Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
Walther, It's great to hear that people are doing the combined developer <-> teacher <-> student approach. It was just a rhetorical idea so it's awesome to see it occurring in practice :) ReckonPrimer looks quite cool btw. I especially like how the development has been tied to pedagogical efforts. Do you think it will be stable enough to post on activities.sugarlabs.org soon? Best regards, Wade 2010/1/8 Walther Neuper : > Hi Wade, > > thanks for your initiative ! > > We would like to adjust (contribute?) to your efforts, since we just begin > to try the same in a mini-environment: (student-)developers at our > university + teacher students + teachers at Austrian schools. > > Walther > PS: preliminary homepage www.ist.tugraz.at/projects/isac/rp > > Wade Brainerd wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Aleksey Lim >> wrote: >> >>> >>> All mentioned above could be(already) done in existed env. But the major >>> idea of collab.sl.o proposal is bringing life to existed scheme by >>> stimulating users to share their needs(due to having convenient >>> "ASLO for needs" site). >>> >> >> Hi Aleksey, >> >> We definitely need to improve our lines of communication with users >> (deployments, teachers, students and casual). As a programmer I >> appreciate a good technical solution to this problem. >> >> I think it's more a personal problem than a tech problem though. [...] > > -- > > Walther Neuper Mailto: neu...@ist.tugraz.at > Institute for Software Technology Tel: +43-(0)316/873-5728 > University of Technology Fax: +43-(0)316/873-5706 > Graz, Austria Home: www.ist.tugraz.at/neuper > > > ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
n Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 5:30 AM, Gerald Ardito wrote: > Wade, > > You said: > " if only we could put every Sugar developer > at a deployment for a week." > > I am a teacher and doctoral student managing a deployment of 150 XOs/SOAS > and would love to have this happen! Hi Gerald, Can I find more information about your deployment somewhere? Best, -Wade ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:37, Walther Neuper wrote: > Hi Wade, > > thanks for your initiative ! > > We would like to adjust (contribute?) to your efforts, since we just > begin to try the same in a mini-environment: (student-)developers at our > university + teacher students + teachers at Austrian schools. That sounds great! Please keep us posted. If I can help in any way, we could meet either in Graz or in Prague. Regards, Tomeu > Walther > PS: preliminary homepage www.ist.tugraz.at/projects/isac/rp > > Wade Brainerd wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Aleksey Lim wrote: >> >>> All mentioned above could be(already) done in existed env. But the major >>> idea of collab.sl.o proposal is bringing life to existed scheme by >>> stimulating users to share their needs(due to having convenient >>> "ASLO for needs" site). >>> >> >> Hi Aleksey, >> >> We definitely need to improve our lines of communication with users >> (deployments, teachers, students and casual). As a programmer I >> appreciate a good technical solution to this problem. >> >> I think it's more a personal problem than a tech problem though. [...] > -- > > Walther Neuper Mailto: neu...@ist.tugraz.at > Institute for Software Technology Tel: +43-(0)316/873-5728 > University of Technology Fax: +43-(0)316/873-5706 > Graz, Austria Home: www.ist.tugraz.at/neuper > > > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:30, Gerald Ardito wrote: > Wade, > > You said: > " if only we could put every Sugar developer > at a deployment for a week." > > I am a teacher and doctoral student managing a deployment of 150 XOs/SOAS > and would love to have this happen! Is your deployment in New York? Regards, Tomeu > Gerald > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 11:28 PM, Wade Brainerd wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Aleksey Lim >> wrote: >> > All mentioned above could be(already) done in existed env. But the major >> > idea of collab.sl.o proposal is bringing life to existed scheme by >> > stimulating users to share their needs(due to having convenient >> > "ASLO for needs" site). >> >> Hi Aleksey, >> >> We definitely need to improve our lines of communication with users >> (deployments, teachers, students and casual). As a programmer I >> appreciate a good technical solution to this problem. >> >> I think it's more a personal problem than a tech problem though. E.g. >> we need better relationships between developers and users, more than >> we need a better form to fill in. And that's really a job for the >> project leadership, mostly by introducing people and encouraging them >> to follow up. Tomeu's recent visit to Laboratorio Tecnológico del >> Uruguay is a great example; if only we could put every Sugar developer >> at a deployment for a week. I joined the sur list and use Google >> Translate to feel at least a little bit plugged in :) Still, I >> occasionally send emails to deployments asking things like "Are you >> guys using Typing Turtle?" and "What kinds of activities could you >> use?" but rarely hear back. I guess it's a problem when most of the >> developers speak one language, and most of the users speak one of many >> others. >> >> > I'm personally for lightweight collab.sl.o(to meet only mentioned above >> > issues) and reusing existed development related resources like >> > wiki/launchpad/mls for development process. >> >> What do you think about making this idea into an activity, instead of >> a website? We could take my "Report a Problem" control panel and turn >> it into a "Feedback" activity. I already have the "log collector" >> server set up on SL infrastructure - we could turn the feedback into a >> RSS feed for developers who could detect trends. I'm not sure about >> the voting stuff - we hardly get any reviews on ASLO as it is, my >> Typing Turtle score is down to 3 stars because of one middle school >> kid :) >> >> (BTW, there seems to not be much user representation in the discussion >> about 0.88 features, which may provide some motivation for this topic) >> >> -Wade >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 05:28, Wade Brainerd wrote: > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Aleksey Lim wrote: >> All mentioned above could be(already) done in existed env. But the major >> idea of collab.sl.o proposal is bringing life to existed scheme by >> stimulating users to share their needs(due to having convenient >> "ASLO for needs" site). > > Hi Aleksey, > > We definitely need to improve our lines of communication with users > (deployments, teachers, students and casual). As a programmer I > appreciate a good technical solution to this problem. > > I think it's more a personal problem than a tech problem though. E.g. > we need better relationships between developers and users, more than > we need a better form to fill in. This is certainly my opinion as well. The language problem is there, but though I'm a native spanish speaker I rarely get a reply when contacting someone from a deployment. Though if most people at SLs spoke spanish, then we could work stronger in this area. Any infrastructure we set up for feedback needs to take into account that most of our users are not comfortable using english, and that's a bit hard of a problem. Regards, Tomeu > And that's really a job for the > project leadership, mostly by introducing people and encouraging them > to follow up. Tomeu's recent visit to Laboratorio Tecnológico del > Uruguay is a great example; if only we could put every Sugar developer > at a deployment for a week. I joined the sur list and use Google > Translate to feel at least a little bit plugged in :) Still, I > occasionally send emails to deployments asking things like "Are you > guys using Typing Turtle?" and "What kinds of activities could you > use?" but rarely hear back. I guess it's a problem when most of the > developers speak one language, and most of the users speak one of many > others. > >> I'm personally for lightweight collab.sl.o(to meet only mentioned above >> issues) and reusing existed development related resources like >> wiki/launchpad/mls for development process. > > What do you think about making this idea into an activity, instead of > a website? We could take my "Report a Problem" control panel and turn > it into a "Feedback" activity. I already have the "log collector" > server set up on SL infrastructure - we could turn the feedback into a > RSS feed for developers who could detect trends. I'm not sure about > the voting stuff - we hardly get any reviews on ASLO as it is, my > Typing Turtle score is down to 3 stars because of one middle school > kid :) > > (BTW, there seems to not be much user representation in the discussion > about 0.88 features, which may provide some motivation for this topic) > > -Wade > ___ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
Wade, You said: " if only we could put every Sugar developer at a deployment for a week." I am a teacher and doctoral student managing a deployment of 150 XOs/SOAS and would love to have this happen! Gerald On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Walther Neuper wrote: > Hi Wade, > > thanks for your initiative ! > > We would like to adjust (contribute?) to your efforts, since we just > begin to try the same in a mini-environment: (student-)developers at our > university + teacher students + teachers at Austrian schools. > > Walther > PS: preliminary homepage www.ist.tugraz.at/projects/isac/rp > > Wade Brainerd wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Aleksey Lim > wrote: > > > >> All mentioned above could be(already) done in existed env. But the major > >> idea of collab.sl.o proposal is bringing life to existed scheme by > >> stimulating users to share their needs(due to having convenient > >> "ASLO for needs" site). > >> > > > > Hi Aleksey, > > > > We definitely need to improve our lines of communication with users > > (deployments, teachers, students and casual). As a programmer I > > appreciate a good technical solution to this problem. > > > > I think it's more a personal problem than a tech problem though. [...] > -- > > Walther Neuper Mailto: neu...@ist.tugraz.at > Institute for Software Technology Tel: +43-(0)316/873-5728 > University of Technology Fax: +43-(0)316/873-5706 > Graz, Austria Home: www.ist.tugraz.at/neuper > > > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 11:28:52PM -0500, Wade Brainerd wrote: > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Aleksey Lim wrote: > > All mentioned above could be(already) done in existed env. But the major > > idea of collab.sl.o proposal is bringing life to existed scheme by > > stimulating users to share their needs(due to having convenient > > "ASLO for needs" site). > > Hi Aleksey, > > We definitely need to improve our lines of communication with users > (deployments, teachers, students and casual). As a programmer I > appreciate a good technical solution to this problem. > > I think it's more a personal problem than a tech problem though. E.g. > we need better relationships between developers and users, more than > we need a better form to fill in. And that's really a job for the > project leadership, mostly by introducing people and encouraging them > to follow up. Tomeu's recent visit to Laboratorio Tecnológico del > Uruguay is a great example; if only we could put every Sugar developer > at a deployment for a week. I joined the sur list and use Google > Translate to feel at least a little bit plugged in :) Still, I > occasionally send emails to deployments asking things like "Are you > guys using Typing Turtle?" and "What kinds of activities could you > use?" but rarely hear back. I guess it's a problem when most of the > developers speak one language, and most of the users speak one of many > others. Agree, I just think we can work in both directions, personal contacts(not all developers could follow this way, especially casual participants) and create convenient tool to treat users needs. > > I'm personally for lightweight collab.sl.o(to meet only mentioned above > > issues) and reusing existed development related resources like > > wiki/launchpad/mls for development process. > > What do you think about making this idea into an activity, instead of > a website? We could take my "Report a Problem" control panel and turn > it into a "Feedback" activity. I already have the "log collector" > server set up on SL infrastructure - we could turn the feedback into a > RSS feed for developers who could detect trends. I'm not sure about > the voting stuff - we hardly get any reviews on ASLO as it is, my > Typing Turtle score is down to 3 stars because of one middle school > kid :) Good catch! I've added it to http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Collab_mockup#Possible_implementations Of course it has disadvantage as well in case of running sugar and this activity. It won't play good in case of casual contributor e.g. casual designer who wants to contribute to some education project and has a spare time to compose some peace of art. But maybe this activity is worth trying, we at least can probe some ideas. > (BTW, there seems to not be much user representation in the discussion > about 0.88 features, which may provide some motivation for this topic) > > -Wade > -- Aleksey ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Aleksey Lim wrote: > All mentioned above could be(already) done in existed env. But the major > idea of collab.sl.o proposal is bringing life to existed scheme by > stimulating users to share their needs(due to having convenient > "ASLO for needs" site). Hi Aleksey, We definitely need to improve our lines of communication with users (deployments, teachers, students and casual). As a programmer I appreciate a good technical solution to this problem. I think it's more a personal problem than a tech problem though. E.g. we need better relationships between developers and users, more than we need a better form to fill in. And that's really a job for the project leadership, mostly by introducing people and encouraging them to follow up. Tomeu's recent visit to Laboratorio Tecnológico del Uruguay is a great example; if only we could put every Sugar developer at a deployment for a week. I joined the sur list and use Google Translate to feel at least a little bit plugged in :) Still, I occasionally send emails to deployments asking things like "Are you guys using Typing Turtle?" and "What kinds of activities could you use?" but rarely hear back. I guess it's a problem when most of the developers speak one language, and most of the users speak one of many others. > I'm personally for lightweight collab.sl.o(to meet only mentioned above > issues) and reusing existed development related resources like > wiki/launchpad/mls for development process. What do you think about making this idea into an activity, instead of a website? We could take my "Report a Problem" control panel and turn it into a "Feedback" activity. I already have the "log collector" server set up on SL infrastructure - we could turn the feedback into a RSS feed for developers who could detect trends. I'm not sure about the voting stuff - we hardly get any reviews on ASLO as it is, my Typing Turtle score is down to 3 stars because of one middle school kid :) (BTW, there seems to not be much user representation in the discussion about 0.88 features, which may provide some motivation for this topic) -Wade ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 01:34:04PM +0100, Martin Langhoff wrote: > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Aleksey Lim wrote: > > maybe I wasn't enough clear, tools like wiki are to common, e.g. why > > people use bugs tracker instead of wiki or mls. > > Trackers, um, track state of the issues/bugs/tasks, and let you > > - form a narrow forum of discussion on a very specific topic - > minimising noise at the expense of reducing the number of eyes > > - track completion towards an overall goal > > Mailing lists have again a different dynamic. But what you are looking > for seems to me exactly what the feature request => blueprints => > tracker workflow achieves. SL has it right now. Major concerns I had in mind were: * let non-tech users(not even deployments) to expose theirs requests in simple and convenient way: * tools like wiki are too common and we have to remind people all time to follow some rules * much better to have "ASLO for requests(needs)", when user opens site which contain only requests(w/o bunch of related development info) * people can browse/vote/create requests and track implementation progress(just fact of completion). All development info could be accessible from development resources(request page could contain links). * having such convenient tool will stimulate sugar users to share their needs and make sugar development process more flexible when developers do what is a real need for sugar users rather what they think is * such collab.sl.o could be the first place where interested in contribution people could go, even casual participant e.g. if you are a designer and have spare time for these weekends, just open collab.sl.o, search for artwork requests and implement some of them (browsing wiki or ml could be painful) * one of side effects of such site would be more coordinated development process, developers know what is going on and where the place they can contribute right now All mentioned above could be(already) done in existed env. But the major idea of collab.sl.o proposal is bringing life to existed scheme by stimulating users to share their needs(due to having convenient "ASLO for needs" site). About launchpad, maybe I'm wrong but launchpad seems to me targeted more for developers and experienced users who test development releases or at least post bugs. I'm personally for lightweight collab.sl.o(to meet only mentioned above issues) and reusing existed development related resources like wiki/launchpad/mls for development process. -- Aleksey ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Aleksey Lim wrote: > maybe I wasn't enough clear, tools like wiki are to common, e.g. why > people use bugs tracker instead of wiki or mls. Trackers, um, track state of the issues/bugs/tasks, and let you - form a narrow forum of discussion on a very specific topic - minimising noise at the expense of reducing the number of eyes - track completion towards an overall goal Mailing lists have again a different dynamic. But what you are looking for seems to me exactly what the feature request => blueprints => tracker workflow achieves. SL has it right now. Of course, maybe I am misunderstanding the scenario you are trying to address. cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 12:20:30PM +, Aleksey Lim wrote: > On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 12:22:55PM +0100, Martin Langhoff wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Aleksey Lim wrote: > > > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Collab_mockup > > > > I see that you are pointing to Ubuntu's "brainstorm", which has a huge > > overlap with the wiki-ish "blueprints" and tasks/bugs as tracked in > > launchpad/malone. > > it was just a possible way to go > > > Comparing Ubuntu's brainstorm with their own use of > > blueprints+bugtracker, the blueprints+bugtracker win big time. > > Brainstorm takes a lot of page / screen real state for very few > > "tasks", and the quality of discussion/interaction isn't very high. > > > > Maybe a better "path" for users to get into the wikipages that Walter > > mentioned (Feature Request, etc) would work? > > well, as was mentioned in this thread, collab.sl.o is not intended to do > something unique(but maybe unique view), everything could be done reusing > existed infrastructure. > > The problem with existed methods could be costs of supporting, keeping in > mind casual and decentralized sugar nature. Well other FOSS projects > have these issues as well but do we have many community coordinators who > will, on regular bases, track various sources like dozen of wiki pages > (on several servers), dozen emails(on several servers) to coordinate all > these efforts. Also collab.sl.o is not intended to be organisation > driven portal but community driven. For example OLPC could have more > effective ways to treat all these issues due to having administrative > resources, collab.sl.o could give community replacement of OLPC's > administrative resource. maybe I wasn't enough clear, tools like wiki are to common, e.g. why people use bugs tracker instead of wiki or mls. > Another possible issue is not friendly to non-tech and casual sugar > users, with collab.sl.o's requester mode, it could be more useful for > people who lacks of some feature and wants to: expose this, track > progress of implementation w/o UI which encumbered with many development > related components. Possible analogy is wiki.laptop.org vs. ASLO. > > -- > Aleksey -- Aleksey ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 12:22:55PM +0100, Martin Langhoff wrote: > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Aleksey Lim wrote: > > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Collab_mockup > > I see that you are pointing to Ubuntu's "brainstorm", which has a huge > overlap with the wiki-ish "blueprints" and tasks/bugs as tracked in > launchpad/malone. it was just a possible way to go > Comparing Ubuntu's brainstorm with their own use of > blueprints+bugtracker, the blueprints+bugtracker win big time. > Brainstorm takes a lot of page / screen real state for very few > "tasks", and the quality of discussion/interaction isn't very high. > > Maybe a better "path" for users to get into the wikipages that Walter > mentioned (Feature Request, etc) would work? well, as was mentioned in this thread, collab.sl.o is not intended to do something unique(but maybe unique view), everything could be done reusing existed infrastructure. The problem with existed methods could be costs of supporting, keeping in mind casual and decentralized sugar nature. Well other FOSS projects have these issues as well but do we have many community coordinators who will, on regular bases, track various sources like dozen of wiki pages (on several servers), dozen emails(on several servers) to coordinate all these efforts. Also collab.sl.o is not intended to be organisation driven portal but community driven. For example OLPC could have more effective ways to treat all these issues due to having administrative resources, collab.sl.o could give community replacement of OLPC's administrative resource. Another possible issue is not friendly to non-tech and casual sugar users, with collab.sl.o's requester mode, it could be more useful for people who lacks of some feature and wants to: expose this, track progress of implementation w/o UI which encumbered with many development related components. Possible analogy is wiki.laptop.org vs. ASLO. -- Aleksey ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Mockup for collab.sugarlabs.org
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Aleksey Lim wrote: > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Collab_mockup I see that you are pointing to Ubuntu's "brainstorm", which has a huge overlap with the wiki-ish "blueprints" and tasks/bugs as tracked in launchpad/malone. Comparing Ubuntu's brainstorm with their own use of blueprints+bugtracker, the blueprints+bugtracker win big time. Brainstorm takes a lot of page / screen real state for very few "tasks", and the quality of discussion/interaction isn't very high. Maybe a better "path" for users to get into the wikipages that Walter mentioned (Feature Request, etc) would work? cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
