Re: [IAEP] SOAS Write problem
On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 11:22:24PM -0400, Gerald Ardito wrote: Caroline, I tried to do just that. I cannot erase the version of Write that's there, and I cannot install the new one. It downloads just fine and appears in the Journal, but will not install. Could you enable debug mode[1], run sugar session, try to delete old Write, install new Write and post shell.log. [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/BugSquad/Get_Logs Any ideas? Gerald On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald, You should be able to take your master stick, delete Write, goto the Activities.sl.o, download the correct version and all should be well, at least for write. I haven't actually heard from Ham yet, there is a major flood in his area so there maybe a delay. On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.comwrote: Caroline, No problem. Just let me know when we have a working image. I am really close to deploying SOAS on our Dells! Gerald On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Thank you all for your help! I'll alert Ham who is our build master and if his computer is above water after all the flooding in the Manila area I'm sure he'll fix it soon. I'm sure this bug is in our GPA build too so thank you Gerald for testing!!! On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.comwrote: Hi Gerald, Many thanks for the feedback. On 27 Sep 2009, at 02:52, Gerald Ardito wrote: Gary, This image came from Caroline Meeks at Solution Grove. It came as part of a version of SOAS that she put together for me. Gerald OK, looks like a SoaS build mistake. Caroline, just a quick ping. Checking activities.sugarlabs.org, it tells me Write-63 was the last version compatible with Sugar 0.84.x. I believe Aleksey started working on the new 0.85.x toolbar code as of version 64, breaking compatibility with earlier versions of Sugar: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addons/versions/4201 Regards, --Gary -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax -- Aleksey ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] SOAS Write problem
Hamilton, Thanks. I'll try that. And thanks for your support with this project. Gerald On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Hamilton Chua hamilton.c...@gmail.comwrote: Gerald, It seems the kickstart file I use installed the write activity via rpm. I don't know if this is possible from a usb stick but it might be worth a try. Can you try to remove the rpm by doing rpm -e sugar-write and then try to install the activity ? Aleksey pointed me to recent changes to the kickstart files which allow one to specify the versions of the activities compatible with sugar 0.84. I will have a new spin out with the problem hopefully corrected soon. Thanks, Hamilton On Sun, 2009-09-27 at 23:22 -0400, Gerald Ardito wrote: Caroline, I tried to do just that. I cannot erase the version of Write that's there, and I cannot install the new one. It downloads just fine and appears in the Journal, but will not install. Any ideas? Gerald On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald, You should be able to take your master stick, delete Write, goto the Activities.sl.o, download the correct version and all should be well, at least for write. I haven't actually heard from Ham yet, there is a major flood in his area so there maybe a delay. On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com wrote: Caroline, No problem. Just let me know when we have a working image. I am really close to deploying SOAS on our Dells! Gerald On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Thank you all for your help! I'll alert Ham who is our build master and if his computer is above water after all the flooding in the Manila area I'm sure he'll fix it soon. I'm sure this bug is in our GPA build too so thank you Gerald for testing!!! On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Gerald, Many thanks for the feedback. On 27 Sep 2009, at 02:52, Gerald Ardito wrote: Gary, This image came from Caroline Meeks at Solution Grove. It came as part of a version of SOAS that she put together for me. Gerald OK, looks like a SoaS build mistake. Caroline, just a quick ping. Checking activities.sugarlabs.org, it tells me Write-63 was the last version compatible with Sugar 0.84.x. I believe Aleksey started working on the new 0.85.x toolbar code as of version 64, breaking compatibility with earlier versions of Sugar: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addons/versions/4201 Regards, --Gary -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] SOAS Write problem
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 07:53:48PM +0800, Hamilton Chua wrote: Gerald, It seems the kickstart file I use installed the write activity via rpm. I don't know if this is possible from a usb stick but it might be worth a try. sugar-0.86 should proper handle this situation, if there are rpm-installed activity and xo-installed in ~/Activities, sugar will use .xo version(and let user erase this activity, after sugar restart, rpm activity will be back revealed). Can you try to remove the rpm by doing rpm -e sugar-write and then try to install the activity ? Aleksey pointed me to recent changes to the kickstart files which allow one to specify the versions of the activities compatible with sugar 0.84. I will have a new spin out with the problem hopefully corrected soon. Thanks, Hamilton On Sun, 2009-09-27 at 23:22 -0400, Gerald Ardito wrote: Caroline, I tried to do just that. I cannot erase the version of Write that's there, and I cannot install the new one. It downloads just fine and appears in the Journal, but will not install. Any ideas? Gerald On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald, You should be able to take your master stick, delete Write, goto the Activities.sl.o, download the correct version and all should be well, at least for write. I haven't actually heard from Ham yet, there is a major flood in his area so there maybe a delay. On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com wrote: Caroline, No problem. Just let me know when we have a working image. I am really close to deploying SOAS on our Dells! Gerald On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Thank you all for your help! I'll alert Ham who is our build master and if his computer is above water after all the flooding in the Manila area I'm sure he'll fix it soon. I'm sure this bug is in our GPA build too so thank you Gerald for testing!!! On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Gerald, Many thanks for the feedback. On 27 Sep 2009, at 02:52, Gerald Ardito wrote: Gary, This image came from Caroline Meeks at Solution Grove. It came as part of a version of SOAS that she put together for me. Gerald OK, looks like a SoaS build mistake. Caroline, just a quick ping. Checking activities.sugarlabs.org, it tells me Write-63 was the last version compatible with Sugar 0.84.x. I believe Aleksey started working on the new 0.85.x toolbar code as of version 64, breaking compatibility with earlier versions of Sugar: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addons/versions/4201 Regards, --Gary --
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] A Virtual Box solution that works with Sticks
Hi, I'm trying to understand this. Is it possible to use the booting method Bill found, where we boot one kernal in Virtual Box, then that Linux mounts the USB and then it boots the Sugar kernal on the stick? On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.comwrote: Hi Dave, On 24 Sep 2009, at 01:55, Dave Bauer wrote: Last I checked virtualbox could not boot from USB on a Mac. This may have changed in a more recent version. Yep correct, that is still the case**. But, we were not talking about booting USB. Just mounting it and using the data-store from there, tweaking a VM for deployment 'should' be small change. This of course runs into all the 'what version of Sugar is installed in the VM' vs. 'what version of data-store is installed on the stick' but for a small deployment with control over both, and with specific HW needs, I don't see this as an issue. Additionally, if some data-store validation checks could be put in place I could even see this being a very positive feature for Soas and/ or upstream Sugar; an ideal little solvable issue for the two to resolve in a way that would benefit any deployments with old or not currently compatible hardware (where either the OS or a VM has to be run from the physical machine). ** unless you put the whole damn vdi on the stick and forgo the idea of booting the stick independently as a normal OS, though there could be room to investigate booting of a small partition with a reliable host OS that did nothing but dive right into the VM for those cases. Seems doable, but scary. Would much rather spend effort in finding a way to boot a USB directly – likely requires providing a Mac only image, though they can quite happily boot from USB, they just require correct boot formats (EFI for Intel Macs) but current Linux's seems well behind that curve. Most other HW manufacturers are still on old BIOS set-ups, Macs can support this for booting, Boot Camp does just this, but not for booting from USB devices unfortunately. Regards, --Gary Dave On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Bill, On 24 Sep 2009, at 00:17, Bill Bogstad wrote: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Sure, you could just link the ~/default/datastore directory on the VM to the matching location on the stick. I'm not sure how the pretty way to do this would be (likely at this moment in time would be just tweaking the VMs to assume the stick was there). Pop stick in, then run the VM would be the workflow once set-up. From a future stand point, you'd likely want to push upstream for a feature where Sugar checked for valid (and correct version) data-stores on start-up (perhaps with a UI if more than one valid data-store was found), so any external media device, or perhaps even mounted network volume could become the default data-store for that session. Could you clarify what you are suggesting? Most VMs (including VirtualBox) typically use large files within the host environment to provide the contents of virtual disks to the OS running under virtualization. By default VirtualBox uses a format that dynamically allocates in the real filesystem as the guest OS actually writes to the virtual disk. I don't think this file is going to be directly compatible with any file (or filesystem image) that SoaS is storing on a USB stick. If you were thinking of something else, please let me know. Yes, I routinely use the Shared Folders feature for VirtualBox on the Mac :-) Every thing Sugar flavour I work on resides there for easy access between different VMs. VirtualBox treats this as a device (after installing guest additions) so after a reboot I run: sudo mount -o uid=500 -t vboxsf name_you_give_share name_of_intended_mount_point ...which should should do the trick. Also be aware that you need to tell VirtualBox it's allowed to use USB, I think it defaults to allow, but you can also filter for named devices if that makes more sense in a deployment. I would also want to sanity check the shut down process to make sure we didn't bork users sticks at the end of a session. Ping if you'd like to work this through, should be easy enough for me to set up a test cycle here if you think this is valuable. Regards, --Gary ___ Sugar-devel mailing list sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Dave Bauer d...@solutiongrove.com http://www.solutiongrove.com ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
Albert, The original question was about developing Activities for a classroom assignment, with the idea that these Activities could be widely distributed. With these two constraints Python is the winner by default. If you need to write Activities for school you need good documentation on how to use the API's, etc. We have that for Python, the rest not so much. Also, they want to put their Activities on ASLO and make them useable by as many people as possible. Python makes that possible, other options not so much. I don't agree with your performance comparison of Java and Python. If I wrote Read Etexts in both languages my guess is that the Python version would perform better and use less memory than the Java/Swing version. That's because in the Python version Python is just used as a glue language and the heavy lifting is done in GTK. In Java/Swing ALL the work would be done in Java. I have my own gripes about Python but since my own requirements are similar to those Caryl was asking for Python is what I use. James Simmons Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 00:43:26 -0400 From: Albert Cahalan acaha...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [IAEP] Which Language? To: cbige...@hotmail.com, Benjamin M. Schwartz bmsch...@fas.harvard.edu, iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Message-ID: 787b0d920909272143n4a70b259vda1efef8425e4...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Benjamin M. Schwartz writes: There are other options, such as HTML+Javascript, Squeak, and C/C++, but they each suffer from some combination of reduced functionality, problematic cross-platform guarantees, and increased difficulty of programming. Let's not ignore Python, which suffers plenty: 1. Python has no language standard. The best you can claim is that the language is defined by /usr/bin/python on some random system. There is a history of breaking compatibility with new releases. There exist several Python interpreters actually, which don't run the same code. Python version 3 will probably break your code. 2. Python is a joke regarding performance. You know how Java is often several times slower than C? Java beats Python by 20x or 30x. 3. Python being easy is **your** opinion. (and you're wrong) 4. Python has reduced functionality because it lacks inline assembly. That particular language feature is the door to everything. IMHO there is a limit to the value of universally usable, but if you want to push that goal you can. The most stable interfaces are the CPU instructions, the Linux system call interface, and the X11 protocol. Bring along any interpreter you need, and statically link all the binary executables. If you need Python 2, include a copy. Be sure it doesn't need any /lib/*.so files to run; you can check this by running ldd on the binary. FWIW, plain C is an excellent choice. It's the easiest language. Unless you tolerate FORTRAN or assembly, it's also the fastest. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
Jim Simmons, in part: The original question was about developing Activities for a classroom assignment, with the idea that these Activities could be widely distributed. If (big IF) J will run on XO, labs is a built in feature of J. Ken Iverson had his stroke at 83 while at the keyboard composing a lab AFAIK. J is free: http://jsoftware.com Gerry ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:08:56AM -0400, gerry_lowry (alliston ontario canada (705) 250-0112) wrote: Jim Simmons, in part: The original question was about developing Activities for a classroom assignment, with the idea that these Activities could be widely distributed. If (big IF) J will run on XO, labs is a built in feature of J. Since you don't know if J can run on the XO, J is not a good thing to recommend for developing activities on the XO, right? Gerry Martin pgpFasM9s8BSk.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
Martin Dengler: Since you don't know if J can run on the XO, J is not a good thing to recommend for developing activities on the XO, right? Wrong. J is worth investigating. J is so cross platform and so powerful that it is a lifetime useful tool for teaching and for thought. J, like APL, sadly does not get the publicity that it deserves. I would not be surprised if Roger Hui were willing to create an implementation of J for the XO if that were necessary. Gerry ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] A Virtual Box solution that works with Sticks
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Hi, I'm trying to understand this. Is it possible to use the booting method Bill found, where we boot one kernal in Virtual Box, then that Linux mounts the USB and then it boots the Sugar kernal on the stick? I'm not even proposing that. :-) I would have to think about it a while to see if there were even any advantages. I think the fundamental problem here is that the people who are commenting (including myself) have never seen the actual problem occur. The hardware/software resources available as well as the minimum functionality (use cases) are still hazy to me as well. Could you clarify what you want to accomplish and leave anything out that isn't essential? For example, does it have to be VirtualBox (or even virtualization)? If something isn't required don't mention it except in the list of resource you know you have available to solve your problem. Thanks, Bill Bogstad P.S. I'm cc'ing this note to s...@lists.sugarlabs.org as it clearly is about SoaS Strawberry and has literally nothing to do with Sugar development. It's a more generic 'my machine won't boot Linux' problem. Where the Linux in question is SoaS Strawberry. I'm leaving sugar-devel on the cc line for now, but will probably drop it if this thread continues and certainly will for any future threads on similar topics. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:36:03AM -0400, gerry_lowry (alliston ontario canada (705) 250-0112) wrote: Martin Dengler: Since you don't know if J can run on the XO, J is not a good thing to recommend for developing activities on the XO, right? Wrong. J is worth investigating. The question was what language can be used now. You're answering a different question. Gerry Martin pgpR33c3c1uCT.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Announcing the creation of a SoaS Decision Panel
Hi all, In Friday's SLOBs meeting, we approved the creation of a decision panel, with the following people eligible to join the panel: Sebastian Dziallas Luke Faraone Martin Dengler Bill Bogstad Faisal Khan Benjamin M. Schwartz Samuel Klein Sean Daly Tabitha Roder Caryl Bigenho Daniel Drake Abhishek Indoria (If anyone else had volunteered but is missing from the list, the group is welcome to add them in too.) The approved scope for the Decision Panel is large. We decided to describe it as: Investigate the situation of how SoaS should be treated by Sugar Labs, and related questions, including answers to the following: * Should Sugar Labs be a GNU/Linux distributor, rather than just an upstream producing Sugar releases? * Should SL be neutral about distributions containing Sugar, and refuse to endorse one over another? * Should 'Sugar on a Stick' be a phrase that SL asks its community to avoid using unless they refer to the SoaS-Fedora distribution? * Any other question the Decision Panel deems required to provide an answer to the original question: Is the current SoaS going to be the primary way Sugar Labs distributes a Sugar-centric GNU/Linux distribution? How the panel proceeds to organize themselves and answer these questions is entirely up to them. Once a report is ready, SLOBs will review it and vote on ratifying its suggestions. Thanks, - Chris, for SLOBs. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org One Laptop Per Child ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Announcing the creation of a SoaS Decision Panel [organization process started]
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Chris Ball c...@laptop.org wrote: Hi all, In Friday's SLOBs meeting, we approved the creation of a decision panel, with the following people eligible to join the panel: Can I take it that SLOB is not formally requesting a two week deadline to report back as was suggested on the wiki minutes? Thanks, Bill Bogstad P.S. We have already started organizing ourselves based on the minutes. We will conduct any public discussions in the s...@lists.sugarlabs.org mailing list with a subject line tagged with [DP]. Individuals not on the panel who want to follow those discussions should subscribe to that list. We may make announcements/request for input to other lists, but will not conduct discussions in them or in all likelihood consider comments that are only sent to those lists. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [support-gang] Which Language?
On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 00:00, Caryl Bigenho cbige...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi All, On Thursday, Ben wrote in the IAEP list: My feeling is that the most important thing we can do in this area is to make it easy to write Activities that are intrinsically cross-platform. To borrow a phrase, one way to do this is to choose languages, and interpreters, that are incapable of expressing platform dependencies. So I have a question for you folks. I am in discussion with a college CS prof who would like to teach beginning programming with XOs. He is interested in trying several different languages, but I am interested in pointing him toward the one that would result in the most universally usable Activities with the idea that his students would be able to write Activities as class projects that could then be widely distributed. It would be great if they would be, as Ben suggests, cross-platform. By that, I mean usable on the XO-1, XO-1.5, SoaS, live CD, etc. for PCs and Intel Macs. Of course my dream ideal is that they would also be able to be run on the old PowerPC Macs that are still widely used in the public schools, but that is probably too much too hope for. So...the question is, what should I tell him? My own reasons for joining the Python chorus: 1. It comes preinstalled on the XO, preinstalled on many, if not all, Linux distributions, preinstalled on Mac OS X, and is a fairly easy get for Windows. The arguments that others have put forth for various languages -- Smalltalk / Squeak / Etoys / Scratch / FORTRAN / C / Java generally are not quite as universally built-in, though they can be obtained for most systems. (Java's sorta, kinda there: Sometimes you get the whole deal, sometimes you get only the run-time environment by default and have to fetch the other pieces.) Also, as far as Linux is concerned, it's nice to have a language has packaged for the package management system used by Linux. Some of the above are not available in well-maintained packages, and have to be cobbled into the computer. 2. The classic first program: Hello, world in Python is: print Hello, world Or, for the nit-pickers out there, in Python 1.x, Python 2.x, it is as stated above. In Python 3.x, it's: print (Hello, world) Hard to get much simpler than that and remain readable to people who are fluent in languages which read left-to-right, top-to-bottom -- i.e. non-Perl programmers and non-Lisp programmers. ;-) 3. An interactive interpreter: You can either choose to create your program in some text editor and then feed the saved code to the interpreter (which is the way Activities run), or you can start the interpreter, and have a conversation with it: Each line is interpreted when you press ENTER. This is great for testing out small ideas quickly. Other languages have ways of doing this but are rarely as simple. 4. High school teachers teaching a first language class, NASA and Google all seem to like Python well enough, which suggests a certain degree of scalability. 5. Many -- dare I say most -- Activities are written in Python. So, one would have good models to work from by examining existing Activities. The other languages proffered all have a place in the world, but given the initial problem specs: 1. Easy 2. Write Activities 3. Cross-platform I think if you were to write your activities in any of the other languages, in order to make them work in a Sugar environment, you'd still need to have the Python interpreter handy. You would not need any of the other interpreters / compilers unless you were writing in those languages. So, within Sugar, Python can live w/o Java et al, but Java et al cannot live w/o Python. I think. I think Python's the closest match. -- Ubuntu Linux DC LoCo Washington, DC http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Announcing the creation of a SoaS Decision Panel [organization process started]
Bill Bogstad wrote: [...] We will conduct any public discussions in the s...@lists.sugarlabs.org mailing list with a subject line tagged with [DP]. [...] Suggestion: As a favor to the mailing list archive searcher of the future, consider a tag [in addition to,instead of] DP. The DP process may be repeated for different issues in the future. -- Sean McGrath s...@manybits.net ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] decision panel: waste of time
I've looked at some initial discussion on the decision panel (I don't even have time to read all of it) and I think it's time to go back to the start. For each question: who's asking? is it a reasonable question? have we definitely failed to reach community consensus? what effects will the answer have? Sebastian asked the original question: Is the current SoaS going to be the primary way Sugar Labs distributes a Sugar-centric GNU/Linux distribution? After communicating with Sebastian by IRC and email (me being skeptical and curious why this question was even being asked), I learned that Sebastian is not trying to make his SoaS project be the king-of-all-distributions (he encourages competition) but simply wants to know if it is safe to call his project Sugar on a stick. The original question doesn't matter to him, or perhaps we can say that the original question was developed to becoming a simple question of project naming. So that leads to what I believe is the only question with any importance: Should 'Sugar on a Stick' be a phrase that SL asks its community to avoid using unless they refer to the SoaS-Fedora distribution? Who's asking? Sebastian Is it a reasonable question? Yes. There has been some confusion about use of the name: - Sugar on a stick has been a concept within the community for a long time, only recently has it become a solid, mainstream implementation (and even then, there was still a strong element of concept in the marketing) - Non-Fedora distros have also started making sugar distros that run from live USB, and although they haven't been named Sugar on a stick, I recall at least a few mentions from people in the community referring to them that way - Another party registered the domain name sugaronastick.com Have we definitely failed to reach community consensus? Yes, there seem to be 2 common conflicting viewpoints: - Sebastian has done great work, let's give him the name and get any other projects to use new names - No, lets reserve the name as a marketing term, for clarity of message. (even though Sebastian can use it for now) It's trivial to find examples of these conflicting viewpoints in the threads that have emerged so far What effects will the answer have? Sebastian has indicated that it's important to him, and a decision here would affect how he names his work and possibly where he hosts it, and which umbrella organisation he sees his work underneath. The other questions all fail the tests in my opinion - nobody is asking them for any practical purpose, and the results from a decision panel will not have any effect. For example, the decision panel could say that SL should focus on being a distro builder, but what does that even mean? All SL work is volunteer based, that answer isn't going to magically make people start doing that work where they weren't before. I also think that any kind of decision delegation should be done by a small group, in a short time, and with only a small amount of extra community input (the decision was handed off to a panel precisely because the community could not reach consensus). Let's finish the politics quickly and move back to real work... remember our goal: education? Daniel p.s. I'm still not clear if this decision panel has been formed for every undecided question that might possibly form in the future, or if it will be torn down after this particular session? ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] SOas waste of time
Geez! lets reserve the SOaS name as a marketing term, for clarity of message. (even though Sebastian can use it for now) and others +1 ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
Martin wrote: The question was what language can be used now. You're answering a different question. Possibly. Depends on whether J can be used now (or soon). I do not know the answer. Let us assume the answer is no. Then the next relevant J question is whether Roger Hui et al would provide a port for the XO; if yes, the next question is would that port be available in a reasonable time frame? What I do know is that J is a great teaching tool and would meet many needs and can with relative ease present lessons (labs) in both natural language neutral and natural language specific forms according to implementation used by the designer of a given lab: +/ 2 2NB. natural language neutral 4 add =. +/ NB. natural language specific [English] add 2 2 4 Gerry ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] decision panel: waste of time
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:05:36AM +0545, Daniel Drake wrote: I've looked at some initial discussion on the decision panel (I don't even have time to read all of it) and I think it's time to go back to the start. Why are you prolonging this even more? SLOBs decided that a Decision Panel was worth it. Clearly they are not interested in wasting their time and (y)ours. [other questions] We can debate them on the SoaS list, to at least avoid wasting IAEP's time. Daniel Martin pgpa6SrcePc9M.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] SOas waste of time
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 01:38:09PM -0500, Yamandu Ploskonka wrote: [an opinion] +1 Please in the name of all that furthers education, stop voting on things that don't require voting :). http://kernelslacker.livejournal.com/125203.html If you're just saying me too, I thought that died out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_too Martin PS - yes, I have lost by replying to this email. I'm ok with that. pgpWdhfx3NHUH.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 02:57:48PM -0400, gerry_lowry (alliston ontario canada (705) 250-0112) wrote: Martin wrote: The question was what language can be used now. You're answering a different question. Possibly. Depends on whether J can be used now (or soon). Only if possibly means yes. You're answering a different question to what language can be [usefully] used now. There are no J bindings for dbus. I can't find any J FFIs. One can't use J to write Sugar activities. J seems interesting enough, but not for a teacher now who wants to teach people now to write Sugar activites now on an XO. Gerry Martin pgpDtWJ4M9E29.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Sugar 0.86 on Trisquel 3.0, ready for testing
Thanks to the packages Aleksey made last week, we have been able to build a new Trisquel+Sugar iso, this one using the latest Sugar on top of the latest Trisquel, and also fixing the bugs from the first release. It works nicely on wired or wireless computers, the installer is now Sugar themed, the flash video support was improved with the latest gnash, and much more details. It worked pretty nice in our tests, so we are calling it a release candidate. Our build environment can generate the iso in one command -it takes roughly 5 minutes starting from scratch-, so we could easily compile weekly -or even nightly- builds if that helps Sugar developers. You can find the new image at: http://devel.trisquel.info/trisquel-sugar_3.0RC_i686.iso We have just published a more detailed article announcing the project to the public at http://trisquel.info/en/trisquel-sugar , including some screenshots and instructions for testers. signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
If all you have is a hammer, it's time to put another nail in the J coffin. Although the J executable is a free (as in beer) download from Jsoftware (the only place I found a downloadable J), with regard to the source code, the J page at http://www.jsoftware.com/source.htm states: Fees Jsoftware licenses source for all the Jsoftware binaries. There are several factors in determining the cost of source licenses. Primary is the source itself: J Engine (portable C); Windows GUI support (C++); and Unix GUI support (Java). Secondary is the scope of use: internal; distributed products; and competitive (to Jsoftware) products. And finally the platforms: Windows; Unix; PocketPC; etc. The price range is from $10,000 to $400,000. Regular updates to our current source levels are available for separate update fees. Sorry 'bout that commission. ;-) -- Ubuntu Linux DC LoCo Washington, DC http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Xoos Special Interest Group
As promised, we have started work on the XO operating system SIG at Sugar Labs. The SIG pages are at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Xoos . Based on feedback from the current developers working in this space, the most valuable starting point will be to start making daily Xoos builds. The next step will be to work with others in this space to create a release cycle which includes alphas, betas, and final releases. These releases will enable more users and testers to participate in the development cycle. Initially, communication will happen on the de...@lists.laptop.org, sugar-...@lists.sugarlabs.org, and fedora-olpc-l...@redhat.com mailing lists. We have received initial support from the OLPC contributor program in the form of developer machines. david ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Announcing the creation of a SoaS Decision Panel [organization process started]
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 14:05, Sean McGrath s...@manybits.net wrote: Bill Bogstad wrote: We will conduct any public discussions in the s...@lists.sugarlabs.org mailing list with a subject line tagged with [DP]. Suggestion: As a favor to the mailing list archive searcher of the future, consider a tag [in addition to,instead of] DP. The DP process may be repeated for different issues in the future. Maybe [DP-1] or [SDP-1]? -- Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Which Language?
On 28.09.2009, at 17:36, gerry_lowry (alliston ontario canada (705) 250-0112) wrote: J, like APL, sadly does not get the publicity that it deserves. A fate it shares with other nice languages. Like, err, Smalltalk. I would not be surprised if Roger Hui were willing to create an implementation of J for the XO if that were necessary. Please report back when this is done. Worked for, err, Smalltalk. - Bert - ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] inquiry on constructionism advantages
I have received an inquiry on implementing constructionism from a high official in the Bolivian government. Since my opinion may be biased :-), I request you help us with clear, simple and please objective answers (no vapor-stuff), if at all possible Yamandu The short answer is probably that there is no evidence that constructionism raises standardised test scores. It is probably better to look at constructivism, which shares many of the features of constructionism, and is much more researched, again I expect that there is little or no evidence. The problem is that standardised tests only can test a subset of what students should learn, that which can be easily tested. The best way, in the short term, to raise test scores is to rote teach solutions exactly matching the kinds of questions found in tests. Unfortunately that produces students who are good at those tests and not much else. There is a lot of evidence to support this, I recall a study where a class was taught the solution to the 7 bridges* problem. They were later given an isomorphic problem, having the same solution but not about bridges, none of the students was able to solve it. I recommend reading Toward a design theory of problem solving David H. Jonassen Good teachers recognise the merits of constructivist and instructionist approaches and adjust their teaching style to the context. Performance Based Assessments, Authentic Assessment and portfolios are intended to be better aligned to constructivist outcomes, (Marsh C. Becoming a teacher) but are harder to standardise than other assessments because they are teaching higher level skills (see Blooms Taxonomy) than those that are normally tested in standardised tests. Sorry probably not the answer you needed. Tony PS Its interesting to examine standardised tests to see what level of Blooms Taxonomy they test. They generally work at the lower 3 levels of skill in Blooms Taxonomy. There is a cat and mouse game between examiners and teachers. Examiners think up novel questions from left field which test higher level skills, teachers then teach rote solutions to their students in following years, thus converting the question and similar ones of that type into tests of lower level skills * 7 bridges problem, maybe it was 5? Anyway bridges connect islands and you have to cross each bridge only once. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] inquiry on constructionism advantages
Hi Yama, Try this reference it has actual data that supports constructivism Wenglinsky, H. (2005) Chp. 4 in Using Technology Wisely: the keys to success in schools, Columbia University Teachers College Press, NY, 60-77, *CP * * * * * On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Yamandu Ploskonka yamap...@gmail.comwrote: I have received an inquiry on implementing constructionism from a high official in the Bolivian government. Since my opinion may be biased :-), I request you help us with clear, simple and please objective answers (no vapor-stuff), if at all possible 1) How do constructionist pupils do on standardized tests, such as University entrance exams. (please inform about other demographic situations besides children of highly trained scholars - most Bolivian kids do not fit THAT bracket, alas) 2) How do they do with usual classroom tests, especially in the University. Core question is, are alumni of constructionism better, or at least competitive there? What evidence do we have to prove this? 3) Is there any evidence (objective, unbiased) as to the impact of constructionism in education? The big maybe here is further impact on development, yes ? (I may be mistaken here, please correct) 4) any other solid, statistically valid data supporting constructionism Please avoid treatises - I will be presenting this this week, and if anyone would volunteer, it may be possible to put you directly in touch with this official and/or his staff. It is, or should be widely known that I see the current conctructionist stance within OLPC and Sugar as a misguided, feel-good attempt that is bound to do more harm to most kids than good compared to what could be achieved with a solid curricular-content approach, but I honestly would be happier I were mistaken, if determined by solid evidence. I love constructionism, it just doesn't seem to me to be what kids need, and all in all, I wish it worked, but I cannot prove it does for most kids. I am certain, but cannot prove either, that it does work within classrooms with highly trained teachers, or for gifted kids, or when there is a lot of educated support from home, in any case not a basis to adopt it for a country like Bolivia. Yama ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] ~30 NEW XO-1.5 beta laptops now available free !
Can't be true? MAD (Make A Difference) It is! Twitter them Masses now http://blog.laptop.org Want to join the OLPC/Sugar volunteer team deciding who the luckiest, most talented 30 contributors will be? Yes You Can :) http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Support_Gang ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] inquiry on constructionism advantages
Hi Yam, Firstly, I am not an educationalist or even a constructionalist But I suspect that if the goal is to get better scores on standard tests, the best way to achieve that is to teach to pass the test (which is what a lot of education systems are set up to do) If however, you want to teach skills that are valued by society and industry (ie you can add value to the modern world), then what you are measuring needs to be reconsidered. I am sure there is research out there to support constructionalism as a pedagogy suitable for today's Knowledge Society needs, but you will probably also find research saying it isn't because they are measuring the wrong things. Sorry I didn't answer the question, but it is important to ask the right question as well. Ian Thomson RICS and OLPC Coordinator Noumea SPC Phone +687 26 01 44 -Original Message- From: iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org [mailto:iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org] On Behalf Of Yamandu Ploskonka Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 3:52 AM To: iaep Subject: [IAEP] inquiry on constructionism advantages I have received an inquiry on implementing constructionism from a high official in the Bolivian government. Since my opinion may be biased :-), I request you help us with clear, simple and please objective answers (no vapor-stuff), if at all possible 1) How do constructionist pupils do on standardized tests, such as University entrance exams. (please inform about other demographic situations besides children of highly trained scholars - most Bolivian kids do not fit THAT bracket, alas) 2) How do they do with usual classroom tests, especially in the University. Core question is, are alumni of constructionism better, or at least competitive there? What evidence do we have to prove this? 3) Is there any evidence (objective, unbiased) as to the impact of constructionism in education? The big maybe here is further impact on development, yes ? (I may be mistaken here, please correct) 4) any other solid, statistically valid data supporting constructionism Please avoid treatises - I will be presenting this this week, and if anyone would volunteer, it may be possible to put you directly in touch with this official and/or his staff. It is, or should be widely known that I see the current conctructionist stance within OLPC and Sugar as a misguided, feel-good attempt that is bound to do more harm to most kids than good compared to what could be achieved with a solid curricular-content approach, but I honestly would be happier I were mistaken, if determined by solid evidence. I love constructionism, it just doesn't seem to me to be what kids need, and all in all, I wish it worked, but I cannot prove it does for most kids. I am certain, but cannot prove either, that it does work within classrooms with highly trained teachers, or for gifted kids, or when there is a lot of educated support from home, in any case not a basis to adopt it for a country like Bolivia. Yama ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
