Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Kirk Talman]

"On January 14 1970, DPD rolls out IBM DATA/360, a new program product 
that simulates the functions of the IBM 29 keypunch and IBM 59 verifier to 
enter data from an IBM 2260 display station to an IBM 2311 or 2314 direct 
access storage device, bypassing punched cards;"

we used this w/2270-1 s a few years after this.  product was renamed but 
google can't find the new name.  I remembered ENTRY/370 but not found.

Our greatest danger in life is in permitting the urgent things to crowd 
out the important. - Charles E. Hummel
Efforts and courage are not enough without purpose and direction. - John 
F. Kennedy
The probability of error in a change is inversely proportional to the size 
of the change. - B.I Kahn's First Law
The probability of error in a one character change is approximately 100%. 
If the possibility of collateral damage exists, the probably of error can 
appear to exceed 100%. - corollary to B.I Kahn's First Law





-
The information contained in this communication (including any
attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the
personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom
it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this
communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying,
or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any
action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original
message. Thank you 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <6332589144814230.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu>, on
11/14/2011
   at 09:40 AM, Paul Gilmartin  said:

>Actually, it was never STK during the independent existence of
>Storage Technology Corporation. 

Ah, so! Thanks. I had been told that they changed the name due to a
trademark infringement complaint.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:34:21 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)  wrote:

>You didn't have the STC (later STK) ...
> 
Actually, it was never STK during the independent existence of Storage
Technology Corporation.  The approved branding was StorageTek, and
employees were instructed that "STK" was an NYSE stock ticker symbol,
not to be used to identify the company in either external or external
communications.  Predictably, some StorageTek employes were careless
and misused "STK", even as some IBM employees have carelessly
misused "USS".  I hope that you are fair in pedantry, recognizing that
neither informal use constitutes official approval.

Later, under Sun and Oracle ownership, employees and management
have adopted the casual use with no fear of retribution.

-- gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <4ebd9513.4040...@valley.net>, on 11/11/2011
   at 04:35 PM, Gerhard Postpischil  said:

>The one that didn't handle wrap-around correctly?

After RA the buffer address was left at the beginning instead of the
documented location.

>I fondly recall referring to it as the PIG multiplexer 

Up to and including altering the nameplate to match. ;-)
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Gerhard Postpischil]

On 11/11/2011 3:34 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

Then you should have ordered from GTE :-(


The one that didn't handle wrap-around correctly?


You didn't have the STC (later STK) tape drives where only every other
jumper position was used but the CE documentation didn't mention the
fact?


At one time we had a string of STK drives, but they gave us 
nothing but problems, and were replaced with Memorex hardware 
very quickly.



I vaguely recall you grumbling about the CIG[1] block multiplexor
channel as well.


Only until they fixed the timing (3350 response came before 
channel was able to handle it). Memorex plugged their 
controllers for slower response, thus giving us support for 
3330-1 and 3350 capacity, but without the speed improvements. I 
fondly recall referring to it as the PIG multiplexer 



Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Ed Gould]

 Gerhard,

I agree with you. We had over 1200 3270's locally  attached and never had 
issues with IBM controllers or devices. Where we did have issues was we had an 
OEM "channel" extender. That gavesusno end of problems. At one time I was 
providing the vendor with2 or 3 dumps a day and they were providing me with new 
"load" decks daily(almost). I was getting really mad with the vendor and I was 
getting singed by my management over the issues. I finally said either live 
with the problems or replace it. This was a political bombshell and the vendor 
got upset with me and I indiated it was their hardware and software and it 
wasn't my problem. They tried to point at MVS and I indicated that we 
didn't have problems with IBM hardware. The started to give me more static 
and I just said look either give me a way to get some traces for you or fix 
your problems.

They finally came up with a trace program and I ran it till I was blue in the 
face and was sending them boxes of output for a few weeks and a month later 
they produced a new load deck ad it actually was a lot more stable but still 
not as good as IBMs .

Ed

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <4ebd5c40.8090...@valley.net>, on 11/11/2011
   at 12:32 PM, Gerhard Postpischil  said:

>Only the AT&T and one Telex gave us problems

Then you should have ordered from GTE :-(

>The worst incident I recall was when the C.E. was asked to plug  a
>new 3272 as address 0C0, and he held the board upside down.

You didn't have the STC (later STK) tape drives where only every other
jumper position was used but the CE documentation didn't mention the
fact?

I vaguely recall you grumbling about the CIG[1] block multiplexor
channel as well.

[1] An amusing name because at RCA CIG stood for characters[2]
in gap.

[2] We normally used a different word for the C.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <0A25A0D191144ABB8F0649705ADAA187@DJVBN391>, on 11/11/2011
   at 12:07 AM, Larry Chenevert  said:

>The channel attached control units for those 3270's were notorious
>for  generating interface control checks, which the operating systems
>of the era  (OS/VS1, SVS, and MVS 3.8) were notorious for responding
>by entering  disabled waits, resulting in many unscheduled outages,
>and this seemed to  persist into the early 80's.

My recollection is that the CCH[1] could handle an ICC, although you
might lose the use of the devices.

>stuff one is not supposed to do in CICS

For good reason. You delay other transactions.

>and there was the need for GX20-1878-3.

Why? That's a summary; what information did it have that wasn't in the
regular manuals?

>Later, there were even people who told me and others closely 
>involved "You can not do that using Verify." after I had already
>done it!

Well, at least it hadn't been in the manual for over a decade before
they told you that it couldn't be done. 

[1] Well, for SVS and MVS; I don't have experience on OS/VS1.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Gerhard Postpischil]

On 11/11/2011 1:07 AM, Larry Chenevert wrote:

The channel attached control units for those 3270's were
notorious for generating interface control checks, which the
operating systems of the era (OS/VS1, SVS, and MVS 3.8) were
notorious for responding by entering disabled waits, resulting
in many unscheduled outages, and this seemed to persist into the
early 80's.


Your experience differs from mine. We usually installed new 
hardware over weekends, and gave it a thorough workout before 
acceptance. While we had occasional channel checks, it was only 
during the initial testing. I have no recollection of problems 
(other than normal failing boards) with the controllers (we ran 
IBM 3272s, then 3274s, later lots of ITT and one AT&T units. 
Only the AT&T and one Telex gave us problems). It makes me 
wonder whether your problems might have been due to other 
controllers on the channel (I know at least one installation 
that hooked their 3270s on the same selector as their tape drives!).


The worst incident I recall was when the C.E. was asked to plug 
a new 3272 as address 0C0, and he held the board upside down. We 
had a TP controller on 030 and had lots of interesting errors 
until we made him fix the switches. The other major problem was 
an installation where the C.E. didn't hook up the EPO cable, and 
after he left, the 4341 CPU wouldn't power up.


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of William Donzelli
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:30 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)
> 
> > I happen to have a GX20-1878-3 (October 1978) 3270 
> Information Display
> > System Reference Summary in the top drawer of my desk.  It 
> shows the screen
> > size of a Mod 1 as 12x40, although I never worked with a 
> Mod 1 or ever even
> > saw one, to my knowledge.
> 
> Just about the only place you would be certain to see a model 1 was as
> a console on an S/3 model 15.
> 
> The things are really quite rare today.
> 
> --
> Will

When I first went to work at the City of Ft. Worth, TX in 1976, they had a 
bunch of 3277-1s in various departments. They talked to CICS 1.1.1 on DOS 
(release 34?). 

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets®

9151 Boulevard 26 . N. Richland Hills . TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone . 
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com . www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact 
the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
HealthMarkets® is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company®, Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA 
Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[William Donzelli]

> I happen to have a GX20-1878-3 (October 1978) 3270 Information Display
> System Reference Summary in the top drawer of my desk.  It shows the screen
> size of a Mod 1 as 12x40, although I never worked with a Mod 1 or ever even
> saw one, to my knowledge.

Just about the only place you would be certain to see a model 1 was as
a console on an S/3 model 15.

The things are really quite rare today.

--
Will

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Larry Chenevert]

Thanks for the link, Chris.

I happen to have a GX20-1878-3 (October 1978) 3270 Information Display 
System Reference Summary in the top drawer of my desk.  It shows the screen 
size of a Mod 1 as 12x40, although I never worked with a Mod 1 or ever even 
saw one, to my knowledge.


My first 3270 data stream experience was with a Mod 2 in 1976.  I did 
something similar to the classic "Hello World" application, but it was 
acctually a calculator that supported two operands and the operators +-*/. 
By sometime in 1977, we had a homegrown 3270 based transaction processor 
affectionately called "TP" which was similar in overall function to CICS (of 
that era), but nowhere near comparable to CICS as far as features.


The channel attached control units for those 3270's were notorious for 
generating interface control checks, which the operating systems of the era 
(OS/VS1, SVS, and MVS 3.8) were notorious for responding by entering 
disabled waits, resulting in many unscheduled outages, and this seemed to 
persist into the early 80's.


The last time I used the GX20-1878-3 was probably 1989-1991 when I was asked 
to see if I could write a number of user exits to a  product called Verify 
(then developed and owned by Online Software International -- later acquired 
by CA, and I believe retired, although an incarnation of it for VTAM might 
still exist), which was an early regression tester for CICS.  Verify had the 
ability to record input 3270 data streams and output 3270 data streams from 
a series of transactions, and "rerun" them later, presumably after system 
changes were made.  There was a compare function to see if the same output 
resulted before and after the changes -- regression testing.  We didn't use 
it that way, though. . .


...The task was to drive CICS transactions with input data from flat files 
(QSAM), record the output in flat files, and respond with some level of 
intelligence to whatever output from the transaction was.  This required a 
lot of dynamic file allocation and OPEN, GET, PUT, and CLOSE  -- stuff one 
is not supposed to do in CICS-- and precise 3270 data stream interpretation 
and manipulation, and there was the need for GX20-1878-3.  A couple of big 
SW vendors were approached about this and passed on the opportunity before I 
was contacted.  Later, there were even people who told me and others closely 
involved "You can not do that using Verify." after I had already done it!


Not really relevant, but the application requiring the Verify work was a 
very industry-specific accounting application (something like mining --  
multiple landowners, etc.) that had been developed with the help of one of 
the big accounting firms.  The customer needed to migrate data from several 
disparate systems to their new application which was CICS/DB2 based, so this 
creation served to:
1) stress test the new infrastructure (and stress the infrastructure it did, 
with a near zero user think time),

2) test the new application code, and ...
3) facilitate the data migration from the older disparate systems to the new 
one.



Larry Chenevert
- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Mason" 

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:41 PM
Subject: 3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)



To all actually interested in 3270 pre-history

And the original IBM 3270 screen size was Model 1, 12 lines by 40 
characters. Model 2 (24 * 80) didn't come along until later.


It was my possibly faulty recollection that just about all of the first 
generation of 3270 equipment was announced - and, I'm going to guess, 
could be delivered - in one go.


By resort to comprehensive Googling, it is possible to avoid dubious 
speculation - because I found the "smoking gun" - and I also found the 
page which is indeed phrased in such a way that it could be 
misunderstood.[1]


By entry of the following:

history 3270 IBM

the 26th "hit" (3rd page) is the following manual very kindly retained for 
us by "bitsavers":


"An Introduction to the IBM 3270 Information Display System", GA27-2739-1, 
Second Edition (May 1971)


http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/GA27-2739-1_An_Introduction_to_the_IBM_3270_Information_Display_System_May71.pdf

or the 4th item on the following page:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/

I draw your attention in particular to the "-1" at the end of the "form 
number". Unfortunately this isn't "-0" but literally the next best 
thing.[2] You will note the following in the "Preface":




. 3277 Display Station, Models 1 and 2



and the fact there are *no* revision bars. That means that this bulleted 
list item was the same in the previous edition of the manual, the "-0", 
and that, because of the date and, unlike another manual I unearthed 
(GA23-0060-0, November 1980), this is not some reis

3270 archaeology (Was: TSO SCREENSIZE)

[Chris Mason]

To all actually interested in 3270 pre-history

> And the original IBM 3270 screen size was Model 1, 12 lines by 40 characters. 
> Model 2 (24 * 80) didn't come along until later.

It was my possibly faulty recollection that just about all of the first 
generation of 3270 equipment was announced - and, I'm going to guess, could be 
delivered - in one go.

By resort to comprehensive Googling, it is possible to avoid dubious 
speculation - because I found the "smoking gun" - and I also found the page 
which is indeed phrased in such a way that it could be misunderstood.[1]

By entry of the following:

history 3270 IBM

the 26th "hit" (3rd page) is the following manual very kindly retained for us 
by "bitsavers":

"An Introduction to the IBM 3270 Information Display System", GA27-2739-1, 
Second Edition (May 1971)

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/GA27-2739-1_An_Introduction_to_the_IBM_3270_Information_Display_System_May71.pdf

or the 4th item on the following page:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/

I draw your attention in particular to the "-1" at the end of the "form 
number". Unfortunately this isn't "-0" but literally the next best thing.[2] 
You will note the following in the "Preface":



• 3277 Display Station, Models 1 and 2



and the fact there are *no* revision bars. That means that this bulleted list 
item was the same in the previous edition of the manual, the "-0", and that, 
because of the date and, unlike another manual I unearthed (GA23-0060-0, 
November 1980), this is not some reissue of an earlier manual. Therefore the 
Model 1 and the Model 2 were described initially at the same time and I am 
going to assume they were announced at the same time, approximately the date of 
this manual.

-

[1] The 5th "hit":

http://www.hob-techtalk.com/2008/09/12/3270-a-brief-history



The first display had a very small screen displaying only 12 rows with 40 
characters.



A bit of a sort-of "Chinese whisper" problem here. I think this "first" need 
not *mean* chronologically although that is implied.

[2] Fortunately I've just finished reading "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" and 
so I have been tuning my deductive reasoning! I don't believe I had actually 
read the book before but I - tried to - follow carefully the 7-episode BBC 
series 30 odd years ago. I don't believe the film can possibly do justice to 
the complexities or the sequencing of the revelations.

Another interesting point is that the BBC series included a key scene near the 
end which is not explicit in the book. I wonder what the film will do ...

-

Chris Mason

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:15:25 -0600, Mike Schwab  wrote:

> ...
>
>And the original IBM 3270 screen size was Model 1, 12 lines by 40
>characters.  Model 2 (24 * 80) didn't come along until later.
>
>--
>Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html