Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] ANNOUNCE: Moving Sugar to GPLv3+

2011-04-23 Thread Bernie Innocenti 
On Sat, 2011-04-23 at 03:38 -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote: 
> That is the position of the FSF. However, a very wide community of
> practice has adopted the GPL for its "share and share alike"
> mechanics.
> 
> In that sense, I stand squarely on the same position as Linus and
> other kernel hackers. I have always used and liked the GPLv2 because
> it ensures the sharing of the code.
> 
> What is done with said code was never the business of GPLv2. GPLv3
> starts getting its nose into the "how it is used" side.

Wait a moment: neither the GPLv2 nor the GPLv3 has ever put any
limitation on the way you can *use* the software. One could use GPLv3
software to murder people or to implement DRM. For both licenses,
distribution of the software in binary form must to be accompanied by
the full source code (or a promise to provide such source upon request).

Additionally, the GPLv3 specifies that users must be provided with any
"authorization keys" required to install and execute modified versions
of the software. This is the heart of the anti-tivo clause.

There's no explicit prohibition to use GPLv3 software on a locked-down
platform, as long as users are given the ability to install modified
versions the GPLv3 code (and not the entire OS). Of course, if the GPLv3
software happened to be the kernel itself, jail-breaking would become
trivial.


> > There's even explicit wording allowing employers to have workers or
> > contractors use GPL'd software without automatically transferring them
> > any rights:
> 
> Can you point me to the relevant section on this?

The definition of "conveying" is in section "0. Definitions.". It
excludes things such as thin-clients or terminals (whereas the GPLv2 may
be ambiguous).

The additional exception which allows employers to give code to their
employees without triggering distribution is in "2. Basic Permissions."


> >  Those thus making or running the covered works for you must do so
> >  exclusively on your behalf, under your direction and control, on terms
> >  that prohibit them from making any copies of your copyrighted material
> >  outside their relationship with you.
> 
> Is that the wording? So for this to stick employees using a
> locked-down machine can't copy binaries to a removable disk?

My interpretation of the above paragraph is that they can copy binaries
anywhere they like, as long as this is part of their work. If you allow
your employers to make personal copies and take them home, then you must
give them the full set of rights that the GPL would normally imply.

The GPLv2 was stricter than the GPLv3 in this regard, there was no
exception at all.


> > A few years ago, a large American publisher of schoolbooks asked us to
> > implement features for "copyright control", so they could sell their
> > books to students ensure they couldn't exchange copies. In Paraguay, a
> > local publisher came up with another scheme involving Adobe Flash to
> > limit what users could do or not do with books.
> >
> > With the GPLv2 alone, any deployment or hardware vendor could make a
> > deal with a publisher and turn Sugar into a Kindle full of DRM.
> 
> Well, I don't much like the above, and wouldn't personally do it.
> However,  GPL never gave me any rights upon how users use of my
> software, or in which direction developers may develop it.
> 
> Get the hang of this: licensing software GPL, any version, I am
> allowing many dictators to use it to do, coordinate, automate and
> organize the most horrid actions you can think of. Torture? Check.
> Murder? You bet! And this isn't hard to get over.

In this respect, the GPLv2 and the GPLv3 are identical, because there
are no limitations on usage.


> GPLv2 is a humble instrument. Licensee, do whatever you want, but
> share the source when you distribute.

The spirit of the GPL "share alike", but giving out the source code is
not in itself sufficient to preserve all rights every time the software
changes hands.

To fully benefit from Freedom 1, users need the ability to compile,
install and run modified versions of the program. In this respect, the
GPLv2 had an unfortunate bug: it's possible for the right to run
modified versions of the program to decay when such program is embedded
in a locked-down device such as a TiVo, an iPhone or a Kindle.


> In what *planet* do you live? Honestly, GPLv3 is controversial amongst
> anyone whose work is possibly tivoized. It was so all through the
> drafting process.

Ok, that's true, but it shouldn't be controversial among *us*. I can see
why Apple or Microsoft would fear the GPLv3, but are we in the business
of exploiting our users through DRM?

It's not happening right now, but one day someone could get the idea to
take the wicked business model of ebook readers into the world of
education. By going with the GPLv3, we'll prevent this sort of things
from ever happening in the future.

-- 
Bernie Innocenti
Sugar Labs Infrastructure Team
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Infrastructure_Team


__

Re: [IAEP] [SLOBS] GPL non compliance? was Re: [Sugar-devel] GPL non-compliance, was Re: GPLv3

2011-04-23 Thread Sebastian Silva 

From the olpc-uruguay list in an unrelated thread:

"Si utilizamos las claves de desarrollador (que son las que permiten 
hacer cualquier cosa en la maquina), pero al momento solo se entregan 
por solicitudes puntuales (proyectos de grado por ejemplo)." - Ing. 
Daniel Castelo - Plan Ceibal - Área Técnica

http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-uruguay/2011-April/005222.html
Rough translation:
/"We do use developer keys (the ones that allow you to do anything with 
the machine), but at the moment they are only given for specific 
requests (like for example thesis projects)." - Eng Daniel Castelo - 
Plan Ceibal - Technical Area

/

I know its not official but its a pretty clear indication that developer 
keys are not available to everyone.

This makes Yama's concerns valid and important, I think.
Since the board will probably meet in UY next month, this should be an 
item in our agenda.


Sebastian


El 23/04/11 13:49, Yamandu Ploskonka escribió:
following Martin's timely advice, may I please try again, so we can 
finish this with simple answers?


the question is (or are)

   1. is locking users out in compliance with current GPL?
   2. does Ceibal lock out users?
   3. is there a known procedure to get keys for Ceibal users?
   4. is Ceibal in compliance with current GPL?
   5. if no, who should follow up? the FSF? the Sugarlabs Board?
   6. were of-record (2, 3) Ceibal policies to continue, would it be
  in compliance with GPL3?
   7. if no, who should follow up? the FSF? the Sugarlabs Board?

I know that 2 and 3 are almost rhetorical, but in the interest of not 
building other questions as "loaded", I add them there.  There even 
might be good news I am unaware of that someone who is better informed 
can offer!


Thank you

Yama


On 04/23/2011 01:16 PM, Martin Langhoff wrote:

Folks --

one thing we need to be in good intellectual shape to handle loaded
questions. Everyone here probably knows them well, but I just re-read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

and it was rather refreshing and useful.

In general, if you don't know much about a topic, it is a good idea to
*avoid* making inflammatory statements and accusations.

You can ask, but please don't mix the valid questions with accusations
or loaded questions. It doesn't help anyone.

cheers,


m



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[IAEP] TurtleArt (Sugar) + Icaro = Tortucaro - por/by Valentin Basel

2011-04-23 Thread Gustavo Ibarra 
Para mas información leer en/ To learn more about it
http://proyectofedora.org/argentina/?p=320

¡Excelente Valetin!

Abrazos!

Gustavo.-
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[IAEP] GPL non compliance? was Re: [Sugar-devel] GPL non-compliance, was Re: [SLOBS] GPLv3

2011-04-23 Thread Yamandu Ploskonka 
following Martin's timely advice, may I please try again, so we can 
finish this with simple answers?


the question is (or are)

  1. is locking users out in compliance with current GPL?
  2. does Ceibal lock out users?
  3. is there a known procedure to get keys for Ceibal users?
  4. is Ceibal in compliance with current GPL?
  5. if no, who should follow up? the FSF? the Sugarlabs Board?
  6. were of-record (2, 3) Ceibal policies to continue, would it be in
 compliance with GPL3?
  7. if no, who should follow up? the FSF? the Sugarlabs Board?

I know that 2 and 3 are almost rhetorical, but in the interest of not 
building other questions as "loaded", I add them there.  There even 
might be good news I am unaware of that someone who is better informed 
can offer!


Thank you

Yama


On 04/23/2011 01:16 PM, Martin Langhoff wrote:

Folks --

one thing we need to be in good intellectual shape to handle loaded
questions. Everyone here probably knows them well, but I just re-read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

and it was rather refreshing and useful.

In general, if you don't know much about a topic, it is a good idea to
*avoid* making inflammatory statements and accusations.

You can ask, but please don't mix the valid questions with accusations
or loaded questions. It doesn't help anyone.

cheers,


m
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] New activity from OLPC France

2011-04-23 Thread mokurai 
On Fri, April 22, 2011 5:00 am, Stefanie Nobel wrote:
> Hi Walter,
>
> That’s an interesting point. At the beginning I also had something more
like
> an experimental cook studio in mind. During my research I found some funny
> things, like making an own pH indicator with red cabbage, a natural pH
> indicator that changes colors according to the acidity of the solution
> you’re mixing with. For example when you fry your egg with a little red
> cabbage juice the egg becomes green. I found several other good, but for
> the moment I am not sure how to include it in our game.
>
> But concerning your question I can only offer a database with prepared
> aliments and their nutritional values. As far as I know, there is no
rule of
> thumb how cooking impacts food. The impact depends on the aliment. I am
> currently looking for more information on this topic, so when I find
> anything I will let you know.

There are several books on the subject from varying points of view and for
different audiences. Examples include

* Let's Cook It Right (1988), by Adelle Davis

* Science Experiments You Can Eat: Revised Edition (1984), by Vicki Cobb
and David Cain

* Amazing Kitchen Chemistry Projects You Can Build Yourself (May 1, 2008)
by Cynthia Light Brown and Blair Shedd

* Kitchen Chemistry - Paperback (July 1, 2005) by Ted Lister and Heston
Blumenthal

* What Einstein Told His Cook: Kitchen Science Explained (May 17, 2002) by
Robert L. Wolke

* "The Magic School Bus Gets Baked in a Cake: a Book About Kitchen
Chemistry" and "The Magic School Bus Plants Seeds: a Book About How Living
Things Grow" (2-volume set) (PBS Magic School Bus) - Paperback (1994) by
Patricia Relf Linda Beech and John Spiers Ted Enik

* On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen by Harold McGee

* Cooking for Geeks: Real Science, Great Hacks, and Good Food by Jeff Potter

* Ratio: The Simple Codes Behind the Craft of Everyday Cooking by Michael
Ruhlman

* The Science Chef: 100 Fun Food Experiments and Recipes for Kids by Joan
D'Amico

* The Science Chef Travels Around the World: Fun Food Experiments and
Recipes for Kids, by Joan D'Amico, Karen E. Drummond

* The Science of Cooking - Hardcover (June 8, 2001) by Peter Barham

* Food Science (Food Science Text Series) by Norman N. Potter and Joseph
H. Hotchkiss (1999)

* Essentials of Food Science (Food Science Text Series) by Vickie A.
Vaclavik and Elizabeth W. Christian (Paperback - Nov 30, 2007)

* Food Chemistry by H.-D. Belitz, Werner Grosch and Peter Schieberle
(Paperback - Feb 27, 2009)

* The Science of Good Food: The Ultimate Reference on How Cooking Works by
David Joachim, Andrew Schloss and A. Philip Handel Ph.D. (Paperback - Oct
10, 2008)

* Understanding Food Science and Technology (with InfoTrac) by Peter S.
Murano (Hardcover - Sep 25, 2002)

among many others that you can find on Amazon. There is also a huge
scientific literature on these topics, and discussions of related
subjects, such as

* Molecular Gastronomy: Exploring the Science of Flavor (Arts and
Traditions of the Table: Perspectives on Culinary History) by Hervé This
and Malcolm DeBevoise (Paperback - Aug 1, 2008)

> Stefanie
> 2011/4/18 Walter Bender 
>
>>  On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Stefanie Nobel
>>  wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I’m glad to present you a new project from OLPC France. For the next
>> six
>> > months we will develop a new playful software, which aims at educating
>> > children about a healthier nutrition.
>> > In this game children are taking care of an avatar by providing him
>> with
>> > meals, which they have to prepare before. By doing so the children are
>> meant
>> > to learn the importance of good nutrition for their healthy.
>> > The game will be supported by Danone Research. They will not only
>> finance
>> > the project but also share their great knowledge on this topic with
>> us.
>> >
>> > We’re just at the begining of the development but here is a short
>> > description of our first ideas:
>> > The game will be split in two parts:
>> >
>> > In one part the children can create their own recipes in a virtual
>> > environment, similar to a “cook studio”. There is also the possibility
>> to
>> > share these recipes with other children.
>> > The other part is for validation: Here the meal will be “validated” by
>> the
>> > avatar, (for example, a reaction might be, that the avatar can’t do
>> homework
>> > because he has not sufficient energy).
>> >
>> > So at first we will have to define the relevant parameters, which you
>> have
>> > to consider when you validate a healthy meal, for example:
>> >
>> > The need of the different nutritional values,
>> > The nutritional value of the aliment
>> > In natural and organic state and
>> > after the preparation of the meal
>> > The activities, the avatar/child do/did during the day
>> > The season and the weather
>> > The times of the meals during the day(this has an impact on the gain
>> of
>> the
>> > food)
>> > The health of the avatar/chi

Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] GPL non-compliance, was Re: [SLOBS] GPLv3

2011-04-23 Thread Martin Langhoff 
Folks --

one thing we need to be in good intellectual shape to handle loaded
questions. Everyone here probably knows them well, but I just re-read

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

and it was rather refreshing and useful.

In general, if you don't know much about a topic, it is a good idea to
*avoid* making inflammatory statements and accusations.

You can ask, but please don't mix the valid questions with accusations
or loaded questions. It doesn't help anyone.

cheers,


m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- Software Architect - OLPC
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: [IAEP] LogoWorks: Challlenging Programs in Logo

2011-04-23 Thread mokurai 
On Tue, April 19, 2011 3:41 pm, Walter Bender wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Cynthia Solomon 
> wrote:
>> I finally put LogoWorks on the web. It has been out-of-print for a
>> while.

Thank you. What is the intended license? If it is Creative Commons
Sharealike, the Sugar Labs Replacing Textbooks project would like to adapt
it to Berkeley Logo and translate it to a number of languages for
countries with OLPC programs.

>> This collection of Logo programs contains projects written by novices as
>> well as experts in Logo and computing. I
>>  edited the book with Margaret Minsky and Brian Harvey while i was
>> director of the Atari Cambridge Research Lab.
>>
>> http://logoworks.wikispaces.com
>>
>> Although written for Atari Logo most projects except for animations
>> will be
>> easy to adapt to Brian's Logo on the XO or other programming languages.
>
> Wonderful.
>
> -walter
>> --Cynthia
>>
>> ___
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>


-- 
Edward Mokurai
(默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر
ج) Cherlin
Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
http://www.earthtreasury.org/

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Re: [IAEP] New activity from OLPC France

2011-04-23 Thread mokurai 
On Fri, April 22, 2011 4:59 am, Stefanie Nobel wrote:
> Hi Ian,
>
>
>
> Certainly, my goal is to make it customizable as far as possible. I plan
> to
> provide the admin with the possibility to adjust the databases, in order
> to
> adapt the content to the local context (e.g. diseases like obesity or
> diabetes). For now I am thinking of three different databases:

Don't forget the nutritional components of AIDS, malaria, drug-resistant
TB, cholera, river blindness, and extreme dietary deficiencies, among
others that plague developing countries.

> - One for all *aliments* (in natural state as well as in prepared
> state like pureed tomato) with their nutritional value

There is a fairly good USDA table covering all of that for foods commonly
available in the US. It needs to be extended to cover other countries and
other cultures. Eating acorns, for example, by Native Americans, or
insects in many places, or poisonous yams in parts of Africa, after you
extract the poison.

> - The second one includes all nutritional value needs of the
> *human
> body*, their daily dose and the period how long this value can be stored

plus the results of mild and extreme deficiencies, and methods of
providing nutrients to those suffering extreme deprivation, who can die
from suddenly eating normally. (Documented in liberated Nazi concentration
camps, and others like them.)

> - And the last one with “*activities*” and the value how many this
> activity consume a certain nutritional value
>
>
>
> The last database is the most individual one. Activity means here not only
> a kind of sport; it can also mean a season or a disease. So I name any
> particular condition an activity, when it consumes a nutritional value.

Excellent.

> Finally, to answer your question, I try to make it customizable by
> offering several databases of activities.

We will want to be able to fully localize the software and the databases.

> 2011/4/17 Ian Thomson 
>
>>  Hi Stefanie,
>>
>>
>>
>> This sounds like a great game. Will it be customizable to various
>> regions/customs?
>>
>>
>>
>> I come from the Pacific and the diet here is quite different from that
>> in say India or Africa.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have a great problem in the region with obesity leading to high rates
>> of
>> diabetes caused by a combination of high levels of poor quality of food
>> (e.g. white rice and fatty meat) and little exercise. Educating children
>> about the nutritional value of food is a good addition to efforts to
>> improve the situation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ian Thomson
>>
>> ICT Outreach Section
>>
>> Economic Development Division
>>
>> Secretariat of the Pacific Community
>>
>> B.P. D5 - Noumea Cedex - 98848
>>
>> New Caledonia
>>
>>
>>
>> Phone +687-265419
>>
>>
>>
>> Fax +687 26 38 18
>>
>> http://www.spc.int
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org [mailto:
>> iaep-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org] *On Behalf Of *Stefanie Nobel
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 18, 2011 2:25 AM
>> *To:* hea...@lists.laptop.org; sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org;
>> iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> *Subject:* [IAEP] New activity from OLPC France
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I’m glad to present you a new project from OLPC France. For the next six
>> months we will develop a new playful software, which aims at educating
>> children about a healthier nutrition.
>> In this game children are taking care of an avatar by providing him with
>> meals, which they have to prepare before. By doing so the children are
>> meant
>> to learn the importance of good nutrition for their healthy.
>> The game will be supported by Danone Research. They will not only
>> finance
>> the project but also share their great knowledge on this topic with us.
>>
>> We’re just at the begining of the development but here is a short
>> description of our first ideas:
>> The game will be split in two parts:
>>
>>- In one part the children can create their own recipes in a virtual
>>environment, similar to a “cook studio”. There is also the
>> possibility to
>>share these recipes with other children.
>>- The other part is for validation: Here the meal will be “validated”
>>by the avatar, (for example, a reaction might be, that the avatar
>> can’t do
>>homework because he has not sufficient energy).
>>
>> So at first we will have to define the relevant parameters, which you
>> have
>> to consider when you validate a healthy meal, for example:
>>
>>- The need of the different nutritional values,
>>- The nutritional value of the aliment
>>- In natural and organic state and
>>- after the preparation of the meal
>>- The activities, the avatar/child do/did during the day
>>- The season and the weather
>>- The times of the meals during the day(this has an impact on the
>> gain
>>of the food)
>>- The health of the avatar/child
>>- The extent of hygienic conditions when preparing the food
>>
>>
>>
>> The next step will be to collect all those information and in

Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] New activity from OLPC France

2011-04-23 Thread mokurai 
On Mon, April 18, 2011 10:22 am, Dr. Gerald Ardito wrote:
> Walter,
>
> The type of lab notebook activity you describe could be extended beyond
> the
> cooking area. I can see students using this for all kinds of scientific
> investigations.

I have proposed this approach to learning the XO and Sugar, in

http://booki.treehouse.su/discovering-discovery/

It is necessary to explain, or at least give hints, on those topics
catalogued at

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable

but for everything else, we could teach a great deal about discovery by
letting the children find out about their learning tools themselves.

Discovery: Preparation

Before you begin, get a notebook or create a file on another computer to
make notes on your progress, your discoveries, and your questions.

If you haven't done this kind of exploration before, it will feel quite
odd. There are sound reasons for this feeling, so don't worry about it,
but do take note of it. In fact, take note of how you feel at every stage.
Are you uncomfortable? Distressed, even? Make a note of such feelings, and
press on. Are you getting excited and happy? Good. Make a note of that,
too. You can compare notes with others later on, if you like. Is your
brain turning to goop, and nothing makes any sense?

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/07/07/funny-pictures-i-have-the-dumb/

Take a break. Don't push yourself. You are trying to unlearn bad habits
from school, and you have to allow your brain time to process the changes.

> My two cents.
> Gerald
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Walter Bender
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Stefanie Nobel
>>  wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I’m glad to present you a new project from OLPC France. For the next
>> six
>> > months we will develop a new playful software, which aims at educating
>> > children about a healthier nutrition.
>> > In this game children are taking care of an avatar by providing him
>> with
>> > meals, which they have to prepare before. By doing so the children are
>> meant
>> > to learn the importance of good nutrition for their healthy.
>> > The game will be supported by Danone Research. They will not only
>> finance
>> > the project but also share their great knowledge on this topic with
>> us.
>> >
>> > We’re just at the begining of the development but here is a short
>> > description of our first ideas:
>> > The game will be split in two parts:
>> >
>> > In one part the children can create their own recipes in a virtual
>> > environment, similar to a “cook studio”. There is also the possibility
>> to
>> > share these recipes with other children.
>> > The other part is for validation: Here the meal will be “validated” by
>> the
>> > avatar, (for example, a reaction might be, that the avatar can’t do
>> homework
>> > because he has not sufficient energy).
>> >
>> > So at first we will have to define the relevant parameters, which you
>> have
>> > to consider when you validate a healthy meal, for example:
>> >
>> > The need of the different nutritional values,
>> > The nutritional value of the aliment
>> > In natural and organic state and
>> > after the preparation of the meal
>> > The activities, the avatar/child do/did during the day
>> > The season and the weather
>> > The times of the meals during the day(this has an impact on the gain
>> of
>> the
>> > food)
>> > The health of the avatar/child
>> > The extent of hygienic conditions when preparing the food
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The next step will be to collect all those information and integrate
>> it
>> into
>> > a rough logic.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So don’t hesitate to comment about this project and share your
>> thoughts.
>> >
>> > We appreciate all kinds of input!
>> >
>>
>> FWIW, several of us have been thinking about a different angle on a
>> cooking activity, one more geared towards chemistry and the science of
>> the kitchen: getting the kids to experiment with recipes, for example,
>> changing the 'resting time' when making noodles from flour and water,
>> and observing how this changes the consistency,  flavor, etc. The
>> Activity would be more like a lab notebook and set of simple data
>> analysis tools than anything else, but then the kids could presumably
>> photograph their results with their XO and share their successes and
>> failures, and aggregate data more widely. It be interesting to fold in
>> nutrition into the mix: does Danone have data we can use re how
>> cooking impacts the foods we eat?
>>
>> regards.
>>
>> -walter
>>
>> >
>> > Stefanie
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Sugar-devel mailing list
>> > sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
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>>
>

Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] GPL non-compliance, was Re: [SLOBS] GPLv3

2011-04-23 Thread Martin Langhoff 
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:05 AM, Walter Bender  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:15 PM, Yamandu Ploskonka  
> wrote:
>> Walter, I am too dumb to know the full ins and outs of this.  I also have
>> been advised that I should not mess with this because (as I understood it)

Yama, please inform yourself _above_ gossip. You say you don't know
enough and then make outrageous accusations. The two things don't go
together.

Sugar is GPLv2, I explained yesterday why GPLv2, even v3, is not a
problem, even for Bitfrost-style locked-down machines, as long as you
can install Sugar & Sugar Toolkit in your home directory.

cheers,


m
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] ANNOUNCE: Moving Sugar to GPLv3+

2011-04-23 Thread Sean DALY 
http://fsfe.org/projects/gplv3/europe-gplv3-conference.en.html
http://fsfe.org/projects/gplv3/barcelona-rms-transcript.en.html

see question 6b from this Q&A from the 3rd International GPLv3
Conference (Barcelona, June 22-23, 2006):

**
Q6b: Second question, when people start to update their licences to
the new versions, how will that happen in practice?

RMS: In practice, any program that says it can be distributed under
GPL version two "or later" will automatically be available under GPL
version 3, but, when people make subsequent releases, they can change
that to say "GPL version 3 or later", that's what we will do in
subsequent releases of GNU software.
**

(I remember this because it was I who recorded all of the video &
audio that day)

Sean


On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 1:47 AM, Chris Ball  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Apr 22 2011, Chris Ball wrote:
>> I think you've repeatedly ignored Scott's claim that you can't modify
>> COPYING or the source files because that would be *changing* the
>> license, rather than taking advantage of GPLv3 redistribution rights.
>> Can you ask Brett or someone at the FSF what the right thing to do is?
>
> I chatted with some FSF staffers on IRC, they agree with Bernie's
> interpretation that modifying COPYING and the source headers *is*
> the way that you "choose to redistribute under the GPLv3+ instead",
> and that it's a modification of the license that was explicitly
> allowed ahead of time by the "or later" clause.
>
> They haven't yet been able to find any documentation that explains
> this or backs it up, though.
>
> - Chris.
> --
> Chris Ball      
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] ANNOUNCE: Moving Sugar to GPLv3+

2011-04-23 Thread Martin Langhoff 
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Martin Langhoff
 wrote:
> Murder? You bet! And this isn't hard to get over.

Easy. Oops. Not easy to get over.



m
-- 
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 mar...@laptop.org -- Software Architect - OLPC
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] ANNOUNCE: Moving Sugar to GPLv3+

2011-04-23 Thread Martin Langhoff 
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Bernie Innocenti  wrote:
>> I sure wish that GPLv3 was limited to those bugfixes, and the
>> anti-tivo wording was segregatd to a new license; a bit like some
>> clauses were split off to the Affero-GPL.
>
> The GPL always has been about protecting the famous Four Freedoms. Back
> when the GPLv2 was created, nobody had yet figured out that tivoization
> could be used to game the license and effectively deny users the freedom
> to modify the software.

That is the position of the FSF. However, a very wide community of
practice has adopted the GPL for its "share and share alike"
mechanics.

In that sense, I stand squarely on the same position as Linus and
other kernel hackers. I have always used and liked the GPLv2 because
it ensures the sharing of the code.

What is done with said code was never the business of GPLv2. GPLv3
starts getting its nose into the "how it is used" side.

> There's even explicit wording allowing employers to have workers or
> contractors use GPL'd software without automatically transferring them
> any rights:

Can you point me to the relevant section on this?

>  Those thus making or running the covered works for you must do so
>  exclusively on your behalf, under your direction and control, on terms
>  that prohibit them from making any copies of your copyrighted material
>  outside their relationship with you.

Is that the wording? So for this to stick employees using a
locked-down machine can't copy binaries to a removable disk?

> A few years ago, a large American publisher of schoolbooks asked us to
> implement features for "copyright control", so they could sell their
> books to students ensure they couldn't exchange copies. In Paraguay, a
> local publisher came up with another scheme involving Adobe Flash to
> limit what users could do or not do with books.
>
> With the GPLv2 alone, any deployment or hardware vendor could make a
> deal with a publisher and turn Sugar into a Kindle full of DRM.

Well, I don't much like the above, and wouldn't personally do it.
However,  GPL never gave me any rights upon how users use of my
software, or in which direction developers may develop it.

Get the hang of this: licensing software GPL, any version, I am
allowing many dictators to use it to do, coordinate, automate and
organize the most horrid actions you can think of. Torture? Check.
Murder? You bet! And this isn't hard to get over.

(And I don't say this lightly, having grown up in a country blighted
by a nasty civil war, with family members on both sides.)

GPLv2 is a humble instrument. Licensee, do whatever you want, but
share the source when you distribute.

>> - At what point do we say "hey, this has scant upside, and negative
>> controversy around it, let's spend our time in productive things
>> instead"?
>
> Which negative controversy, the one you're personally fueling? This is
> kind of a circular argument :-)

In what *planet* do you live? Honestly, GPLv3 is controversial amongst
anyone whose work is possibly tivoized. It was so all through the
drafting process.

> You've expressed some valid concerns and I believe I've responded
> satisfactorily to all of them. If not, I'm glad to hear a
> counter-argument from you.

No -- there is no upside I can see. Sugar's license hasn't been in the
business of restricting usage, and it should not get there.

cheers,


m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- Software Architect - OLPC
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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