Re: Op codes removed from z/10
It could be as simple as the current systems are so fast that maintaining the microcode and the microcode space is no longer cost effective. Right on target. These were never instructions intended for use other than by the operating system, and the operating system no longer needed them (due to the speed situation) and (for example) it was not cost-effective to enhance them for z/Architecture. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
And let's not forget to mention why these microcode assists were added to MVS in the first place -- to make a version of MVS (MVS/SE, MVS/SP, etc.) that would not run on clones like Amdahl. Now that there are effectively no more clones IBM can simply remove them? --- On Fri, 6/27/08, Peter Relson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Peter Relson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Op codes removed from z/10 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 5:25 AM It could be as simple as the current systems are so fast that maintaining the microcode and the microcode space is no longer cost effective. Right on target. These were never instructions intended for use other than by the operating system, and the operating system no longer needed them (due to the speed situation) and (for example) it was not cost-effective to enhance them for z/Architecture. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU wrote on 06/27/2008 10:09:21 AM: And let's not forget to mention why these microcode assists were added to MVS in the first place -- to make a version of MVS (MVS/SE, MVS/SP, etc.) that would not run on clones like Amdahl. Now that there are effectively no more clones IBM can simply remove them? --- On Fri, 6/27/08, Peter Relson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Peter Relson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Op codes removed from z/10 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 5:25 AM It could be as simple as the current systems are so fast that maintaining the microcode and the microcode space is no longer cost effective. Right on target. These were never instructions intended for use other than by the operating system, and the operating system no longer needed them (due to the speed situation) and (for example) it was not cost-effective to enhance them for z/Architecture. Military secrets are the most fleeting of all. -- Spock, The Enterprise Incident, stardate 5027.4, Episode 59 The second most fleeting might be the marketing advantage provided by microcode assists. What one vendor can do in microcode, another usually can replicate in short order. So any such advantage from these assists would have run its course a few decades ago. On horizontally microcoded machines, it was possible to obtain a performance benefit in some cases by providing microcode which could implement a frequently used code sequence faster by using some hardware parallelism that was not available to the general instruction set. That is not the case on IBM processors of the past decade, and in fact using the lock assists had become slower than not using them. Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Mulder) writes: Military secrets are the most fleeting of all. -- Spock, The Enterprise Incident, stardate 5027.4, Episode 59 The second most fleeting might be the marketing advantage provided by microcode assists. What one vendor can do in microcode, another usually can replicate in short order. So any such advantage from these assists would have run its course a few decades ago. On horizontally microcoded machines, it was possible to obtain a performance benefit in some cases by providing microcode which could implement a frequently used code sequence faster by using some hardware parallelism that was not available to the general instruction set. That is not the case on IBM processors of the past decade, and in fact using the lock assists had become slower than not using them. there were some comments at the time that the mvs/se microcode assists were part of the motivation for amdahl's macrocode ... allowing them to track various fluctuations in hardware architecture (much simpler than it took to do the original by using a slight variation on 370 assembler) ... w/o having to resort to the difficulty and complexity of low-level horizontal microcoding. this then contributed to amdahl being able to relatively easily implement hypervisor support ... much easier than it took to create pr/sm response on the 3090. the original (vm/370) microcode assists were in two forms ... those things that implement the virtual machine rules for execution of supervisor instructions ... avoiding the interrupt and context switch overhead interrupting into the vm370 supervisor. the other big benefit was on the vertical microcode machines ... initially 138/148 ... where there as an avg. of 10 microcode instructions executed for every 370 instruction ... and vm370 kernel pathlengths was dropped into microcode on nearly a 1-for-1 instruction basis (obtaining a 10:1 performance improvement). old post on selecting the parts of vm370 kernel that were moved into the kernel (criteria was that 148 had 6k bytes of available microcode space ... so the objective was to select the highest used 6k bytes of vm370 kernel instructions): http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#21 370 ECPS VM microcode assit the issue with the high-end horizontal microcode machines was that various optimizations by the time of 3033 achieved nearly 1:1 parity between horizontal microcode and 370 instructions (370 instruction execution had gotten so efficient that there was nearly no difference between implementing the function in 370 instructions vis-a-vis implementing in microcode) ... aka for the ECPS class of things done originally for virgil/tully (138/148) would see no difference on 3033 (and later horizontal microcode) machines. that mostly left doing things in microcode/(macrocode) that could avoid overhead if implemented in straight machine instructions (like adding virtual machine rules to the execution of supervisor state instruction execution) ... aka things like hypervisor and pr/sm. misc. past posts mentioning macrocode: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#44 Linux paging http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#48 Linux paging http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#9 Mainframe System Programmer/Administrator market demand? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#56 Wild hardware idea http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#59 Misuse of word microcode http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#60 Misuse of word microcode http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005h.html#24 Description of a new old-fashioned programming language http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#14 Multicores http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#29 Documentation for the New Instructions for the z9 Processor http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005u.html#40 POWER6 on zSeries? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005u.html#43 POWER6 on zSeries? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005u.html#48 POWER6 on zSeries? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006b.html#38 blast from the past ... macrocode http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006c.html#7 IBM 610 workstation computer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006c.html#9 Mainframe Jobs Going Away http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006c.html#24 Harvard Vs Von Neumann architecture http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006c.html#40 IBM 610 workstation computer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#15 About TLB in lower-level caches http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006h.html#30 The Pankian Metaphor http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006j.html#32 Code density and performance? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006j.html#35 Code density and performance? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006m.html#39 Using different storage key's http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006p.html#42 old hypervisor email http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006t.html#14 32 or even 64 registers for x86-64? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#33 Assembler question
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
---snip-- MVS use of the SVC assist was removed in MVS/ESA SP3.1.0 MVS use of the lock assists was removed in OS/390 2.10. --unsnip- At the risk of a Stupid Question, why ?? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:25 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Op codes removed from z/10 ---snip-- MVS use of the SVC assist was removed in MVS/ESA SP3.1.0 MVS use of the lock assists was removed in OS/390 2.10. --unsnip- At the risk of a Stupid Question, why ?? I was curious about that too. It could be as simple as the current systems are so fast that maintaining the microcode and the microcode space is no longer cost effective. From what I gather, things which can be done using normal instructions are put into the microcode only when the speed up makes it worth while. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 06/25/2008 at 10:05 AM, John P. Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: These instructions comprised a part of the MVS Extended Facility, which provided performance improvements back in the days of MVS/XA and MVS/SP. As I recall, even MVS/SE had support for some of them. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
You are correct. I had forgotten about MVS/SE. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Op codes removed from z/10 In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 06/25/2008 at 10:05 AM, John P. Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: These instructions comprised a part of the MVS Extended Facility, which provided performance improvements back in the days of MVS/XA and MVS/SP. As I recall, even MVS/SE had support for some of them. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Op codes removed from z/10
Does anyone know what these opcodes are? They are no longer supported on the z/10, but I can't find them in the Reference Summary E503 E504 E505 E506 E507 Stephen Bielskie Assistant Vice President IT - z/OS Base Products - Princeton - KIUT57 IT - Mainframe Hardware - Princeton - KIUT54 CREDIT SUISSE Princeton, NJ Telephone : (609) 243-0711 Email :[EMAIL PROTECTED] == Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
E503SVC Assist E504Obtain Local Lock E505Release Local Lock E506Obtain CMS Lock E507Release CMS Lock These instructions comprised a part of the MVS Extended Facility, which provided performance improvements back in the days of MVS/XA and MVS/SP. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bielskie, Stephen Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Op codes removed from z/10 Does anyone know what these opcodes are? They are no longer supported on the z/10, but I can't find them in the Reference Summary E503 E504 E505 E506 E507 Cross-posted to IBM-Main Stephen Bielskie Assistant Vice President IT - z/OS Base Products - Princeton - KIUT57 IT - Mainframe Hardware - Princeton - KIUT54 CREDIT SUISSE Princeton, NJ Telephone : (609) 243-0711 Email :[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
Thx -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John P. Baker Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:05 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Op codes removed from z/10 E503SVC Assist E504Obtain Local Lock E505Release Local Lock E506Obtain CMS Lock E507Release CMS Lock These instructions comprised a part of the MVS Extended Facility, which provided performance improvements back in the days of MVS/XA and MVS/SP. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bielskie, Stephen Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Op codes removed from z/10 Does anyone know what these opcodes are? They are no longer supported on the z/10, but I can't find them in the Reference Summary E503 E504 E505 E506 E507 Cross-posted to IBM-Main Stephen Bielskie Assistant Vice President IT - z/OS Base Products - Princeton - KIUT57 IT - Mainframe Hardware - Princeton - KIUT54 CREDIT SUISSE Princeton, NJ Telephone : (609) 243-0711 Email :[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html == Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
The were a number of linkage assist instructions that were never publicly by IBM documented to my knowledge. I did find a brief overview at the following web site: http://www.bixoft.com/english/opcde5.htm Wayne Driscoll Product Developer NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bielskie, Stephen Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:52 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Op codes removed from z/10 Does anyone know what these opcodes are? They are no longer supported on the z/10, but I can't find them in the Reference Summary E503 E504 E505 E506 E507 Stephen Bielskie Assistant Vice President IT - z/OS Base Products - Princeton - KIUT57 IT - Mainframe Hardware - Princeton - KIUT54 CREDIT SUISSE Princeton, NJ Telephone : (609) 243-0711 Email :[EMAIL PROTECTED] == Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
In a message dated 6/25/2008 9:17:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ... a number of linkage assist instructions that were never publicly by IBM documented to my knowledge. IBM documented the five mentioned by the OP in an extremely thin generally available publication in ca. 1983 or 1984 that was titled something like S/370/XA Processor Assist. I believe that this book was also the first public documentation on the (at that time) new Control Register bit that governs Low Address Protection. I had a copy of the book for a decade or two. I also vaguely recall that another pair of assist instructions were to set and remove an FRR. Bill Fairchild Rocket Software **Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
They were documented in a separate IBM publication on the MVS Extended Facility. I have a copy if anyone is interested. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Driscoll Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:17 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Op codes removed from z/10 The were a number of linkage assist instructions that were never publicly by IBM documented to my knowledge. I did find a brief overview at the following web site: http://www.bixoft.com/english/opcde5.htm Wayne Driscoll Product Developer NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
-snip-- They were documented in a separate IBM publication on the MVS Extended Facility. I have a copy if anyone is interested. unsnip If that's an electronic copy, I'd be VERY interested. Or you can contact me off-list.. Rick -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:09:08 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote: -snip-- They were documented in a separate IBM publication on the MVS Extended Facility. I have a copy if anyone is interested. unsnip If that's an electronic copy, I'd be VERY interested. Or you can contact me off-list.. There is this: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/370/SA22-7092-0_MVSAssists.pdf -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
Oops - appears to be slashIBM-MAIN-dotted! -Mark Vitale There is this: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/370/SA22-7092-0_MVS Assists.pdf -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU wrote on 06/25/2008 10:05:06 AM: E503 SVC Assist E504 Obtain Local Lock E505 Release Local Lock E506 Obtain CMS Lock E507 Release CMS Lock These instructions comprised a part of the MVS Extended Facility, which provided performance improvements back in the days of MVS/XA and MVS/SP. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bielskie, Stephen Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Op codes removed from z/10 Does anyone know what these opcodes are? They are no longer supported on the z/10, but I can't find them in the Reference Summary E503 E504 E505 E506 E507 MVS use of the SVC assist was removed in MVS/ESA SP3.1.0 MVS use of the lock assists was removed in OS/390 2.10. Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Op codes removed from z/10
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:16:53 -0500, Tom Marchant m42tom- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... There is this: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/370/SA22-7092-0_MVSAssists.pdf SA22-7092-0 also documents a sixth instruction, ADD FRR (B242). All of those six instructions actually pre-dated XA. I still have a (paper) copy of GA22- 7079-0 IBM System/370 Assists for MVS dated 1981, that includes descriptions of those six instruction and also FIX PAGE (E502) and six tracing instructions in the range E508 to E50D. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
