible for us to also be learning from schools. In this case both Sugar Labs and Schools have a shared problem. We know our face-to-face group planning time is vital, but its expensive and we are dissatisfied with the results. Caroline ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] SOAS problems
As I keep saying on various Sugar related lists although you can install SOAS using Windows environment and software (liveusb-construct) you cannot so the same thing from a machine running Fedora. In Fedora the liveusb-construct runs just as it does under Windows but: 1. The usb stick does not boot to sugar or any other useful state. 2. The files put on the stick are not the same as those are the Windows prepared stick but several files are missing. I am working on a file list which I can send if anyone is interested, -- === America: born free and taxed to death. === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Experiences with Soas2-200904231400.iso
I tried using the latest snapshot with Smolt and have posted two hardware profiles on the hardware page. Both are older computers that cannot boot off a USB stick directly. I had first tried using the latest boot CD and while this seemed to boot OK I had no network access. I am assuming that this is because the OS on the CD is different than the one on the stick. I was able to resolve this using a boot diskette. I can't find the reference on the Wiki to this product, but it's a free as in beer diskette that lets you choose what device to boot from even if the BIOS doesn't support it. The problem with this diskette is that it will not recognize USB ports that are not connected to the mother board directly. So I can boot using the USB 1.1 ports on the front of my computers but not the 2.0 ports on PCI cards in the back of the computers. This was very slow but it did give me network access. One thing I didn't realize was that Smolt requires you to have a stick for each hardware profile you create. Once I figured this out I bought more sticks and redid my profiles in the Wiki. The first stick let me create a hardware profile and send it to the server, but Browse would not come up. I worked around this by saving the Terminal buffer to the Journal using the clipboard, then reverting the OS to the Beta while not overwriting home. I used the Beta to create the Wiki table entry. Before reverting I tested the snapshot and verified that networking and sound worked. I did not test Read Etexts because without Browse working I was unable to download it. The second stick went better. Everything worked, and I was able to download Read Etexts and View Slides and try them out. Read Etexts has a text to speech function that I wanted to test, and as in previous weeks the text highlighting lagged way behind the spoken words. This doesn't happen on every computer, but it does happen on both of mine. An HP Vectra at work does not have this problem. I want to add the profile for this machine to the Wiki but we use a special configuration script to set up a proxy server at work. I can do this for Mozilla on Linux but I don't know how to make this work with Browse, etc. in Sugar. If anyone has ideas I'd like to hear them. There is a fair amount of interest in TTS with highlighting even though Read Etexts is the only Activity that supports it, and it might be worthwhile to find out what the machines it works on have in common so we can make the gstreamer espeak plugin work reliably everywhere. In addition to Browse not being able to launch on the first stick I tried I had problems launching View Slides on the second stick. The week before I couldn't launch Tam Tam Mini or Hablar Con Sara on the Beta. These applications all work fine in my Fedora 10 Sugar test environment. It seems to be a general flakiness with unpacking Activities. I use 4 GB SanDisk Cruzer Micro sticks, a popular brand sold at Costco. James Simmons ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
I'm of the direct instruction camp. If skills and concepts are not build upon each other correctly, you will get kids that either learn a concept wrong (then they have to unlearn it) or fail and then feel like they are stupid. Having a kid with autism, I've seen both. Unfortunately, I've seen both with typical kids or even smart ones under poor teaching practices. This is especially true for teaching reading - Project Follow Through showed that direct instruction was by far the most effective in teaching period. What I'm suggesting is taking effective practices and putting them in a computer model. Using short videos or whatever (flash like animation) to teach concepts. I'd love to see students answer questions from the computer and use open source audio to text to ensure the student is following along and can at least properly use mathematical (or whatever subject) vocabulary. Verbal feedback also ensures the student is engaged and not just along for the ride. All this can be fun, and be presented in a systematic and sequencial way so as not to lose the student. By just throwing some skills at the student, that is not called teaching. You have to design a program or set of programs that can actually teach many skills and concepts. In other words, maybe have it to where the teacher actually adds in the curriculum with their sequence into a flat file or database but the program will take care of presentation due to its modularity. I'm thinking Typing Turtle, here. With Typing Turtle I can put in a sequence of teaching keys. I have 30 lessons but have only taught 5 keys. This is broken down for my son. Another kid could learn those 5 keys in maybe 10 lessons. Right now I would have to re-write the lessons for the other kid but you see where I am going with this - an amazing and stupendous program would adjust automatically for each kid - probably via analyzing thousands of kids. The books I listed are the bible of teaching. No kidding. They can be used by just about anyone to sequence teaching to ensure you don't skip steps and lose kids. It should help nerds (what I loving call you guys) when they program modules. How do you teach a skill or concept when you are not sure the student has prerequisite skills or knowledge? -Kathy _ From: iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org [mailto:iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of Bill Kerr Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:21 AM To: Kathy Pusztavari Cc: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Subject: [IAEP] maths instruction On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: How can this principle of customizable math be applied to framework development? By showing exemplars that change as you proceed through your teaching sequence. See Designing Effective Mathematical Instruction: A Direct Instruction Approach by Stein, Kinder, Silbert Carnine Theory of Instruction: Principles and Applications by Engelmann and Carnine Could you elaborate on this a little more please Kathy? ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: I'm of the direct instruction camp. If skills and concepts are not build upon each other correctly, you will get kids that either learn a concept wrong (then they have to unlearn it) or fail and then feel like they are stupid. Having a kid with autism, I've seen both. Unfortunately, I've seen both with typical kids or even smart ones under poor teaching practices. This is especially true for teaching reading - Project Follow Through showed that direct instruction was by far the most effective in teaching period. What I'm suggesting is taking effective practices and putting them in a computer model. Using short videos or whatever (flash like animation) to teach concepts. Strongly systematic approach is a good general principle for sciences and math. In my mind, the strength of computers is in helping kids tinker, construct, interact with microworlds and with each other, remix, tag, and otherwise be active. Learning happens through doing. Nobody learns anything deeply enough the first time they are exposed; understanding keeps growing and growing through time, as learners are ACTIVELY DOING something related to that concept. In math in particular, you need to have a very healthy balance of all levels of learning activities (see Bloom's Digital Taxonomy http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/Bloom%27s+Digital+Taxonomy), which computers definitely can support. Good math learning software should combine three things: the ability to create your own mathematical objects in scaffolded environments (with videos or animations that can be a part of scaffolding); the ability to share these objects with other learners in your local community of practice; and tools for connecting these example spaces or lesson environments with mathematics at large, including other topics and past traditions of doing math and other local communities - that is, with larger communities of mathematical practices. -- Cheers, MariaD Make math your own, to make your own math. http://www.naturalmath.com social math site http://www.phenixsolutions.com empowering our innovations ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Grassroots-l] OLPC in Kindergarten
My company has developed some software prototypes for early algebra that could work for 4-6 year olds. I would be interested in adopting these ideas for OLPC, but I'd need some collaborators for that. On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Sameer Verma sve...@sfsu.edu wrote: On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Christoph Derndorfer e0425...@student.tuwien.ac.at wrote: Hola Alejandro, I'm currently not aware of any other OLPC or Sugar projects working with children at that age. Most pilots and deployments currently seem to be focused on primary-school children (age 6 to 10). -- Cheers, MariaD Make math your own, to make your own math. http://www.naturalmath.com social math site http://www.phenixsolutions.com empowering our innovations ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
Bloom's Taxonomy reminds me of committees that never get anything done in the Life of Brian. Direct Instruction reminds me of the people that get in there and get the job done. Here is the Direct Instruction guide: http://www.zigsite.com/PDFs/rubric.pdf -Original Message- From: Maria Droujkova [mailto:droujk...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:48 AM To: Kathy Pusztavari Cc: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Subject: Re: [IAEP] maths instruction On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: I'm of the direct instruction camp. If skills and concepts are not build upon each other correctly, you will get kids that either learn a concept wrong (then they have to unlearn it) or fail and then feel like they are stupid. Having a kid with autism, I've seen both. Unfortunately, I've seen both with typical kids or even smart ones under poor teaching practices. This is especially true for teaching reading - Project Follow Through showed that direct instruction was by far the most effective in teaching period. What I'm suggesting is taking effective practices and putting them in a computer model. Using short videos or whatever (flash like animation) to teach concepts. Strongly systematic approach is a good general principle for sciences and math. In my mind, the strength of computers is in helping kids tinker, construct, interact with microworlds and with each other, remix, tag, and otherwise be active. Learning happens through doing. Nobody learns anything deeply enough the first time they are exposed; understanding keeps growing and growing through time, as learners are ACTIVELY DOING something related to that concept. In math in particular, you need to have a very healthy balance of all levels of learning activities (see Bloom's Digital Taxonomy http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/Bloom%27s+Digital+Taxonomy), which computers definitely can support. Good math learning software should combine three things: the ability to create your own mathematical objects in scaffolded environments (with videos or animations that can be a part of scaffolding); the ability to share these objects with other learners in your local community of practice; and tools for connecting these example spaces or lesson environments with mathematics at large, including other topics and past traditions of doing math and other local communities - that is, with larger communities of mathematical practices. -- Cheers, MariaD Make math your own, to make your own math. http://www.naturalmath.com social math site http://www.phenixsolutions.com empowering our innovations ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
Meta-note: I think this discussion has been one of the best educationally-focused discussions of late. Please keep it coming! Martin pgppnOzckX4PX.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
We read a book in my class this semester: The New Taxonomy of Educational Objectives by Marzoano and Kendall. Its an attempt to update Blooms Taxonomy. Lots of good stuff in there but still has a committee feel to it. However, taxonomy is more about what you teach and pedagogy is about how. I really haven't run into anyone who doesn't think there is a time to teach that is some belief in direct instruction. Right now I'm reading Studio Learning and even in art studio classes direct instruction, lectures and demonstrations, have a role. The difference is how the information is tied to student work. In a studio class you use the information taught immediately. The more I learn about learning theory the more I see it as mix and match, not black and white. On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: Bloom's Taxonomy reminds me of committees that never get anything done in the Life of Brian. Direct Instruction reminds me of the people that get in there and get the job done. Here is the Direct Instruction guide: http://www.zigsite.com/PDFs/rubric.pdf -Original Message- From: Maria Droujkova [mailto:droujk...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:48 AM To: Kathy Pusztavari Cc: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Subject: Re: [IAEP] maths instruction On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: I'm of the direct instruction camp. If skills and concepts are not build upon each other correctly, you will get kids that either learn a concept wrong (then they have to unlearn it) or fail and then feel like they are stupid. Having a kid with autism, I've seen both. Unfortunately, I've seen both with typical kids or even smart ones under poor teaching practices. This is especially true for teaching reading - Project Follow Through showed that direct instruction was by far the most effective in teaching period. What I'm suggesting is taking effective practices and putting them in a computer model. Using short videos or whatever (flash like animation) to teach concepts. Strongly systematic approach is a good general principle for sciences and math. In my mind, the strength of computers is in helping kids tinker, construct, interact with microworlds and with each other, remix, tag, and otherwise be active. Learning happens through doing. Nobody learns anything deeply enough the first time they are exposed; understanding keeps growing and growing through time, as learners are ACTIVELY DOING something related to that concept. In math in particular, you need to have a very healthy balance of all levels of learning activities (see Bloom's Digital Taxonomy http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/Bloom%27s+Digital+Taxonomy), which computers definitely can support. Good math learning software should combine three things: the ability to create your own mathematical objects in scaffolded environments (with videos or animations that can be a part of scaffolding); the ability to share these objects with other learners in your local community of practice; and tools for connecting these example spaces or lesson environments with mathematics at large, including other topics and past traditions of doing math and other local communities - that is, with larger communities of mathematical practices. -- Cheers, MariaD Make math your own, to make your own math. http://www.naturalmath.com social math site http://www.phenixsolutions.com empowering our innovations ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
The problem is that people do not understand Direct Instruction (DI as in SRA curriculum or curriculum that follows the DI Rubric). Direct Instruction INCLUDES lectures (with choral responding to ensure students are engaged), small groups, activities, projects, etc. In using Direct Instruction, students use the information taught immediately, then concepts are built on top of each other or built to more difficult levels. In addition, you don't learn a concept then never see it again - you see it for a while because you want to maintain learned items. Constructivism wants the child to discover a concept. Have you seen this in action? About 40-60% of the kids don't get it and end up feeling stupid. And that is why I cried for 2 weeks in my student teaching - I knew these kids could get it but they were never taught in a way that they could GET IT. Is the education system there for: 1. The 13-20% that absolutely need well sequenced, explicit instruction (think special ed) 2. The 40-60% that may not be as motivated, they are not the brightest bulbs, and/or may require some direct instruction 3. The 20% that can learn if they are put in a closet (AKA Closet Kids). Very smart - 1 trial learners The reason to computerize is that you are now able to differentiate instruction. You can reach all kids at their speed and level. If you think about it, it is the best reason to have Sugar used to develop curriculum rather than just a bunch of activities that are a hit or miss on some state/country's standards. BTW, I was just informed that the state of Oregon has licensed me as a pre-school though 8th grade teacher. Not sure if that is a good thing for Oregon or not ;) If you don't know, Oregon is very much so a constructivist state. And we have the biggest Direct Instruction conference in the world here every year. The irony of it. I'm not against constructivism. I'm just against it be used as the first line of teaching. It allows a teacher to blame the student for not understanding. When you do DI, it really is the fault of the teacher for not helping the student get it. DI has a bunch of research based tools to ensure students get it: 1. Is the pacing correct (too fast, too slow) 2. Is the sequence correct (don't assume kids have prerequisite knowledge - ensure your teaching roadmap is valid) 3. Do you have good classroom management where there is no wasted time in transitions, rules are understood and practiced, and kids feel safe 4. Is the information presented in an interesting way. Even though we have scripts, we need to also understand what is being taught why, the direction the teaching is going, and how to act or punch it up 5. Ensure that students get small bits of teaching in 3-4 various tracks of information. In other words, don't spend 1 hour teaching fractions. Teach a fraction concept for 10 minutes, work a little on math facts (5 min), work on estimations (10 min), and one other track. This is one day's worth of math. Mix and match but they thread in a sequencial manner (think roadmap). Well what do you know, computer programs can do all that. -Kathy _ From: iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org [mailto:iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of Caroline Meeks Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:38 AM To: Kathy Pusztavari Cc: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Subject: Re: [IAEP] maths instruction We read a book in my class this semester: The New Taxonomy of Educational Objectives by Marzoano and Kendall. Its an attempt to update Blooms Taxonomy. Lots of good stuff in there but still has a committee feel to it. However, taxonomy is more about what you teach and pedagogy is about how. I really haven't run into anyone who doesn't think there is a time to teach that is some belief in direct instruction. Right now I'm reading Studio Learning and even in art studio classes direct instruction, lectures and demonstrations, have a role. The difference is how the information is tied to student work. In a studio class you use the information taught immediately. The more I learn about learning theory the more I see it as mix and match, not black and white. On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: Bloom's Taxonomy reminds me of committees that never get anything done in the Life of Brian. Direct Instruction reminds me of the people that get in there and get the job done. Here is the Direct Instruction guide: http://www.zigsite.com/PDFs/rubric.pdf -Original Message- From: Maria Droujkova [mailto:droujk...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:48 AM To: Kathy Pusztavari Cc: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Subject: Re: [IAEP] maths instruction On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: I'm of the direct instruction camp. If skills and concepts are not build upon each other correctly, you will get kids that either learn a concept wrong (then they have to unlearn
Re: [IAEP] [Grassroots-l] Planning for Sugar Camp Paris
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi David, I was extremely disappointed in our last two SugarCamps. Rather then coming together as a community with shared goals, I got the feeling that we were just a bunch of people gathered in a room; each trying to push their own agenda. The turning point for me was when a scheduled speaker said, 'God Damn It. This is my hour and now YOU have to listen to ME.' I think we are in violent agreement here. Please go back and reread your response to my suggestion that we use protocols and I'll walk you through my thinking. Actually, I believe we are in complete agreement. We just differ in implementation and enforcement:) First, I think its extraordinarily important that we appreciate what an effective organization we are. Especially in our distance communications. David really covers that well in his response to my protocols post. We are doing a lot of things right and getting good results. Releases, publicity and much positive interest and increasing attention. The rest is of the post is going to be a long meandering digression into community building, group dynamics and setting mutual goals. If you are not to such things, the following is no more than psycho babble which has no more effect on your daily life than what Michelle Obama wore yesterday. 1. The protocols (like bylaw and trademark policies) themselves don't really matter. Every minute spent working on them is a sunk cost... because it take time and emotion away from improving the Sugar Platform. What matters is that we set them and move on to other things. 2. The effectiveness of the Sugar Labs did not just happen. Many people have worked to create and establish the community norms necessary to encourage effective communication and collaboration. I share David's disappointment with the quality of our in person meetings. We are not unique in this. I am in a class that studies School Reform this semester and the teacher spends huge amounts of time observing in schools. He says that 90% of teacher shared planning time and team meetings are like watching paint dry. Its hard to get people who are used to working alone to effectively collaborate in face-to-face groups. It doesn't just happen on its own. However, when it does happen the results and the coefficient on the effects on learning are quite large. I care that in two weeks the participants who make the effort to to attend SugarCamp Paris have the opportunity to spend useful time together. So schools are working on this problem with what they call Protocols. I'm not a huge fan of the name. But I am a huge fan of accepting the culture and language of our users and finding what in their existing culture can help us help them use Sugar better. We trying to go into schools and tell them to use Sugar change to constructivism, don't do things the way you have been doing them. That is not a huge recipe for long term success. I'd like to try whenever possible for us to also be learning from schools. In this case both Sugar Labs and Schools have a shared problem. We know our face-to-face group planning time is vital, but its expensive and we are dissatisfied with the results. 1. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs knows more about their area of specialty then I do. 2. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs is more passionate about their area of specialty than I am. 3. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs is willing to spend more time solving problem in their area of interest than I am. If we accept the notion that the participants are the valuable assets in Sugar Labs, managements job is try to provide the participants with the resource they need to work effectively and then get out of the way. When participants arrive at SugarCamp they will already bring ideas of what they want learn about, talk about, and accomplish. The FudCon approach gives _control_ of the conference back to the participants. The participants set the agenda, the participants decide what sessions to attend, the participants decide what sessions are useful and which are not. There is no man (or mother-ship) setting the agenda and planing the priorities. If three smart passionate people go off and work on a problem, that is much more valuable than 30 bored and angry people fighting for 'airtime.' Three dedicated and motivated people are all that it takes to form a self-sustaining team around a project or feature. I am going to ask you to make a leap up faith and trust me on this one. If it doesn't work we can try something else next time. SugarCamps, like releases, don't need to be perfect, they just need to keep getting better. david ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: Bloom's Taxonomy reminds me of committees that never get anything done in the Life of Brian. Direct Instruction reminds me of the people that get in there and get the job done. Here is how I see these issues. Bloom's Taxonomy is a part of a research and design framework, and direct instruction is a pedagogical methodology. In general, frameworks help people analyze and plan, and methodologies help people to implement (get things done). Typically, you need to work with both methodologies and frameworks for sizable research and development projects. Depending on the project's goals, you make or choose frameworks and methodologies suitable to the goals. Constructivism, in particular, is a group of framework for studying how people learn. To contrast direct instruction with something, one can choose a different teaching methodology, for example, the discovery method popular in the sixties and seventies but not as much anymore, or the Socratic method still popular in some circles after a couple of millenia. Relationships between frameworks and methodologies are complex. For example, one can use constructivist frameworks to study how students learn under direct instruction methodologies. One can also use behaviorist or information theory frameworks to study learning under the same methodologies. It's not a one-to-one correspondence. There is a lot of confusion about the matter, because people use theories and frameworks not only for research, but also as ammo in policy wars. Also, sometimes the same person or group works on developing theories and methodologies, and they become twined in people's minds through their authors. In general, relationships between theory and practice are complicated and often frustrating in education, just as they are in medicine and other human-centered fields. The important thing is for everybody to be able to match frameworks and methodologies to their goals. For example, at some point I made a taxonomy of computer learning environments focusing specifically on users' power over representations, because my goals had to do with authoring, and creating representations is a good measure of authoring. I think it may be of interest to people here: http://wikieducator.org/User:MariaDroujkova/UserPower Life of Brian is wonderful - one of my favorite movies. Very quotable. - You are all individuals! - Yes, we are all individuals! - this could be used to snark recitation, but I happen to find the technique very useful. Kathy, congratulations on your license!!! What grades do you plan to teach next? -- Cheers, MariaD Make math your own, to make your own math. http://www.naturalmath.com social math site http://www.phenixsolutions.com empowering our innovations ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Marketing] Fwd: [Sur] sugarlabs.org: sugerencia
Again, we need at least basically consistent navigation. Christian told me earlier this week he would probably have time to work on that this weekend. We could advance more rapidly if no one is suprised when Christian adapts my April 3rd suggestion: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/marketing/2009-April/000742.html thanks Sean 2009/4/30 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org: Paola is a teacher from .uy and is reminding us how confusing is for Sugar users that the activities page opens in a new window. Could we please change it to open in the existing window? Thanks, Tomeu -- Forwarded message -- From: Paola Bruccoleri pbruccol...@adinet.com.uy Date: 2009/4/30 Subject: [Sur] sugarlabs.org: sugerencia To: olpc-...@lists.laptop.org Hola... he estado navegando con una xo y buscando actividades desde el sitio de sugarlabs... Si entro al sitio www.sugarlabs.org y luego elijo la opción activities, se abre una nueva ventana, interior, donde es un poco más engorroso moverse en ella porque se reduce el espacio. Claro que si uso una pc común y navego con firefox, es útil porque se me abre una nueva pestaña, pero en la xo no queda muy usable. Claro que se podría entrar directamente a http://activities.sugarlabs.org ya que no es difícil recordarlo, pero el sitio aparece en idioma inglés por defecto. Queda un poco incómodo y poco visible el que esté para elegir el idioma abajo de todo a la derecha para poderlo cambiar.. Es sólo una simple sugerencia, para mejorarle las cosas a los usuarios.. chauu === A/P Paola Bruccoleri Arrambide San José de Mayo - San José URUGUAY Usuario Linux Counter: #353833 (desde 29-04-04) Blog: http://paolabruccoleri.reducativa.com Wiki: http://wiki.reducativa.com Material sobre las XO: http://www.reducativa.com/wiki/index.php?title=Proyecto_OLPC_-_Plan_Ceibal Cartillas XO Sugar 8.2: http://www.reducativa.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cartillas_sobre_uso_de_la_XO Visita el Portal Educativo http://www.reducativa.com.uy ___ Lista olpc-Sur olpc-...@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur ___ Marketing mailing list market...@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
Yes Maria, I'm sure you are correct that I'm mixing up pedagogy (methodology) with framework. They seem to fit together like hands to gloves. That said, Direct Instruction (DI) is also a framework. It's like Prego - it's all in there. In addition, behaviorism, or Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) and DI share much in common including research bases. I'm a Board Certified Associate Behavior Analyst (BCABA) and to take the exam for certification it does have several questions on Direct Instruction. I will not teach in the public sector. I will, however, volunteer or create a afterschool or summer school program. I'd love to use sugar (SoaS) to test some of the activities and do some research. We need more educational research even if it is very small. '- You are all individuals! - Yes, we are all individuals!' Funny. It took a couple seconds until I got it :) -Kathy -Original Message- From: iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org [mailto:iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of Maria Droujkova Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:04 AM To: Kathy Pusztavari Cc: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Subject: Re: [IAEP] maths instruction On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: Bloom's Taxonomy reminds me of committees that never get anything done in the Life of Brian. Direct Instruction reminds me of the people that get in there and get the job done. Here is how I see these issues. Bloom's Taxonomy is a part of a research and design framework, and direct instruction is a pedagogical methodology. In general, frameworks help people analyze and plan, and methodologies help people to implement (get things done). Typically, you need to work with both methodologies and frameworks for sizable research and development projects. Depending on the project's goals, you make or choose frameworks and methodologies suitable to the goals. Constructivism, in particular, is a group of framework for studying how people learn. To contrast direct instruction with something, one can choose a different teaching methodology, for example, the discovery method popular in the sixties and seventies but not as much anymore, or the Socratic method still popular in some circles after a couple of millenia. Relationships between frameworks and methodologies are complex. For example, one can use constructivist frameworks to study how students learn under direct instruction methodologies. One can also use behaviorist or information theory frameworks to study learning under the same methodologies. It's not a one-to-one correspondence. There is a lot of confusion about the matter, because people use theories and frameworks not only for research, but also as ammo in policy wars. Also, sometimes the same person or group works on developing theories and methodologies, and they become twined in people's minds through their authors. In general, relationships between theory and practice are complicated and often frustrating in education, just as they are in medicine and other human-centered fields. The important thing is for everybody to be able to match frameworks and methodologies to their goals. For example, at some point I made a taxonomy of computer learning environments focusing specifically on users' power over representations, because my goals had to do with authoring, and creating representations is a good measure of authoring. I think it may be of interest to people here: http://wikieducator.org/User:MariaDroujkova/UserPower Life of Brian is wonderful - one of my favorite movies. Very quotable. - You are all individuals! - Yes, we are all individuals! - this could be used to snark recitation, but I happen to find the technique very useful. Kathy, congratulations on your license!!! What grades do you plan to teach next? -- Cheers, MariaD Make math your own, to make your own math. http://www.naturalmath.com social math site http://www.phenixsolutions.com empowering our innovations ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Grassroots-l] Planning for Sugar Camp Paris
David, Given that we have a one-day event (assuming the OLPC France agenda is addressing a different constituency, how would be best build in the notion of period caucusing to revisit the agenda that occurs in the multi-day FUDCON meetings? -walter On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:34 PM, David Farning dfarn...@sugarlabs.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi David, I was extremely disappointed in our last two SugarCamps. Rather then coming together as a community with shared goals, I got the feeling that we were just a bunch of people gathered in a room; each trying to push their own agenda. The turning point for me was when a scheduled speaker said, 'God Damn It. This is my hour and now YOU have to listen to ME.' I think we are in violent agreement here. Please go back and reread your response to my suggestion that we use protocols and I'll walk you through my thinking. Actually, I believe we are in complete agreement. We just differ in implementation and enforcement:) First, I think its extraordinarily important that we appreciate what an effective organization we are. Especially in our distance communications. David really covers that well in his response to my protocols post. We are doing a lot of things right and getting good results. Releases, publicity and much positive interest and increasing attention. The rest is of the post is going to be a long meandering digression into community building, group dynamics and setting mutual goals. If you are not to such things, the following is no more than psycho babble which has no more effect on your daily life than what Michelle Obama wore yesterday. 1. The protocols (like bylaw and trademark policies) themselves don't really matter. Every minute spent working on them is a sunk cost... because it take time and emotion away from improving the Sugar Platform. What matters is that we set them and move on to other things. 2. The effectiveness of the Sugar Labs did not just happen. Many people have worked to create and establish the community norms necessary to encourage effective communication and collaboration. I share David's disappointment with the quality of our in person meetings. We are not unique in this. I am in a class that studies School Reform this semester and the teacher spends huge amounts of time observing in schools. He says that 90% of teacher shared planning time and team meetings are like watching paint dry. Its hard to get people who are used to working alone to effectively collaborate in face-to-face groups. It doesn't just happen on its own. However, when it does happen the results and the coefficient on the effects on learning are quite large. I care that in two weeks the participants who make the effort to to attend SugarCamp Paris have the opportunity to spend useful time together. So schools are working on this problem with what they call Protocols. I'm not a huge fan of the name. But I am a huge fan of accepting the culture and language of our users and finding what in their existing culture can help us help them use Sugar better. We trying to go into schools and tell them to use Sugar change to constructivism, don't do things the way you have been doing them. That is not a huge recipe for long term success. I'd like to try whenever possible for us to also be learning from schools. In this case both Sugar Labs and Schools have a shared problem. We know our face-to-face group planning time is vital, but its expensive and we are dissatisfied with the results. 1. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs knows more about their area of specialty then I do. 2. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs is more passionate about their area of specialty than I am. 3. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs is willing to spend more time solving problem in their area of interest than I am. If we accept the notion that the participants are the valuable assets in Sugar Labs, managements job is try to provide the participants with the resource they need to work effectively and then get out of the way. When participants arrive at SugarCamp they will already bring ideas of what they want learn about, talk about, and accomplish. The FudCon approach gives _control_ of the conference back to the participants. The participants set the agenda, the participants decide what sessions to attend, the participants decide what sessions are useful and which are not. There is no man (or mother-ship) setting the agenda and planing the priorities. If three smart passionate people go off and work on a problem, that is much more valuable than 30 bored and angry people fighting for 'airtime.' Three dedicated and motivated people are all that it takes to form a self-sustaining team around a project or feature. I am going to ask you to make a leap up faith and trust me on this one. If it doesn't work we can try something
[IAEP] Fwd: [Free-Textbooks] May 20 Open Textbook Meetup
From the OER Consortium... -- Forwarded message -- From: Judy Baker bakerj...@foothill.edu Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:30 PM Subject: [Free-Textbooks] Open Textbook Meetup Invitation To: freetextbo...@freeculture.org Open Textbook Meetup Invitation The Community College Open Textbook Project ( http://www.collegeopentextbooks.org), California Digital Marketplace ( http://www.21st-digitalmarketplace.com/index.html), and the Open Knowledge Foundation (http://www.okfn.org/ ) invite those with an interest in repositories for open textbooks to a meeting on Wednesday, May 20th at 1:30 - 3:30 pm PDT (2130-2330 GMT or 2230-0030 CET). In particular, we want to coordinate metatagging, interoperability, accessibility, and repository efforts for open textbooks. Tenative Agenda * Welcome and Meeting Purpose: To facilitate coordination of metatagging, interoperability, accessibility, and repository efforts for open textbooks * Introductions: Name of attendee, Organizational affiliation, Organization's goals and needs * Identify and summarize common goals and needs * Share metatagging, interoperability, and accessibility guidelines for OER repositories * Target 20 high-enrollment general education (transferable) courses for open textbook development How to Attend You can attend in-person on the Foothill College campus or virtually via internet/teleconference (meeting will be archived for access later). * To attend in-person, please contact Jacky Hood, CCOT Project Director (hoodjackyl...@fhda.edu) for a temporary parking permit and directions. * For virtual attendance, see the Login Guide ( http://www.onfer.org/pdfEL/Participants_Students-Connect_to_Your_Online_Sessions.pdf ) and Participant Guide ( http://www.onfer.org/pdfEL/Participants_Students-Quick_Reference_Overview.pdf ). Virtual Attendance Instructions Teleconference Dial your telephone conference line: (888) 886-3951 Enter your passcode: 228240 Internet Go to www.onfer.org. Click the Participant Log In button under the Meet Confer logo Locate your meeting and click Go. Fill out the form and enter the password: 228240 Judy Baker, Dean Foothill Global Access Distance and Mediated Learning Foothill College 650.949.7749 bakerj...@foothill.edu www.foothillglobalaccess.org http://oerconsortium.org If you love knowledge, set it free! ___ freetextbooks mailing list freetextbo...@freeculture.org http://freeculture.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/freetextbooks ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] maths instruction
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Kathy Pusztavari ka...@kathyandcalvin.com wrote: I will not teach in the public sector. I will, however, volunteer or create a afterschool or summer school program. I'd love to use sugar (SoaS) to test some of the activities and do some research. We need more educational research even if it is very small. Do you know any of the people involved in Math Clubs and Math Circles? The Berkley folks just made a very nice web site: http://www.mathcircles.org/ I think programs of that sort are great for research, because of flexibility and low stakes. I did a class on Scratch in a local homeschool coop this Winter. I am working on designing a programming-based algebra program for this Fall, as well. I want to collect more detailed data from it, because this time around, I have some research questions. '- You are all individuals! - Yes, we are all individuals!' Funny. It took a couple seconds until I got it :) It's the episode where Brian's on the balcony trying to convince the crowd to think for themselves, while they just repeat whatever he says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQqq3e03EBQ A clash of a teaching method and a learning method, I think. Or maybe not. It's funny, anyway. -- Cheers, MariaD Make math your own, to make your own math. http://www.naturalmath.com social math site http://www.phenixsolutions.com empowering our innovations ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Grassroots-l] Planning for Sugar Camp Paris
My guess base on attendees currently listed. We will have sessions in a number of different, often over lapping, tracks: Developer Marketing Education Community Building Business models/funding Developers will break down into separate sessions such as: Options for supporting existing deployment. Goals for .86 API stability ... Marketing will include General marketing strategy Engaging developers ... And so forth... If we have two or three sessions at a time there will be 3 to 5 people per session. Since this is a single Day, I suggest we make it a marathon. -- Meet at 8am to plan sessions and have coffee. Start the sessions at 9am with each running an hour. Break for lunch. Go until 5 or 6 pm Break for dinner. Spend the evening informally talking over what we worked on and overall project goals and exchanging war stories. -- david On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: David, Given that we have a one-day event (assuming the OLPC France agenda is addressing a different constituency, how would be best build in the notion of period caucusing to revisit the agenda that occurs in the multi-day FUDCON meetings? -walter On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:34 PM, David Farning dfarn...@sugarlabs.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi David, I was extremely disappointed in our last two SugarCamps. Rather then coming together as a community with shared goals, I got the feeling that we were just a bunch of people gathered in a room; each trying to push their own agenda. The turning point for me was when a scheduled speaker said, 'God Damn It. This is my hour and now YOU have to listen to ME.' I think we are in violent agreement here. Please go back and reread your response to my suggestion that we use protocols and I'll walk you through my thinking. Actually, I believe we are in complete agreement. We just differ in implementation and enforcement:) First, I think its extraordinarily important that we appreciate what an effective organization we are. Especially in our distance communications. David really covers that well in his response to my protocols post. We are doing a lot of things right and getting good results. Releases, publicity and much positive interest and increasing attention. The rest is of the post is going to be a long meandering digression into community building, group dynamics and setting mutual goals. If you are not to such things, the following is no more than psycho babble which has no more effect on your daily life than what Michelle Obama wore yesterday. 1. The protocols (like bylaw and trademark policies) themselves don't really matter. Every minute spent working on them is a sunk cost... because it take time and emotion away from improving the Sugar Platform. What matters is that we set them and move on to other things. 2. The effectiveness of the Sugar Labs did not just happen. Many people have worked to create and establish the community norms necessary to encourage effective communication and collaboration. I share David's disappointment with the quality of our in person meetings. We are not unique in this. I am in a class that studies School Reform this semester and the teacher spends huge amounts of time observing in schools. He says that 90% of teacher shared planning time and team meetings are like watching paint dry. Its hard to get people who are used to working alone to effectively collaborate in face-to-face groups. It doesn't just happen on its own. However, when it does happen the results and the coefficient on the effects on learning are quite large. I care that in two weeks the participants who make the effort to to attend SugarCamp Paris have the opportunity to spend useful time together. So schools are working on this problem with what they call Protocols. I'm not a huge fan of the name. But I am a huge fan of accepting the culture and language of our users and finding what in their existing culture can help us help them use Sugar better. We trying to go into schools and tell them to use Sugar change to constructivism, don't do things the way you have been doing them. That is not a huge recipe for long term success. I'd like to try whenever possible for us to also be learning from schools. In this case both Sugar Labs and Schools have a shared problem. We know our face-to-face group planning time is vital, but its expensive and we are dissatisfied with the results. 1. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs knows more about their area of specialty then I do. 2. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs is more passionate about their area of specialty than I am. 3. _Everyone_ involved in Sugar Labs is willing to spend more time solving problem in their area of interest than I am. If we accept the notion that the participants are the valuable assets in Sugar Labs, managements job is try to
Re: [IAEP] [Marketing] Fwd: [Sur] sugarlabs.org: sugerencia
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 08:14:06PM +0200, Sean DALY wrote: Again, we need at least basically consistent navigation. I'm surprised such a high (worth a month's delay before a volunteer can work on designing a solution) bar was set for such a simple (remove target=_blank), obviously useful (works in Sugar's own browser, requested by a developer and an educator and probably other) and improvable (can be removed later) feature. We could advance more rapidly if no one is suprised when Christian adapts my April 3rd suggestion: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/marketing/2009-April/000742.html I don't know that I understand your suggestion(s), unfortunately (but I don't have to, I guess). I think you're suggesting consistent navigation among all four sites, by redesigning...just the navigation section on all four (activities, wiki, www, download .sugarlabs.org)? Just the sugarlabs.org site? The main thing that struck me about the email you referenced was the amount of discussion about the sitemap. As I'm probably not the target audience you may ignore this data point, but for what its worth the main thought I had after reading your email was: I've never used a sitemap. If I can't find it, I use google. It seems relevant that to get Fedora or Ubuntu or Firefox, the first hit on Google for each has a prominent link to download, and: - Ubuntu's download link is prominent and central, and resulting page a) opens within the same window; and b) with similar look and feel. The top-right navigation section reminded me a lot of what I thought you might have meant in your message (see below). Quite central is some text *explaining* Ubuntu. - Fedora's download link is prominent but but not central; I thought this was bad until I realized the central link *explained* Fedora, which is an interesting tradeoff that might be adoptable for www.sugarlabs.org. - Firefox's download link is prominent and central. Barely (but still) above the fold, with a huge-lettered title, is a section *explaining* Firefox. thanks Sean Martin PS - thanks for all the work; I don't mean to sound ungrateful (hopefully at worst this sounds brusqe)...just trying to communicate as explicitly as possible to waste as little (more) of your time... pgpQybUttV0ez.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Marketing] Fwd: [Sur] sugarlabs.org: sugerencia
Alas, if I had the technical chops to code what is necessary, I would have done so already :-( the fundamental problem is that several parts of the SL site are traps for unsophisticated users: they can get in, but they can't get back out and can't get back to the homepage. The absence of links between the site sections also interferes with our referencing, but we've mitigated that by linking the wiki logo to the site homepage. Counter-intuitive for users who were used to the wiki being the main site, but perfectly normal for first-time users. I myself manage to find most of what I need on the SL site sections (except for dark corners of the wiki where I have posted stuff and have no idea how to ever find it again) and when in trouble I google with the site: option. Designing a slick, integrated site can come later as far as I'm concerned (other priorities more important) but we could go to single-window tomorrow if every site section had a link to the homepage, which they do not :-( Sean On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 08:14:06PM +0200, Sean DALY wrote: Again, we need at least basically consistent navigation. I'm surprised such a high (worth a month's delay before a volunteer can work on designing a solution) bar was set for such a simple (remove target=_blank), obviously useful (works in Sugar's own browser, requested by a developer and an educator and probably other) and improvable (can be removed later) feature. We could advance more rapidly if no one is suprised when Christian adapts my April 3rd suggestion: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/marketing/2009-April/000742.html I don't know that I understand your suggestion(s), unfortunately (but I don't have to, I guess). I think you're suggesting consistent navigation among all four sites, by redesigning...just the navigation section on all four (activities, wiki, www, download .sugarlabs.org)? Just the sugarlabs.org site? The main thing that struck me about the email you referenced was the amount of discussion about the sitemap. As I'm probably not the target audience you may ignore this data point, but for what its worth the main thought I had after reading your email was: I've never used a sitemap. If I can't find it, I use google. It seems relevant that to get Fedora or Ubuntu or Firefox, the first hit on Google for each has a prominent link to download, and: - Ubuntu's download link is prominent and central, and resulting page a) opens within the same window; and b) with similar look and feel. The top-right navigation section reminded me a lot of what I thought you might have meant in your message (see below). Quite central is some text *explaining* Ubuntu. - Fedora's download link is prominent but but not central; I thought this was bad until I realized the central link *explained* Fedora, which is an interesting tradeoff that might be adoptable for www.sugarlabs.org. - Firefox's download link is prominent and central. Barely (but still) above the fold, with a huge-lettered title, is a section *explaining* Firefox. thanks Sean Martin PS - thanks for all the work; I don't mean to sound ungrateful (hopefully at worst this sounds brusqe)...just trying to communicate as explicitly as possible to waste as little (more) of your time... ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Marketing] Fwd: [Sur] sugarlabs.org: sugerencia
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:42:32PM +0200, Sean DALY wrote: Alas, if I had the technical chops to code what is necessary, I would have done so already :-( [...] Designing a slick, integrated site can come later as far as I'm concerned (other priorities more important) but we could go to single-window tomorrow if every site section had a link to the homepage, which they do not :-( I'm happy to submit the HTML changes to www.sugarlabs.org, the wiki and download logo home links already take one back to www.sl.o, so that just leaves activities.sl.o, right? the fundamental problem is that several parts of the SL site are traps for unsophisticated users: they can get in, but they can't get back out and can't get back to the homepage. Yeah but now they can get *to* the wiki or activities in order to get lost trying to get back, right (I thought that was the argument, but maybe I misunderstood)? Sean Martin pgp98DSarTwEz.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Marketing] Fwd: [Sur] sugarlabs.org: sugerencia
Martin Dengler wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:42:32PM +0200, Sean DALY wrote: Alas, if I had the technical chops to code what is necessary, I would have done so already :-( [...] Designing a slick, integrated site can come later as far as I'm concerned (other priorities more important) but we could go to single-window tomorrow if every site section had a link to the homepage, which they do not :-( I'm happy to submit the HTML changes to www.sugarlabs.org, the wiki and download logo home links already take one back to www.sl.o, so that just leaves activities.sl.o, right? I'm working on the front end for ASLO, I don't know who is going to put the navigation code into the php templates, I could do it, but I haven't really touched them as of yet. If someone is planning on putting an additional navigation, please send me a message to coordinate. Otherwise: The ul id=nav-access is probably not the best place to put it (even though it's the most logical). I would prefer it placed in div id=page-title and have a ul with an id named=sugar-nav (or similar) created. Also, if someone could ad the class sugar to the body tag of ASLO - or give me approval to do so, it would be appreciated : ) . Josh the fundamental problem is that several parts of the SL site are traps for unsophisticated users: they can get in, but they can't get back out and can't get back to the homepage. Yeah but now they can get *to* the wiki or activities in order to get lost trying to get back, right (I thought that was the argument, but maybe I misunderstood)? Sean Martin ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
