subject:"1TB EAV Support"

Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-11 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In <4e92f926.4040...@mentor-services.com>, on 10/10/2011
   at 09:54 AM, Mike Myers  said:

>We have a much larger DS8100 that will be available to us in a few
>weeks  which we can configure and add any mod-27s if they make sense
>at that time.

Don't forget to take your D/R site into account.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-10 Thread Mike Myers


John:

Thanks. I am leaning towards 3390-9 volumes throughout, as this is going 
to be z/OS running as a zVM guest and the zVM guy is expressing a 
preference for mod 9s for zVM. I have seen very little need for larger 
volumes that mod-9s for z/OS so far.


It was basically a question of what would be the most efficient way of 
formatting the DS6800's storage without having to be concerned about 
finding really large collections of related data sets to make real use 
of a mod-27.


We have a much larger DS8100 that will be available to us in a few weeks 
which we can configure and add any mod-27s if they make sense at that time.


Mike

On 10/10/2011 08:53 AM, John Eells wrote:

The COD requires 3390-9 or larger volumes.

In ServerPac, z/OS itself is not in dump/restore format, but in data 
set unload (IEBCOPY, IEBGENER, IDCAMS, pax) format.  The data sets are 
allocated in the ISPF dialog.


The target libraries for z/OS itself will probably still fit on three 
to five 3390-3s, and DLIBs on another two to four, depending on what 
other products you order.  You need a volume large enough to contain 
the largest data set, which is probably the root filesystem unless you 
convert it to a multivolume data set.  I don't know what the second 
largest data set is, but anyone with a ServerPac dialog can see 
quickly by using Modify System Layout's View and Change option to 
display data sets by size.  Whatever that data set might be sets the 
lower reasonable practical limit for the volume size.  (You could use 
volumes of different sizes if you wanted to...but who wants to?)


But, it's sure to be a lot more convenient on 3390-9s or on a 3390-27.

Mike Myers wrote:

Lim:

I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the
DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?

Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac 
DVDs.

But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
Regards Lim ML






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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-10 Thread John Eells


The COD requires 3390-9 or larger volumes.

In ServerPac, z/OS itself is not in dump/restore format, but in data set 
unload (IEBCOPY, IEBGENER, IDCAMS, pax) format.  The data sets are 
allocated in the ISPF dialog.


The target libraries for z/OS itself will probably still fit on three to 
five 3390-3s, and DLIBs on another two to four, depending on what other 
products you order.  You need a volume large enough to contain the 
largest data set, which is probably the root filesystem unless you 
convert it to a multivolume data set.  I don't know what the second 
largest data set is, but anyone with a ServerPac dialog can see quickly 
by using Modify System Layout's View and Change option to display data 
sets by size.  Whatever that data set might be sets the lower reasonable 
practical limit for the volume size.  (You could use volumes of 
different sizes if you wanted to...but who wants to?)


But, it's sure to be a lot more convenient on 3390-9s or on a 3390-27.

Mike Myers wrote:

Lim:

I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the
DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?

Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:

Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
Regards Lim ML




--
John Eells
z/OS Technical Marketing
IBM Poughkeepsie
ee...@us.ibm.com

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-08 Thread Lim Ming Liang

Yes, when I did the ServerPac install for z/OS 1.12, somehow the 3390-9 
fit the auto system  layout quite nicely with the following system packs;

xxRES1
xxRES2
xxSYS1
xxDIS1
xxDIS2

of course that also depend on your site IBM ordered contents.
Regards Lim ML

On 08/10/11 10:10 PM, Mike Myers wrote:

Lim:

Thank you. I wanted to know because I am configuring some DS6800 
storage on a system I am installing. We will first install zVM from 
DVD and will be getting z/OS in this new DVD format and I wanted to 
know what size 3390s to configure. I was thinking that 3390-9 would be 
right.


Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 11:33 PM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
I depend on the size of the ordered contents, you may have to build a 
?GB size of USS dir to contain the uploaded contents from the DVDs, 
at the Driver system.
When you install the ServerPac new z/OS target system, it can go to 
3390-3, 3390-9 dasd system layout.

Regards Lim ML

On 08/10/11 12:29 AM, Mike Myers wrote:

Lim:

I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are 
the DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?


Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac 
DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the 
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .

Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:

Timothy Sipples wrote:
A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- 
thank

you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a 
greenfield site z196 without a tape drive?


Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 
3590 tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What 
has changed?


Thanks,
Roger Bowler



--Original message--
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, 
go for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to 
do that.

This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1


[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- 
thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense 
to have

tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]


Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a 
good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously 
designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest 
definition of the

term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower 
prices -- but
without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few 
of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage 
market is

extremely competitive and has been for decades.


This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get 
it. "But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you 
can even

attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's 
guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your 
nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic 
equipment.

You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?


The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, 
starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. 
They have
different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, 
testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, 
disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I 
know it's

shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to 
invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, 
maybe they

wouldn't be mainframes.


But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those 
things, go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer 
function)

storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.


There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's 
stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's 
interesting,

even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and 
in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It 
depends, but

for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.


As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, 
especially

when I'm controversial.


---

Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-08 Thread Mike Myers


Lim:

Thank you. I wanted to know because I am configuring some DS6800 storage 
on a system I am installing. We will first install zVM from DVD and will 
be getting z/OS in this new DVD format and I wanted to know what size 
3390s to configure. I was thinking that 3390-9 would be right.


Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 11:33 PM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
I depend on the size of the ordered contents, you may have to build a 
?GB size of USS dir to contain the uploaded contents from the DVDs, at 
the Driver system.
When you install the ServerPac new z/OS target system, it can go to 
3390-3, 3390-9 dasd system layout.

Regards Lim ML

On 08/10/11 12:29 AM, Mike Myers wrote:

Lim:

I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the 
DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?


Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac 
DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the 
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .

Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:

Timothy Sipples wrote:
A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- 
thank

you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield 
site z196 without a tape drive?


Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 
tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has 
changed?


Thanks,
Roger Bowler



--Original message--
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, 
go for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to 
do that.

This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1


[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- 
thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense 
to have

tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]


Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a 
good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously 
designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition 
of the

term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices 
-- but
without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of 
you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage 
market is

extremely competitive and has been for decades.


This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. 
"But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you 
can even

attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your 
nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic 
equipment.

You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?


The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, 
starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. 
They have

different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I 
know it's

shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to 
invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, 
maybe they

wouldn't be mainframes.


But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those 
things, go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer 
function)

storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.


There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's 
stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's 
interesting,

even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and 
in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It 
depends, but

for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.


As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, 
especially

when I'm controversial.


---- 


Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
--

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff /

Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread Lim Ming Liang


Hi Mike,
This may of interest to you, 
http://public.dhe.ibm.com/common/ssi/ecm/en/zsq03038usen/ZSQ03038USEN.PDF


Regards Lim ML

On 08/10/11 12:29 AM, Mike Myers wrote:

Lim:

I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the 
DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?


Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac 
DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the 
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .

Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:

Timothy Sipples wrote:

A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield 
site z196 without a tape drive?


Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 
tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has 
changed?


Thanks,
Roger Bowler



--Original message--
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go 
for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do 
that.

This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1


[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense 
to have

tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]


Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a 
good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously 
designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition 
of the

term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices 
-- but

without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage 
market is

extremely competitive and has been for decades.


This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. 
"But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you 
can even

attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your 
nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic 
equipment.

You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?


The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, 
starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. 
They have

different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I 
know it's

shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to 
invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, 
maybe they

wouldn't be mainframes.


But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, 
go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer 
function)

storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.


There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's 
stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's 
interesting,

even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and 
in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It 
depends, but

for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.


As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, 
especially

when I'm controversial.


---- 


Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
--

--
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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread Lim Ming Liang

I depend on the size of the ordered contents, you may have to build a 
?GB size of USS dir to contain the uploaded contents from the DVDs, at 
the Driver system.
When you install the ServerPac new z/OS target system, it can go to 
3390-3, 3390-9 dasd system layout.

Regards Lim ML

On 08/10/11 12:29 AM, Mike Myers wrote:

Lim:

I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the 
DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?


Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac 
DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the 
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .

Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:

Timothy Sipples wrote:

A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield 
site z196 without a tape drive?


Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 
tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has 
changed?


Thanks,
Roger Bowler



--Original message--
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go 
for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do 
that.

This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1


[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense 
to have

tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]


Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a 
good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously 
designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition 
of the

term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices 
-- but

without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage 
market is

extremely competitive and has been for decades.


This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. 
"But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you 
can even

attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your 
nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic 
equipment.

You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?


The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, 
starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. 
They have

different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I 
know it's

shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to 
invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, 
maybe they

wouldn't be mainframes.


But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, 
go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer 
function)

storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.


There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's 
stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's 
interesting,

even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and 
in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It 
depends, but

for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.


As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, 
especially

when I'm controversial.


---- 


Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
--

--
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send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread David Andrews

On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 12:53 -0400, John Eells wrote:
> We support the COD's use only for installing z/OS ... safer--and not
> very much overhead after you have done it the first time--to create a
> rescue system of your own.  I believe someone on the list (Mark
> Zelden?) ... 2 hours *per DVD.*

All three points understood, and Mark's onepack is indeed useful.  I
just thought the COD might be a warm fuzzy to stick in with the IOCP.
Thanks.

-- 
David Andrews
A. Duda & Sons, Inc.
david.andr...@duda.com

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In <4e8eff5b.7040...@bremultibank.com.pl>, on 10/07/2011
   at 03:32 PM, "R.S."  said:

>In simple words, a *new* z/OS customer still needs a tape for initial
> installation.

The words may be simple, but they're also false and not what the OP
wrote.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
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send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread John Eells


David Andrews wrote:

On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 10:11 -0400, John Eells wrote:

See Topic 3.1, What is the Customized Offerings Driver?, at:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/e0z2b1c0/3.1?SHELF=EZ2ZO213&DT=20110615113655


John, is the COD usable as a "rescue" system?  (Yeah, I see that it
takes two hours simply to restore from DVD.  But it might give me a warm
feeling just to have a current DVD in a vault somewhere.)


First: We support the COD's use only for installing z/OS.  If you are 
doing anything else with it and it doesn't work you're on your own.


For any number of configuration and security reasons I think it's 
safer--and not very much overhead after you have done it the first 
time--to create a rescue system of your own.  I believe someone on the 
list (Mark Zelden?) has a sample you can use to create a one-volume 
rescue system.  Additionally, if you include all the parts of z/OS 
you're supposed to install when you build a rescue system, we'd support 
it through normal service processes were there a problem.


Having said that, if the COD's I/O configuration matches the IOCDS 
you're using, things like TSO/E and ISPF, and DFSMSdss (assuming you are 
licensed for it) *should* work in the hardware environments that were 
supported when that copy of the COD was created since they are required 
to install z/OS using one installation method or another.


Oh, and that estimate is 2 hours *per DVD.*  It's actually a pessimistic 
estimate for most people because the data rates supported on newer HMCs 
are significantly better than those for the oldest possible HMCs we used 
to calculate it, but we didn't want tell people to expect 30 minutes per 
DVD and then have it take 2 hours for each one.


--
John Eells
z/OS Technical Marketing
IBM Poughkeepsie
ee...@us.ibm.com

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread Mike Myers


Lim:

I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the 
DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?


Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:

Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the 
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .

Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:

Timothy Sipples wrote:

A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield 
site z196 without a tape drive?


Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 
tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has 
changed?


Thanks,
Roger Bowler



--Original message--
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do 
that.

This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1


[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to 
have

tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]


Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good 
idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously 
designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition 
of the

term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices 
-- but

without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage 
market is

extremely competitive and has been for decades.


This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. 
"But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can 
even

attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear 
power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic 
equipment.

You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?


The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting 
with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They 
have

different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know 
it's

shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent 
them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe 
they

wouldn't be mainframes.


But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, 
go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer 
function)

storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.


There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's 
stipulate

that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in 
other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, 
but

for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.


As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, 
especially

when I'm controversial.


---- 


Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread David Andrews

On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 10:11 -0400, John Eells wrote:
> See Topic 3.1, What is the Customized Offerings Driver?, at:
> http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/e0z2b1c0/3.1?SHELF=EZ2ZO213&DT=20110615113655

John, is the COD usable as a "rescue" system?  (Yeah, I see that it
takes two hours simply to restore from DVD.  But it might give me a warm
feeling just to have a current DVD in a vault somewhere.)

-- 
David Andrews
A. Duda & Sons, Inc.
david.andr...@duda.com

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread Lim Ming Liang

Ah, yes, Roger's "a greenfield site" means a brand new start-up site, I 
presumed.

Sorry, I did not catch those American English.
Anyone still remember the video clip of "Tape is Dead" posted in one of 
the mainframe forums ? I really enjoyed that.:-D

Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 9:32 PM, R.S. wrote:

W dniu 2011-10-07 15:10, Lim Ming Liang pisze:
Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac 
DVDs.

But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
Regards Lim ML


In simple words, a *new* z/OS customer still needs a tape for initial 
installation.



Maybe IBM believes that such case - new z/OS customer and no plans to 
use tapes is so rare that they deliver/rent some tape drive for free...






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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread John Eells

I'm not Timothy, but since I was involved in formulating the way to do this:

1. Order the Customized Offerings Driver (aka COD, 5751-COD) on DVD.
2. Modify the default IOCDS to support the COD's I/O configuration using
the installation instructions that come with the COD.
3. Restore the COD system using the instructions that come with it, and
the optical drive in the HMC.

4. Use the COD system to install your z/OS ServerPac.

See Topic 3.1, What is the Customized Offerings Driver?, at:

http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/e0z2b1c0/3.1?SHELF=EZ2ZO213&DT=20110615113655

Roger Bowler wrote:

Timothy Sipples wrote:

A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield site z196
without a tape drive?

Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 tape drive
was required to load the distribution tapes. What has changed?

Thanks,
Roger Bowler

--Original message--
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do that.
This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1

[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to have
tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]

Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition of the
term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices -- but
without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage market is
extremely competitive and has been for decades.

This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. "But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can even
attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic equipment.
You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?

The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They have
different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know it's
shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe they
wouldn't be mainframes.

But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer function)
storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.

There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, but
for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.

As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, especially
when I'm controversial.

----
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
--

--
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--
John Eells
z/OS Technical Marketing
IBM Poughkeepsie
ee...@us.ibm.com

Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread R.S.

W dniu 2011-10-07 15:10, Lim Ming Liang pisze:

Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
Regards Lim ML

In simple words, a *new* z/OS customer still needs a tape for initial
installation.

Maybe IBM believes that such case - new z/OS customer and no plans to
use tapes is so rare that they deliver/rent some tape drive for free...

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread Lim Ming Liang


Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the 
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .

Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:

Timothy Sipples wrote:

A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield site z196 
without a tape drive?

Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 tape drive 
was required to load the distribution tapes. What has changed?

Thanks,
Roger Bowler



--Original message--
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do that.
This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1


[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to have
tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]


Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition of the
term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices -- but
without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage market is
extremely competitive and has been for decades.


This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. "But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can even
attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic equipment.
You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?


The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They have
different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know it's
shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe they
wouldn't be mainframes.


But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer function)
storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.


There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, but
for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.


As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, especially
when I'm controversial.


----
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
--

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-07 Thread Roger Bowler

Timothy Sipples wrote:
> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank 
> you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield site z196 
without a tape drive?

Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 tape drive 
was required to load the distribution tapes. What has changed?

Thanks,
Roger Bowler

--Original message--
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for 
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do that. 
This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways: 

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1 
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1 

[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank 
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to have 
tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."] 

Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good idea. 
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously designed and 
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition of the 
term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer 
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices -- but 
without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you 
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage market is 
extremely competitive and has been for decades. 

This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. "But I 
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can even 
attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See 
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance 
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear power 
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic equipment. 
You probably could, technically anyway. Should you? 

The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting with 
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They have 
different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing 
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster 
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know it's 
shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those 
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent them. 
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe they 
wouldn't be mainframes. 

But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, go for 
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer function) 
storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks. 

There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is 
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's stipulate 
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting, 
even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't 
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in other 
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, but 
for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes. 

As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, especially 
when I'm controversial. 

----

Timothy Sipples 
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore) 
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com 
-- 

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-06 Thread Andreas F. Geissbuehler

LOL x 1024  !!

One day in 1970 our boss had GIGA news and had to explain 1 giga = 1'024 mega > 
1 million kilobytes... awsome !!

FYI: Canadian National Railways' TRACS upgrade to 8 banks of 2314's, 9 spindles 
each, at most 8 of which could be 'online' and at least 1 had to be 'offlline'. 
We had approx. 100+ '2316 disk packs' at 29 megabytes each. Thus, more than 2GB 
of 'n' GB of data could be 'mounted and ready' and nearly 2GB 'online' at any 
time (great feature for year-ends, SYSGEN's).

Andreas F. Geissbuehler
AFG Consultants Inc.
http://www.afgc-inc.com/

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-05 Thread Timothy Sipples

If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do that.
This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1

[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to have
tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]

Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition of the
term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices -- but
without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage market is
extremely competitive and has been for decades.

This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. "But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can even
attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic equipment.
You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?

The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They have
different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know it's
shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe they
wouldn't be mainframes.

But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer function)
storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.

There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, but
for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.

As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, especially
when I'm controversial.


Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-05 Thread R.S.

W dniu 2011-10-05 09:14, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM pisze:
[...]

That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.

That would do for my data on my 1TB at home, for which I paid over Eur 100,= 2
years ago. What does IBM charge for 1TB these days?

*Fortunately* IBM has a competition in that area. :-)
And I avoid to compare JBOD to enterprise DASD box.
The CPC, price per MIPS - that's what I worry about :-(

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-05 Thread Chase, John

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shane
> 
> LOL.
> I remember going to a Share/Guide presentation years ago by a bod from
> one of Australias larger sites. The talk was how they managed their
> humongous DASD farm that had recently passed the Terabyte frontier.
> 
> Shock and awe from the assembled crowd   :0)

And today I have a 2Tb drive (3.5") on my "Photoshop" PC.  :-)

-jc-

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-05 Thread Roger Bowler

On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:14:48 +0200, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM  
wrote:

>That would do for my data on my 1TB at home, for which I paid over Eur 100,= 2 
>years ago.
>What does IBM charge for 1TB these days?

About 4 Euros (yes, that's 400 times what you paid for your home 1TB!)

Of course, the cabinet is about 400 times the size :-)

Roger Bowler

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-05 Thread Vernooij, CP - SPLXM

"Mike Schwab"  wrote in message 
news:...
> We have about 11 TB on 18 TB of volumes for 11 LPars.
> 
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Shane  wrote:
> > LOL.
> > I remember going to a Share/Guide presentation years ago by a bod from
> > one of Australias larger sites. The talk was how they managed their
> > humongous DASD farm that had recently passed the Terabyte frontier.
> >
> > Shock and awe from the assembled crowd   :0)
> >
> > Shane ...
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:55:17 -0500 Mike Schwab wrote:
> >
> >> That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.
> -- 

That would do for my data on my 1TB at home, for which I paid over Eur 100,= 2 
years ago. What does IBM charge for 1TB these days?

Kees.

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-04 Thread Mike Schwab

We have about 11 TB on 18 TB of volumes for 11 LPars.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Shane  wrote:
> LOL.
> I remember going to a Share/Guide presentation years ago by a bod from
> one of Australias larger sites. The talk was how they managed their
> humongous DASD farm that had recently passed the Terabyte frontier.
>
> Shock and awe from the assembled crowd   :0)
>
> Shane ...
>
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:55:17 -0500 Mike Schwab wrote:
>
>> That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.
-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-04 Thread Shane

LOL.
I remember going to a Share/Guide presentation years ago by a bod from
one of Australias larger sites. The talk was how they managed their
humongous DASD farm that had recently passed the Terabyte frontier.

Shock and awe from the assembled crowd   :0)

Shane ...

On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:55:17 -0500 Mike Schwab wrote:

> That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.
> 
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Edward Jaffe wrote:

> > Anyone running this yet?
> >
> > We have the necessary PTFs installed on our z/OS systems, but
> > haven't upgraded the DS8100 hardware yet.
> >
> > Looks like fun! 8-)

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Re: 1TB EAV Support

2011-10-04 Thread Mike Schwab

That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Edward Jaffe
 wrote:
> Anyone running this yet?
>
> We have the necessary PTFs installed on our z/OS systems, but haven't
> upgraded the DS8100 hardware yet.
>
> Looks like fun! 8-)
>
> --
> Edward E Jaffe
> Phoenix Software International, Inc
> 831 Parkview Drive North
> El Segundo, CA 90245
> 310-338-0400 x318
> edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
> http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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1TB EAV Support

2011-10-04 Thread Edward Jaffe


Anyone running this yet?

We have the necessary PTFs installed on our z/OS systems, but haven't upgraded 
the DS8100 hardware yet.


Looks like fun! 8-)

--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
310-338-0400 x318
edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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