Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Dave Crossland (2016-05-22 19:03:05)
> On 20 May 2016 at 09:50, Sebastian Silva  wrote:
>
>> El 20/05/16 a las 07:56, Dave Crossland escribió:
>>
>>> I think Sugar would be installed as a dualboot on Chromebooks.
>> My main machine was a chromebok for a couple of years until a 
>> thunderstorm took its life. It was wonderful hardware, almost fatally 
>> crippled with DRM. I had to dissassemble it, remove a 'security 
>> screw' (properly named) in order to flash the firmware to avoid 
>> dangerous "press space to have google format your drive" first boot 
>> warning. One time I accidentally pushed space and it wiped the hard 
>> drive!
>>
>
> Wow! Its nice there is a screw instead of glue :)

It is a hardware design to scare off non-hackers while not violating the 
tivoization clauses in GPL-3.


> I looked a bit further into ChromeOS options for Sugar, and it seems 
> free desktops can run chroot'd within ChromeOS, per 
> http://www.howtogeek.com/208368/how-to-run-a-full-linux-desktop-in-a-browser-tab-on-your-chromebook/

Notice the "full Crouton system" in that article? That implies you 
either get scary warnings and loud beeps at boot with super easy 
accidental wipe of your whole system, or need to tinker with the 
infamous screw.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


signature.asc
Description: signature
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Sebastian Silva]

You write a long email with many pointy points. Back to the topic:


El 21/05/16 a las 15:31, Dave Crossland escribió:
>
> Finally I don't have (or want) access  to a Windows machine.
>
>
> Indeed, in the final analysis, that rather settles the debate, doesn't
> it :D
>
> I will see if the guy who ported FontForge to Windows might be
> interested :)
Sure, I will defend your freedom to do this.
>
> BTW, in looking up what that total number of desktop users is, I noted
> how
> different 
> http://stats.sugarlabs.org/activities.sugarlabs.org/awstats.pl?framename=mainright#countries
>  looks
> coared
> to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage#IPv4_addresses :)
>
I am more concerned with the rest of the 4/5 of the world population who
have barely used computers. My ultimate goal is long term.
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 May 2016 at 09:50, Sebastian Silva  wrote:

> El 20/05/16 a las 07:56, Dave Crossland escribió:
>
> > I think Sugar would be installed as a dualboot on Chromebooks.
> My main machine was a chromebok for a couple of years until a
> thunderstorm took its life. It was wonderful hardware, almost fatally
> crippled with DRM. I had to dissassemble it, remove a 'security screw'
> (properly named) in order to flash the firmware to avoid dangerous
> "press space to have google format your drive" first boot warning. One
> time I accidentally pushed space and it wiped the hard drive!
>

Wow! Its nice there is a screw instead of glue :)

I looked a bit further into ChromeOS options for Sugar, and it seems free
desktops can run chroot'd within ChromeOS, per
http://www.howtogeek.com/208368/how-to-run-a-full-linux-desktop-in-a-browser-tab-on-your-chromebook/

-- 
Cheers
Dave
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Jonas Smedegaard]

[reposting to IAEP list - thanks to Sebastian for noticing the omission]

Quoting Dave Crossland (2016-05-21 22:31:49)
> I think packaging Sugar Desktop for Fedora and Debian is great! I'm 
> not attempting to discourage you from that.

Seems you missed the emphasis on one distribtion over the other.


> But, while looking into Sugar/Debian, I found 
> https://wiki.debian.org/Sugar which is stale,

Updated now. You still won't find much mailinglist activity (I find it 
boring to discuss with myself), but the page now links to up-to-date 
packages in new group pkg-sugar (not obsolete debian-olpc).

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


signature.asc
Description: signature
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Walter Bender]

We pushed as far as we could given the resources we had at the time, but
there were components of the motherboard (embedded controller comes to
mind) which had Quanta-proprietary code. We did use Open Firmware instead
of the typical BIOS of the time. Everything on top of that was Software
Libre.

-walter


-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org

___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 21 May 2016 at 20:00, Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:

> Quoting Dave Crossland (2016-05-22 01:25:07)
> > I have't seen anything about XOs that would meet
> > http://www.oshwa.org/definition but I'll be very happy to see them :)
>
> No doubt what you will be happy about is to argue _against_ any such
> OSHW-certified laptops, same way as you argue against Free Software.
>

Please unpack what you mean; I don't get it.

-- 
Cheers
Dave
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Dave Crossland (2016-05-22 01:25:07)
> I have't seen anything about XOs that would meet 
> http://www.oshwa.org/definition but I'll be very happy to see them :)

No doubt what you will be happy about is to argue _against_ any such 
OSHW-certified laptops, same way as you argue against Free Software.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


signature.asc
Description: signature
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Caryl Bigenho]

While I don't "do Windows," I do use Mac, iOS, and Android. What libre hardware 
do Latin American educational systems have access to now that the OLPC-XO 
product stream is drying up? Android devices are ubiquitous. iPhones and iOS 
are found worldwide. That is why Lionel's Sugarlzer running on his advertised 
"any device" is so appealing. If learners' hardware can't be open source, at 
least the educational software they use can be.

Caryl

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 20, 2016, at 11:23 PM, Sebastian Silva  
> wrote:
> 
>> El 20/05/16 a las 09:43, Dave Crossland escribió:
>>> On 20 May 2016 at 09:56, Sebastian Silva  wrote:
>>> While I have close-to-zero motivation to have activities run on Windows
>> 
>> Please explain why you feel this way. I am excited about the possibility of 
>> running Sugar activities on Windows and Mac OS X. 
> 
> I have very seriously taken as part of my mission in life is to promote libre 
> technologies because I think they can empower people as they have empowered 
> me.
> 
> I have a saying "if it's not Free, it doesn't exist" (in Spanish it makes 
> more sense: libre). 
> 
> While I have made compromises in the past (finally I have a rooted android 
> device, and have used skype to have the kids talk with grandma), I actively 
> avoid all of that like the plague.
> 
> The fact that Windows is considered a viable alternative for schools is, in 
> my mind, immoral and we do a lot of work (lobby) to discourage this argument 
> in public discourse on the basis of, for instance, native language 
> supportability, technologic sovereignity and long term sustainability. There 
> are huge interests invested in trying to sell Windows (and Android) to our 
> Latin American public education systems and us supporting it would be 
> counterproductive in my humble opinion. While it is technically feasible, and 
> in some instances, as you say, even desirable (for newbies etc), I would 
> rather not. 
> 
> Finally I don't have (or want) access  to a Windows machine.
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 21 May 2016 at 19:18, Caryl Bigenho  wrote:
> What libre hardware do Latin American educational systems have access to
now
> that the OLPC-XO product stream is drying up?

I'm curious why you think any XO was libre hardware?

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Open_Hardware says,

The development of the XO required many millions of dollars of engineering,
tooling, and test runs. The company building the XO, Quanta Computer, Inc.,
invested this, with the hopes of recouping it through their very small (and
limited) profit on the manufacture over many, many millions of units. In
order to ensure this, they are maintaining strict control over the actual
electrical design of the laptop.


I have't seen anything about XOs that would meet
http://www.oshwa.org/definition but I'll be very happy to see them :)

-- 
Cheers
Dave
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 21 May 2016 at 13:14, Sebastian Silva  wrote:

> El 21/05/16 a las 10:24, Dave Crossland escribió:
>
>
> On 21 May 2016 at 02:18, Sebastian Silva 
>  wrote:
>
>> There are huge interests invested in trying to sell Windows (and Android)
>> to our Latin American public education systems and us supporting it would
>> be counterproductive in my humble opinion
>
>
> How do you propose to grow sugar usage 10x?
>
> Glad you asked ;-)
>

XD


> We make Sugar good enough to be the default desktop in education-focused
> GNU/Linux distributions.
>

Very well :D

1. How many education-focused GNU/Linux distributions are there?

2. What are their default desktops?

3. What are their packaged desktop options?

4. What are their upstream distro chains? (eg, Edubuntu -> Ubuntu -> Debian)

5. How many users do they have?


> The best strategy for this is making the Debian based Sugar experience
> very polished.
>
> Why Debian? Because it is the base GNU Linux distribution for massive
> downstream educational distributions:
> - Canaima GNU/Linux is Debian based and has (according to Wikipedia)
> 3.3M deployed machines until 2014
> - Huayra GNU/Linux is Debian based and has (according to Wikipedia) 5M
> deployed machines until 2015
> - Many more.
> Also, Debian is a democratic and solid organization.
>

> Sugar has historically focused in Fedora only because Red Hat made an
> investment in OLPC
>


We already started a volunteer led project
>  on this and had the
> valuable contribution of Jonas Smeedegard and Siri Reiter who visited us in
> Peru last year. Regrettably we have failed to get support from either
> computer manufacturers or the Ministry of Education of Peru to pursue this
> project, but it is very dear to my heart and I wish to be able to continue
> it.
>


Having Sugar Activities not depend on Sugar is a first step to disseminate
> the Sugar philosophy (of simplicity, collaboration, reflection +
> hackability, forkability). So I worked on that on my own time.
>

Indeed, it seems without Red Hat, the software might have been 100%
SmallTalk, a SqueakOS; but then without Red Hat, the XO might not have been
possible at all.

I think packaging Sugar Desktop for Fedora and Debian is great! I'm not
attempting to discourage you from that.

But, while looking into Sugar/Debian, I found https://wiki.debian.org/Sugar
which is stale, and checking all posts for 2016 in
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debian-olpc-devel I
found only 2 that seemed legitimately written by a human to that list:

http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2016-February/005308.html
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2016-March/005318.html

;)

So, if you want more people to contribute to packaging Sugar for Debian, I
propose that you need more Sugar Labs Members who have the required skills;
and to get them, you need to get more parents-who-are-software-engineers
involved to volunteer; and to do that, you need to get
parents-who-are-not-software-engineers to become involved so they tell
their software-savvy friends; and to do that, you ought to package Sugar
for Windows and OS X.

:)


> 10x our user base is rather small.
>

Compared to the current user base it is rather big; compared to the total
number of PC users, it is rather small. More on this point in a moment! :)

I see Free Software as a societal inevitability.
>

(First of all, I'll assume by "Free Software"-in-caps you mean GNU, since
VLC is "Free Software"-in-caps and runs very well on Windows :)

If you say that anything is inevitable, then you need to explain why that
thing didn't happen already: What _poder compensador_ do you propose for
GNU adoption, and what makes the triumph over them inevitable? :)

In addition to proposing _a priori_ theoretical processes, we can also look
at the _a posteriori_ historical and quantitive trends that measure where
have been, where we are, and thus point to where we will go. Ideally theory
and practice match up :)

And indeed, compared to the total number of PC users, the total GNU
userbase is rather small today: at the most generous and rough level, I
would say GNU is at 5%, OS X is 10%, and Windows is the rest (per
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Desktop_and_laptop_computers);
and at the least generous, around 2% GNU, 3% OS X and 95% Windows (per
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#/media/File:Operatingsystem_market_share.svg
)

No matter how generous you are, no matter which way you measure it, I
assert no one can find any data to suggest that the GNU userbase is growing
exponentially.

So it seems quite clear to me from theoretical and empirical approaches
that all GNU distros combined offer only marginal growth; and that if our
goal is indeed to grow GNU, the most effective way to do that is to write

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Sebastian Silva]

El 21/05/16 a las 10:24, Dave Crossland escribió:

>
> On 21 May 2016 at 02:18, Sebastian Silva  > wrote:
>
> There are huge interests invested in trying to sell Windows (and
> Android) to our Latin American public education systems and us
> supporting it would be counterproductive in my humble opinion
>
>
> How do you propose to grow sugar usage 10x?
Glad you asked ;-)

We make Sugar good enough to be the default desktop in education-focused
GNU/Linux distributions.

The best strategy for this is making the Debian based Sugar experience
very polished.

Why Debian? Because it is the base GNU Linux distribution for massive
downstream educational distributions:
- Canaima GNU/Linux is Debian based and has (according to Wikipedia)
3.3M deployed machines until 2014
- Huayra GNU/Linux is Debian based and has (according to Wikipedia)
5M deployed machines until 2015
- Many more.
Also, Debian is a democratic and solid organization.

Sugar has historically focused in Fedora only because Red Hat made an
investment in OLPC.

We already started a volunteer led project
 on this and had the
valuable contribution of Jonas Smeedegard and Siri Reiter who visited us
in Peru last year. Regrettably we have failed to get support from either
computer manufacturers or the Ministry of Education of Peru to pursue
this project, but it is very dear to my heart and I wish to be able to
continue it.

Having Sugar Activities not depend on Sugar is a first step to
disseminate the Sugar philosophy (of simplicity, collaboration,
reflection + hackability, forkability). So I worked on that on my own time.

10x our user base is rather small. I see Free Software as a societal
inevitability. To help speed this up, I would like to have a
GNU+Linux+Sugar distribution that is build to be sustainable and simple
to use, deploy and customize, that includes and respects the rest of the
Free Software stack. Pure Sugar is not ready, in my mind, to fill this
calling; it needs to integrate better with the rest of Free Software.
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Dave Crossland]

On 21 May 2016 at 02:18, Sebastian Silva  wrote:

> There are huge interests invested in trying to sell Windows (and Android)
> to our Latin American public education systems and us supporting it would
> be counterproductive in my humble opinion


How do you propose to grow sugar usage 10x?
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Sebastian Silva]

El 20/05/16 a las 09:43, Dave Crossland escribió:

> On 20 May 2016 at 09:56, Sebastian Silva  > wrote:
>
> While I have close-to-zero motivation to have activities run on
> Windows
>
>
> Please explain why you feel this way. I am excited about the
> possibility of running Sugar activities on Windows and Mac OS X.  

I have very seriously taken as part of my mission in life is to promote
libre technologies because I think they can empower people as they have
empowered me.

I have a saying "if it's not /Free,/ it doesn't exist" (in Spanish it
makes more sense: /libre/)/.

/While I have made compromises in the past (finally I have a rooted
android device, and have used skype to have the kids talk with grandma),
I actively avoid all of that like the plague.

The fact that Windows is considered a viable alternative for schools is,
in my mind, immoral and we do a lot of work (lobby) to discourage this
argument in public discourse on the basis of, for instance, native
language supportability, technologic sovereignity and long term
sustainability. There are huge interests invested in trying to sell
Windows (and Android) to our Latin American public education systems and
us supporting it would be counterproductive in my humble opinion. While
it is technically feasible, and in some instances, as you say, even
desirable (for newbies etc), I would rather not.

Finally I don't have (or want) access  to a Windows machine.
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming" (Dave Crossland)

[Dave Crossland]

Sam, I encourage you to find answers to that question :)

Lionel, I don't mean to discourage or disparage your work. I wish to
explore all the options for the future of the Sugar python codebase. I
would not be surprised if in 5 years Sugar python has been completely
abandoned and there is only Sugarizer, and OLPC OS is a Chromium distro.

:)
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming" (Dave Crossland)

[Sam Parkinson]

The idea of running Sugar on NaCl is a good idea in my opinion.

* The Chrome web store "apps" are downloaded in some form - which is 
good as even an NaCl sugar would probs be 500mb+
* It would make a good "gateway sugar" for people as it is easy to run 
on many platforms.
* I would think of it as a VM, but just super easy to install, and 
eaiser for us to maintain

* Can we actually just run it as a VM under NaCl?

Thanks,
Sam

On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 7:07 AM, Lionel Laské  
wrote:


2016-05-20 5:18 GMT+02:00 :


If we want to grow Sugar's userbase 10x, I think Sugar must run not 
only on

GNU but also Windows and Mac OS X.


Guess I don't need to say that it's exactly my though :-)
FYI, I've qualified Sugarizer on Windows 10.
I've tested it both on Windows 10 Desktop and on Windows 10 Mobile.

A preview video is available here [1].
If you're interested to test it, you could generate yourself the 
package from the Cordova command line using instructions here [2] 
(replace "android" by "windows").


It will be available on Windows Store in the next version.

   Lionel.

[1] 
https://www.facebook.com/lionel.olpcfrance/videos/1008345415887862/
[2] 
https://github.com/llaske/sugarizer#build-client-for-android-or-ios


___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming" (Dave Crossland)

[Lionel Laské]

2016-05-20 5:18 GMT+02:00 :

>
> If we want to grow Sugar's userbase 10x, I think Sugar must run not only on
> GNU but also Windows and Mac OS X.
>

Guess I don't need to say that it's exactly my though :-)
FYI, I've qualified Sugarizer on Windows 10.
I've tested it both on Windows 10 Desktop and on Windows 10 Mobile.

A preview video is available here [1].
If you're interested to test it, you could generate yourself the package
from the Cordova command line using instructions here [2] (replace
"android" by "windows").

It will be available on Windows Store in the next version.

   Lionel.

[1] https://www.facebook.com/lionel.olpcfrance/videos/1008345415887862/
[2] https://github.com/llaske/sugarizer#build-client-for-android-or-ios
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 May 2016 at 11:23, Sean DALY  wrote:

>
> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
>> Do you think Sugar's destiny is to become an app within another operating
>> system?
>
>
>
> I would rephrase this by quoting Scott Ananian:
>
> 
> "what are the essential parts of the Sugar experience"?  I would like
> these roughly as follows (you may have other ideas):
> a) the journal
> b) collaboration
> c) consistent look and feel ("visual design language") / toolbar, etc
> d) "view source"
> e) polyglot support
> 
>
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2013-January/041616.html
>

I would rephase your rephase:

Yes, a GNU/OSX/Win/NaCL app providing (a) through (e) is Sugar, and since
it is easier to install an app than an OS, this is likely to become the
dominant form of Sugar usage in 5 years time.

? :)

-- 
Cheers
Dave
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 May 2016 at 09:56, Sebastian Silva  wrote:

> While I have close-to-zero motivation to have activities run on Windows


Please explain why you feel this way. I am excited about the possibility of
running Sugar activities on Windows and Mac OS X.
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Sebastian Silva]

El 20/05/16 a las 07:56, Dave Crossland escribió:

> I think Sugar would be installed as a dualboot on Chromebooks.  
My main machine was a chromebok for a couple of years until a
thunderstorm took its life. It was wonderful hardware, almost fatally
crippled with DRM. I had to dissassemble it, remove a 'security screw'
(properly named) in order to flash the firmware to avoid dangerous
"press space to have google format your drive" first boot warning. One
time I accidentally pushed space and it wiped the hard drive!
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Sebastian Silva]

While I have close-to-zero motivation to have activities run on Windows,
they probably do already as GTK has run and is supported in windows
since years ago.


El 20/05/16 a las 08:30, Sean DALY escribió:
>
> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Tony Anderson  > wrote:
>
> Do you mean commands written in text?
>
>
>
> Yes, AFAIK no graphics programs.
> Sean
>
>
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 May 2016 at 09:05, Walter Bender  wrote:

> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 20 May 2016 at 00:16, Samuel Greenfeld  wrote:
>>
>>> If Sugar wants to be used in such environments, then it needs to work in
>>> a Chromebook's web browser or as an installed app.
>>>
>>
>> I think Sugar would be installed as a dualboot on Chromebooks.
>>
>
> We should publish clear directions on how to do this. But personally I
> don't believe it is a realistic option for most schools: supporting one
> system is more than most can manage. Supporting two is not likely.
>

Do you think Sugar's destiny is to become an app within another operating
system?
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Walter Bender]

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

>
> On 20 May 2016 at 00:16, Samuel Greenfeld  wrote:
>
>> If Sugar wants to be used in such environments, then it needs to work in
>> a Chromebook's web browser or as an installed app.
>>
>
> I think Sugar would be installed as a dualboot on Chromebooks.
>

We should publish clear directions on how to do this. But personally I
don't believe it is a realistic option for most schools: supporting one
system is more than most can manage. Supporting two is not likely.

-walter

>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>



-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org

___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 May 2016 at 00:16, Samuel Greenfeld  wrote:

> If Sugar wants to be used in such environments, then it needs to work in a
> Chromebook's web browser or as an installed app.
>

I think Sugar would be installed as a dualboot on Chromebooks.
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Walter Bender]

Also, FWIW, for the first time, Chromebooks are now outselling Macs.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/19/11711714/chromebooks-outsold-macs-us-idc-figures

(While you can boot GNU/Linux on many Chromebooks, I don't think this is a
likely scenario for most schools.)

-walter

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:46 AM, Tony Anderson 
wrote:

> According to the news Google is making Android apps available on some
> Chromebooks (possibly including Sugarizer and GCompris).
>
> Windows 10 is making Ubuntu programs available by the command line - which
> could be shortcuts.
>
> Tony
>
> On 05/20/2016 06:16 AM, iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>
>> Send IAEP mailing list submissions to
>> iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> iaep-ow...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of IAEP digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Sugar network/ School Network (Laura Vargas) (Laura Vargas)
>> 2. Re: "Windows Is Coming" (Samuel Greenfeld)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 11:26:28 +0800
>> From: Laura Vargas 
>> To: Tony Anderson 
>> Cc: iaep 
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] Sugar network/ School Network (Laura Vargas)
>> Message-ID:
>> 

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Tony Anderson]

Hi Sean,

Do you mean commands written in text? The question may be whether Ubuntu 
programs can be started from a shortcut but I don't see how that would
not be possible. The information I read did not imply starting an os 
(although I suppose that could be done by a vm). What I read was that this
capability was an alternative to Cygwin. I don't have any hands-on 
experience to judge the quality of the MS/Ubuntu partnership.


However, I think the main point is that Sugar probably can be run in 
Windows 10 starting with the Ubuntu Sugar base. This might be a good 
project
for someone. One major advantage is that it would make it possible to 
demonstrate the capabilities of Sugar on a Windows machine for prospective

sponsors of olpc/Sugar deployments.

Tony

On 05/20/2016 12:37 PM, Sean DALY wrote:


On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Tony Anderson > wrote:


Windows 10 is making Ubuntu programs available by the command line
- which could be shortcuts.


Tony - text mode commandline only AFAIK, and Cygwin likely a better 
implementation


Sean



___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Sean DALY]

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Tony Anderson 
wrote:

> Windows 10 is making Ubuntu programs available by the command line - which
> could be shortcuts.
>

Tony - text mode commandline only AFAIK, and Cygwin likely a better
implementation

Sean
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Windows is Coming

[Tony Anderson]

According to the news Google is making Android apps available on some 
Chromebooks (possibly including Sugarizer and GCompris).


Windows 10 is making Ubuntu programs available by the command line - 
which could be shortcuts.


Tony

On 05/20/2016 06:16 AM, iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:

Send IAEP mailing list submissions to
iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
iaep-ow...@lists.sugarlabs.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of IAEP digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: Sugar network/ School Network (Laura Vargas) (Laura Vargas)
2. Re: "Windows Is Coming" (Samuel Greenfeld)


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 11:26:28 +0800
From: Laura Vargas 
To: Tony Anderson 
Cc: iaep 
Subject: Re: [IAEP] Sugar network/ School Network (Laura Vargas)
Message-ID:

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Sebastian Silva]

El 19/05/16 a las 23:16, Samuel Greenfeld escribió:

> Alternatively (or perhaps alongside) a lot of schools are moving to
> Chromebooks these days.
> http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/03/googles-chromebooks-make-up-half-of-us-classroom-devices.html
>
> If Sugar wants to be used in such environments, then it needs to work
> in a Chromebook's web browser or as an installed app.

C Scott did some work on this in 2011:
http://cananian.livejournal.com/tag/nativeclient

It looks pretty far away currently as there still isn't a GTK+/Google
NACL API.
Perhaps the broadwayd backend could be made to work eventually.
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Samuel Greenfeld]

Alternatively (or perhaps alongside) a lot of schools are moving to
Chromebooks these days.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/03/googles-chromebooks-make-up-half-of-us-classroom-devices.html

If Sugar wants to be used in such environments, then it needs to work in a
Chromebook's web browser or as an installed app.

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

>
> Hi
>
> If we want to grow Sugar's userbase 10x, I think Sugar must run not only
> on GNU but also Windows and Mac OS X.
>
> 1. Rewriting everything in JavaScript for Sugarizer
>
> 2. Implementing "Sugar As A Service" with GTK3-Broadway,
> https://SandStorm.io and https://os.js.org
>
> 3. Packaging Sugar to run on any desktop
>
> I think this list is in descending order of effort.
>
> Sebastian just has done more AWESOME work to make Sugar run on any GNU
> free desktop...
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit/pull/3
>
> Once that effort wraps up, it will not be far for Sugar to run natively on
> non-free desktops.
>
> I kindly offer you the proposition that the majority of users of VLC and
> Firefox and LibreOffice and Inkscape and GIMP and Blender and all the other
> major free software projects are on Windows.
>
> More philosophically, I think that the most powerful attribute of libre
> software is that it can be ubiquitous. I think a ultra-cross-platform
> strategy that pushes this attribute to its limit is advantageous for the
> software freedom movement, because it - massively - widens the conversion
> funnel (
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/www-sugarlabs/blob/master/STRUCTURE.md) and
> gets people familiar with libre UIs and gets their data into libre formats,
> so that making the transition to a GNU desktop is actually very
> straightforward.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave
>
> [image: Inline images 1]"
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

[IAEP] "Windows Is Coming"

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

If we want to grow Sugar's userbase 10x, I think Sugar must run not only on
GNU but also Windows and Mac OS X.

1. Rewriting everything in JavaScript for Sugarizer

2. Implementing "Sugar As A Service" with GTK3-Broadway,
https://SandStorm.io and https://os.js.org

3. Packaging Sugar to run on any desktop

I think this list is in descending order of effort.

Sebastian just has done more AWESOME work to make Sugar run on any GNU free
desktop...

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit/pull/3

Once that effort wraps up, it will not be far for Sugar to run natively on
non-free desktops.

I kindly offer you the proposition that the majority of users of VLC and
Firefox and LibreOffice and Inkscape and GIMP and Blender and all the other
major free software projects are on Windows.

More philosophically, I think that the most powerful attribute of libre
software is that it can be ubiquitous. I think a ultra-cross-platform
strategy that pushes this attribute to its limit is advantageous for the
software freedom movement, because it - massively - widens the conversion
funnel (https://github.com/sugarlabs/www-sugarlabs/blob/master/STRUCTURE.md)
and gets people familiar with libre UIs and gets their data into libre
formats, so that making the transition to a GNU desktop is actually very
straightforward.

-- 
Cheers
Dave

[image: Inline images 1]"
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep