Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Jonas Smedegaardd...@jones.dk wrote: What if we developers only announce in developer-oriented forums and someone else (marketing team?) takes the task of communicating it to end users? Hmm. That sounds rigid to me. I suggest transforming it into this instead: Beware of the target audience of the list you post to. If you are unsure if your message could be misinterpreted (e.g. if you are a geek with a message to end users) then consider passing it through someone more devoted to communicating (e.g. the marketing team). Well put. SJ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On 17.06.2009, at 10:28, S Page wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Sebastian Dziallassebast...@when.com wrote: I'm very pleased to announce the first early preview of a new generation of SoaS XO-1 images. Excellent news, thanks! I indeed! Put them on a USB key or a SD card, plug them into your XO ... Yes! ... and execute: copy-nand u:\devxo-1.img or copy-nand sd:\devxo-1.img Nooo, I want to keep my working 8.2.1 in NAND. Can I simply boot my XO from the USB or SD card? No, these images are meant for NAND install. For USB/SD we'd need yet another image, OLPC used to provide ext3 ones. People should be aware that this is a one-way street. Once you run this new Sugar version, the Journal contents will be converted to a new format. AFAIK it cannot be reverted back to the older format. Actually, Sebastian, there should be a big WARNING in your announcements about this ... If not, is http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_to_backup_your_XO the best way to save my precious 8.2.1 image? Yes, that would be the only option to go back. - Bert - ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:40:31AM +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote: On 17.06.2009, at 10:28, S Page wrote: Nooo, I want to keep my working 8.2.1 in NAND. Can I simply boot my XO from the USB or SD card? No, these images are meant for NAND install. For USB/SD we'd need yet another image, OLPC used to provide ext3 ones. [...] Actually, Sebastian, there should be a big WARNING in your announcements about this ... Maybe we should only email sugar-devel. If we have to explain every time that copy-nand will overwrite your nand it's going to slow things down a lot. - Bert - Martin pgpfu2iuCRnPx.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:30, Sean DALYsdaly...@gmail.com wrote: In my view it's never a mistake to indicate that a procedure will wipe all data. We all have a learning curve and the first time I lost all my Journal entries including photos on an XO I wasn't happy about it. I think we shouldn't put the burden of communicating with the general public on the developers. Sebastian is doing an awesome amount of work and he may not have too many spare cycles to think about everything that is required to communicate to the different people. What if we developers only announce in developer-oriented forums and someone else (marketing team?) takes the task of communicating it to end users? Regards, Tomeu Sean On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Martin Denglermar...@martindengler.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:40:31AM +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote: On 17.06.2009, at 10:28, S Page wrote: Nooo, I want to keep my working 8.2.1 in NAND. Can I simply boot my XO from the USB or SD card? No, these images are meant for NAND install. For USB/SD we'd need yet another image, OLPC used to provide ext3 ones. [...] Actually, Sebastian, there should be a big WARNING in your announcements about this ... Maybe we should only email sugar-devel. If we have to explain every time that copy-nand will overwrite your nand it's going to slow things down a lot. - Bert - Martin ___ Sugar-devel mailing list sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On 06/17/2009 11:34 AM, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:30, Sean DALYsdaly...@gmail.com wrote: In my view it's never a mistake to indicate that a procedure will wipe all data. We all have a learning curve and the first time I lost all my Journal entries including photos on an XO I wasn't happy about it. I think we shouldn't put the burden of communicating with the general public on the developers. Sebastian is doing an awesome amount of work and he may not have too many spare cycles to think about everything that is required to communicate to the different people. What if we developers only announce in developer-oriented forums and someone else (marketing team?) takes the task of communicating it to end users? Regards, Tomeu That sounds like a very good idea to me. We need to split the workload and try to let people do mostly (of course ideally one should know what is happening a bit in all the teams) what they are good in. +1 from my side, Simon ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:34:40AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:30, Sean DALYsdaly...@gmail.com wrote: In my view it's never a mistake to indicate that a procedure will wipe all data. We all have a learning curve and the first time I lost all my Journal entries including photos on an XO I wasn't happy about it. I think we shouldn't put the burden of communicating with the general public on the developers. Sebastian is doing an awesome amount of work and he may not have too many spare cycles to think about everything that is required to communicate to the different people. What if we developers only announce in developer-oriented forums and someone else (marketing team?) takes the task of communicating it to end users? Hmm. That sounds rigid to me. I suggest transforming it into this instead: Beware of the target audience of the list you post to. If you are unsure if your message could be misinterpreted (e.g. if you are a geek with a message to end users) then consider passing it through someone more devoted to communicating (e.g. the marketing team). Kind regards, - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREDAAYFAko4yEEACgkQn7DbMsAkQLgpWQCfYCqCMmd3Y57JW3PKBbXH0hpG iEcAn3zqGljwToivcctyiH70/ygaoufI =uIhb -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:24:51PM +0200, Martin Langhoff wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Martin Denglermar...@martindengler.com wrote: It seems build engineers go to a a lot of effort to create multiple ginormous downloads in .img/.usb/.iso/.bootable.gz formats when they're 99% the same files laid out in different file system(s) with appropriate boot, config, and partition info. Could some day a tool like LiveUSB Creator download only updated files from the net ... It's because those engineers have been whined at about because many Actually, a tool that's most of this smartly, it's called jigdo, and _nobody uses it_. Even projects that do all the setup work and document how end users can use it see little or no usage. Reading the docs, I think that jidgo will allow the user to download (say) a .iso and a .img (NAND) file by downloading the files that are contained in them and then re-assembling the .iso and .img files? In this case it's something we/anyone can implement, though I'm not sure it's going to serve a large portion of the target audience (I imagine they'll want only one of the options). m pgp7M4FjbIn7J.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:41:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: What if we developers only announce in developer-oriented forums and someone else (marketing team?) takes the task of communicating it to end users? [...] I suggest transforming it into this instead: Beware of the target audience of the list you post to. If you are unsure if your message could be misinterpreted (e.g. if you are a geek with a message to end users) then consider passing it through someone more devoted to communicating (e.g. the marketing team). Good point, but I think the audience involved has self-selecting down to developer - tester. I don't think we need to be worried about anyone else. Do we need to worry about a person, who a) doesn't understand copy-nand but b) is subscribed to IAEP, suddenly deciding that they'll run mysterious commands on huge downloaded files and end up with something they didn't expect? I don't think that more than a handful of people will do that, if that. Kind regards, - Jonas Martin pgpHlDKosmPxV.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On 17.06.2009, at 12:56, Martin Dengler wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:41:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: What if we developers only announce in developer-oriented forums and someone else (marketing team?) takes the task of communicating it to end users? [...] I suggest transforming it into this instead: Beware of the target audience of the list you post to. If you are unsure if your message could be misinterpreted (e.g. if you are a geek with a message to end users) then consider passing it through someone more devoted to communicating (e.g. the marketing team). Good point, but I think the audience involved has self-selecting down to developer - tester. I don't think we need to be worried about anyone else. Do we need to worry about a person, who a) doesn't understand copy-nand but b) is subscribed to IAEP, suddenly deciding that they'll run mysterious commands on huge downloaded files and end up with something they didn't expect? I don't think that more than a handful of people will do that, if that. Many developers can't imagine with how little understanding actual end users approach tasks like this. Even slapping on a big WARNING sign does not really prevent them from severely damaging their system. For you it seems obvious nobody should undertake this unless they know exactly what they're doing. Which is precisely the problem. Saying that developers should not talk to users is only half a joke. It's often frustrating for both sides. You need someone who can think on both levels to mediate. - Bert - ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Martin Denglermar...@martindengler.com wrote: Reading the docs, I think that jidgo will allow the user to download (say) a .iso and a .img (NAND) file by downloading the files that are contained in them and then re-assembling the .iso and .img files? You might need to track the iso and img as separate things. But updates to the newer iso or img are just a delta. If iso or NAND-formatted img files were rsync-friendly, this wouldn't be needed. In any case, we can do the technical part alright. We're good at this. The social part is more of a puzzle. Jigdo adds a step and a tool to the process and for some reason that puts people off. The snarky analysis would be: - repeated large downloads are annoying enough to complain - but not enough to use a new tool which is blatantly incomplete. The real thing is that using jigdo depends on jigdo being part of the everyday geek arsenal. It's not, and that's a huge barrier. cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 01:38:32PM +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote: On 17.06.2009, at 12:56, Martin Dengler wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:41:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: What if we developers only announce in developer-oriented forums and someone else (marketing team?) takes the task of communicating it to end users? [...] I suggest transforming it into this instead: Beware of the target audience of the list you post to. If you are unsure if your message could be misinterpreted (e.g. if you are a geek with a message to end users) then consider passing it through someone more devoted to communicating (e.g. the marketing team). Good point, but I think the audience involved has self-selecting down to developer - tester. I don't think we need to be worried about anyone else. Do we need to worry about a person, who a) doesn't understand copy-nand but b) is subscribed to IAEP, suddenly deciding that they'll run mysterious commands on huge downloaded files and end up with something they didn't expect? I don't think that more than a handful of people will do that, if that. Many developers can't imagine with how little understanding actual end users approach tasks like this. Even slapping on a big WARNING sign does not really prevent them from severely damaging their system. I appreciate the scope of the problem that we're telling lots of people about things that they don't understand...: Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:12:10 +0100 From: Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1 To: S Page skierp...@gmail.com Spend a few seconds contemplating how easy those steps can be. Now contemplate how many ways people might screw up each step (mis-type the removable device letter? assume that dd just adds some stuff to their USB stick and get upset when it overwrites their thesis?). ...but I don't think that's the problem: For you it seems obvious nobody should undertake this unless they know exactly what they're doing. Which is precisely the problem. No, that's not the problem. It's people that don't know that they don't know what they're doing. My point is that I think we're worrying about people that a) want to be testers; and b) are so keen that they go copy-nanding (after getting a devkey, etc.) without understanding what they're doing. As I'm saying I don't think there are enough people like that on IAEP/sugar-devel to worry about, and you're saying there are (IIUC). Well, I'm happy to leave it at that. Saying that developers should not talk to users is only half a joke. It's often frustrating for both sides. You need someone who can think on both levels to mediate. I agree, but I think most developers [on this project] *can* but just lack the time. And given the additional time it'd take, I think (as I said directly to S Page and as others have said) that someone else should do it if it's a problem. But I'm glad sdz sent his mail. - Bert - Martin pgpBq9ZmeeHeF.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Show Must Go On - SoaS for the XO-1
On 17.06.2009, at 14:09, Martin Dengler wrote: No, that's not the problem. It's people that don't know that they don't know what they're doing. My point is that I think we're worrying about people that a) want to be testers; and b) are so keen that they go copy-nanding (after getting a devkey, etc.) without understanding what they're doing. As I'm saying I don't think there are enough people like that on IAEP/sugar-devel to worry about, and you're saying there are (IIUC). I for one would *hope* that on the IAEP list many people do participate who are not necessarily familiar with technical details, but who care deeply about education. Care so much in fact that they are not even detained by these awkward instructions when they try to help. In know there were such people in the OLPC community, and hopefully we are not driving them away by too much tech-talk that is only remotely related to the actual educational goals of the project. Well, I'm happy to leave it at that. Me too. - Bert - ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
