Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-07 Thread Roger Bowler
Timothy Sipples wrote:
 it's impossible to configure a z114 at capacity setting A00 without
 either one IFL or one ICF -- and you probably know better. IBM's starting
 mainframe configuration is either a single IFL model or a capacity setting 
 A01 model. Yes, it's one of those two (not the ICF-only model). No, IBM 
 didn't say which of those two configurations starts at under $75,000 (U.S. 
 pricing), but I assure you it's one of those two. 

Hmm. Sounds awfully like you don't know the answer either. I'm asking for 
facts, not guesses.

I'll repeat the question: what is the exact configuration of the sub-$75,000 
z114?

How many CPs, how many IFLs, how much memory, how many FICON channels, and how 
many OSA cards are included in this price? It surely can't be that hard to 
answer.

Regards,
Roger Bowler



Original message---
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
From: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com (Timothy Sipples)
Date: 5 Oct 2011 23:59:45 -0700
Local: Thurs, Oct 6 2011 8:59 am 
Subject: Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

I have to respond to one point Roger Bowler made (again). 

Roger, it's impossible to configure a z114 at capacity setting A00 without 
either one IFL or one ICF -- and you probably know better. IBM's starting 
mainframe configuration is either a single IFL model or a capacity setting 
A01 model. Yes, it's one of those two (not the ICF-only model). No, IBM 
didn't say which of those two configurations starts at under $75,000 (U.S. 
pricing), but I assure you it's one of those two. (Hint: Joe Clabby narrows 
it down.) Just as IBM also didn't say which z890 configuration started at 
under $100,000 when that model was announced, but there were only the same 
two starting configurations then, too. 


Your repeating your false assertion (a $75K mainframe without 
customer-usable CPU capacity) in multiple forums doesn't make your 
assertion any more correct. (LinkedIn, too? Seriously?) Your assertion is 
just flat out false and disparaging. As I mentioned elsewhere, the only 
people upset that IBM has reduced starting prices for its z114 mainframes 
by 25% (fact!) are IBM's competitors. Everyone else is thrilled. And the 
only person who doubts this earth is round is you. 


If you've got hard evidence that IBM doesn't know its own pricing, put up. 
If you don't, it's long past time you ceased. 


(Sorry for that digression, folks.) 


---­-
 
Timothy Sipples 
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore) 
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com 
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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-06 Thread Timothy Sipples
I have to respond to one point Roger Bowler made (again).

Roger, it's impossible to configure a z114 at capacity setting A00 without
either one IFL or one ICF -- and you probably know better. IBM's starting
mainframe configuration is either a single IFL model or a capacity setting
A01 model. Yes, it's one of those two (not the ICF-only model). No, IBM
didn't say which of those two configurations starts at under $75,000 (U.S.
pricing), but I assure you it's one of those two. (Hint: Joe Clabby narrows
it down.) Just as IBM also didn't say which z890 configuration started at
under $100,000 when that model was announced, but there were only the same
two starting configurations then, too.

Your repeating your false assertion (a $75K mainframe without
customer-usable CPU capacity) in multiple forums doesn't make your
assertion any more correct. (LinkedIn, too? Seriously?) Your assertion is
just flat out false and disparaging. As I mentioned elsewhere, the only
people upset that IBM has reduced starting prices for its z114 mainframes
by 25% (fact!) are IBM's competitors. Everyone else is thrilled. And the
only person who doubts this earth is round is you.

If you've got hard evidence that IBM doesn't know its own pricing, put up.
If you don't, it's long past time you ceased.

(Sorry for that digression, folks.)


Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-06 Thread Timothy Sipples
Mainframe economics continue to improve, and it's important to take
advantage of that if you can, when you can.

With respect to the z10 BC and its IFLs, let's consider a
back-of-the-envelope exercise for WebSphere Application Server workloads.
I'm going to use IBM's LSPR PCI metric as a proxy for relative performance.
(It's a pretty good one.) If you have three IFLs (only), that's the rough
equivalent of a Z03 capacity setting, which has a PCI of 1777. If WebSphere
Application Server is configured in such a way to be capable of running on
all three IFLs, you would need to license 360 Processor Value Units (PVUs)
worth of WebSphere (120 PVUs per z10 IFL). Thus you get about 4.94 PCIs per
PVU -- that's a metric of software license efficiency, similar to
kilometers per gallon.

Now, let's re-run this calculation for a z114. Three IFLs on that machine
would be roughly equivalent to a PCI of 2026. Also, z114 IFLs require only
100 PVUs each. So, taking 2026 and dividing by 300, you get about 6.75.
That's an almost 37% improvement in performance per dollar of software
licensing! That's huge.

That doesn't count the performance improvements made in newer software
releases, which are also huge. Even when you keep the version levels the
same, if you can get to the latest JVM (in WAS 8) you'll find some
exploitation of instructions found only in z196/z114. So I think it's fair
to say that 37% improvement is more like a floor and less like a ceiling in
this example. And this is just looking at the IBM software licensing, which
is just a piece of the financial picture -- and probably not the most
significant piece here. But it is an interesting piece.

Also, in general, data centers aren't getting less full nor is expanding
them (or building new ones) getting any cheaper.


Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-06 Thread Jim Marshall
How many Virtual Linux Servers per IFLHm with the usual answer it 
it depends.  Today I am running one z9BC IFL and have up 55+ Virtual Linux 
Servers.  That is, 3 LPARS (BUILD, TEST,   Prod).  As to what they do is more 
relevant than the quantity.   Have 2 production DB2 LUW servers, 2 production 
Oracles, 2 Production Websphere Application Servers, Tivoli TAMS  WebSeal, and 
a number of Virtual Firewalls to implement Defense in Depth. Now we have 
duplicated those is the TEST/UAT LPAR and then we have to build all of it. 

In general when we brought up zLinux back in 2004-5 or so, we found if you had 
z/OS trained people managing things with not Linux experience, it all got built 
very inefficiently. Everytime performance got bad they would add memory to 
improve things and it just made it worse. Then there was the z/VM aspect where 
historically speaking it was 2 different cultures.  One needed to tune z/VM 
first and then move down to the Linux machines.

So again, to me, it depends on what you are asking these Virtual Linux servers 
to do would be important in understanding how many one can usually run in an 
IFL.  

jim

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-05 Thread Mike Shorkend
/jumping in
At the time it was definitely the right move. For those who have not seen my 
presentation - at the time we had no other option but to use zLinux as we had 
no room at our DR site for any more blade type servers.
Our current issue is that the ratio of zLinux guests per IFL is much lower than 
what was expected. THis has an affect on the TCO/TCA of the whole project. Add 
to that the challenges that we have zLinux(lack of supported third party 
solutions, internal politics, general virtualization issues) and we are taking 
a hard look at the platform. 

Sheldon asked the question because we want to know if the ratio we have is 
comparable to other sites. 

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-05 Thread Vernooij, CP - SPLXM
Mike Shorkend m...@shorkend.com wrote in message
news:2726868143899905.wa.mikeshorkend@bama.ua.edu...
 /jumping in
 At the time it was definitely the right move. For those who have not
seen my presentation - at the time we had no other option but to use
zLinux as we had no room at our DR site for any more blade type servers.
 Our current issue is that the ratio of zLinux guests per IFL is much
lower than what was expected. THis has an affect on the TCO/TCA of the
whole project. Add to that the challenges that we have zLinux(lack of
supported third party solutions, internal politics, general
virtualization issues) and we are taking a hard look at the platform. 

Out of curiosity: how low is 'much lower'?

Kees.


 
 Sheldon asked the question because we want to know if the ratio we
have is comparable to other sites. 
 
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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-05 Thread Mike Shorkend
A very rough estimate of about 30%.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM kees.verno...@klm.com
 wrote:

 Mike Shorkend m...@shorkend.com wrote in message
 news:2726868143899905.wa.mikeshorkend@bama.ua.edu...
  /jumping in
  At the time it was definitely the right move. For those who have not
 seen my presentation - at the time we had no other option but to use
 zLinux as we had no room at our DR site for any more blade type servers.
  Our current issue is that the ratio of zLinux guests per IFL is much
 lower than what was expected. THis has an affect on the TCO/TCA of the
 whole project. Add to that the challenges that we have zLinux(lack of
 supported third party solutions, internal politics, general
 virtualization issues) and we are taking a hard look at the platform.

 Out of curiosity: how low is 'much lower'?

 Kees.


 
  Sheldon asked the question because we want to know if the ratio we
 have is comparable to other sites.
 
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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-05 Thread Roger Bowler
Mike Shorkend m...@shorkend.com wrote:
 Our current issue is that the ratio of zLinux guests per IFL is much
 lower than what was expected.

Vernooij, CP - SPLXM kees.verno...@klm.com wrote:
 Out of curiosity: how low is 'much lower'?

Mike Shorkend mike.shork...@gmail.com wrote:
A very rough estimate of about 30%.

Mike,

IBM marketing materials claim that one IFL can support 30 distributed servers 
or more
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/hardware/zenterprise/z114.html

You say your finding was 30% lower than expected. So does that mean you 
actually found you could support about 21 servers per IFL?

Regards,
Roger Bowler
Hercules the people's mainframe

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-05 Thread Vernooij, CP - SPLXM
30% of what you estimated or 30% lower than you estimated?
Can you give figures? I understood one could run 'thousands' of guests.

Kees.


Mike Shorkend mike.shork...@gmail.com wrote in message
news:CAK9P_5QbFqXqk6Ngp8=U1+BBmdz=pmadursfgmn2rs_sp3a...@mail.gmail.com
...
 A very rough estimate of about 30%.
 
 On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM
kees.verno...@klm.com
  wrote:
 
  Mike Shorkend m...@shorkend.com wrote in message
  news:2726868143899905.wa.mikeshorkend@bama.ua.edu...
   /jumping in
   At the time it was definitely the right move. For those who have
not
  seen my presentation - at the time we had no other option but to use
  zLinux as we had no room at our DR site for any more blade type
servers.
   Our current issue is that the ratio of zLinux guests per IFL is
much
  lower than what was expected. THis has an affect on the TCO/TCA of
the
  whole project. Add to that the challenges that we have zLinux(lack
of
  supported third party solutions, internal politics, general
  virtualization issues) and we are taking a hard look at the
platform.
 
  Out of curiosity: how low is 'much lower'?
 
  Kees.
 
 
  
   Sheldon asked the question because we want to know if the ratio we
  have is comparable to other sites.
  
  
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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-05 Thread Roger Bowler
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 15:42:16 +0200, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM kees.verno...@klm.com 
wrote:

30% of what you estimated or 30% lower than you estimated?
Can you give figures? I understood one could run 'thousands' of guests.

Here is what IBM marketing have been claiming:

IBM calculates that workloads from as many as 300 competitive servers can be 
consolidated onto a single z114 
- 
http://dancingdinosaur.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/new-ibm-z114-reduces-mainframe-tca/

'We can take 1,500 PC class servers and collapse them all in one mainframe to 
offer 85 percent less in energy cost and 85 percent less floor space,' said Jim 
Porell, IBM Distinguished Engineer with the company's Systems and Technology 
Group 
- http://gcn.com/articles/2008/02/27/ibm-unveils-z10-mainframe.aspx

consolidate an average of 30 distributed servers or more on a single core, or 
300 in a single footprint, delivering a virtual Linux server for under $1.45 
day 
- http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/hardware/zenterprise/z114.html 

They also claim you can get a z114 entry level configuration for under 
$75,000. I have been trying to pin them down on what *exactly* constitutes the 
entry level configuration, but they seem to be rather coy about the details. 
I suspect it is a model A00 with no FICON, no OSA cards, and no DASD.

Roger Bowler
Hercules the people's mainframe

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-05 Thread Mike Shorkend
Yes, sure you can run thousands of guests on one IFL. But running what?

I really can't go into specifics but lets say that we are running less than
20 servers per z10 BC IFL(a mix of production and test). These are mainly
WAS and a some  Oracles.
As for the question asked about 30% less of what.let me just say that
instead of our prediction of running a specific mix of workload on 2 IFLs,
in reality it needs 3 IFLs




On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Roger Bowler ibm-m...@snacons.com wrote:

 On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 15:42:16 +0200, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM 
 kees.verno...@klm.com wrote:

 30% of what you estimated or 30% lower than you estimated?
 Can you give figures? I understood one could run 'thousands' of guests.

 Here is what IBM marketing have been claiming:

 IBM calculates that workloads from as many as 300 competitive servers can
 be consolidated onto a single z114
 -
 http://dancingdinosaur.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/new-ibm-z114-reduces-mainframe-tca/

 'We can take 1,500 PC class servers and collapse them all in one mainframe
 to offer 85 percent less in energy cost and 85 percent less floor space,'
 said Jim Porell, IBM Distinguished Engineer with the company's Systems and
 Technology Group
 - http://gcn.com/articles/2008/02/27/ibm-unveils-z10-mainframe.aspx

 consolidate an average of 30 distributed servers or more on a single core,
 or 300 in a single footprint, delivering a virtual Linux server for under
 $1.45 day
 - http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/hardware/zenterprise/z114.html

 They also claim you can get a z114 entry level configuration for under
 $75,000. I have been trying to pin them down on what *exactly* constitutes
 the entry level configuration, but they seem to be rather coy about the
 details. I suspect it is a model A00 with no FICON, no OSA cards, and no
 DASD.

 Roger Bowler
 Hercules the people's mainframe

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-04 Thread Sheldon Davis
Hi

Does anyone have a method of comparing x86 Linux vs IFL Linux? (Performance and 
cost)

Thanks

Sheldon Davis

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-04 Thread Itschak Mugzach
I believe the problem is not with Linux kernel itself, but what you run
under...

ITschak

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Sheldon Davis sda...@isracard.co.il wrote:

 Hi

 Does anyone have a method of comparing x86 Linux vs IFL Linux? (Performance
 and cost)

 Thanks

 Sheldon Davis

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-04 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
In 9744671434806595.wa.sdavisisracard.co...@alabamamaps.ua.edu, on
10/04/2011
   at 02:19 AM, Sheldon Davis sda...@isracard.co.il said:

Does anyone have a method of comparing x86 Linux vs IFL Linux?
(Performance and cost)

First define your workload; the results will vary depending on whether
you are CPU bound or I/O bound. The only accurate method is to
construct a benchmark reflecting what you will actually be doing and
then run it on both x and z.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-04 Thread Tom Marchant
On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:25:19 -0600, Mark Post wrote:

As always, makes me wonder what else they got wrong.

Like this:
quote
IBM measures use of its mainframe systems in millions of instructions per 
second (MIPS).
/quote

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-04 Thread Staller, Allan
There have been several published studies showing that using a
zero-based comparison, the z/Linux solution is cheaper.
Check the archives. At least one person has stated this formally and
offered his analysis to others. 
Unfortunately, I have misplaced my copy and can't tell you where the
break even point is.

Mark Post is a also very good source.

HTH,

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-04 Thread Mark Post
 On 10/4/2011 at 03:19 AM, Sheldon Davis sda...@isracard.co.il wrote: 
 Hi
 
 Does anyone have a method of comparing x86 Linux vs IFL Linux? (Performance 
 and cost)

Interesting question coming from someone at Isracard.  Mike Shorkend has given 
a number of presentations at SHARE about Isracard's experiences running Linux 
on System z.  Is there now some question as to whether it was the right move?  
(I think so, but your perspective might be interesting as well.)


Mark Post

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ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-03 Thread Ed Gould
Linux on Mainframes - an IBM update
By Dan Kusnetzky | October 3, 2011, 3:03am PDT
Summary: Many Linux proponents appear to equate Linux with the use of industry 
standard X86 systems. IBM demonstrated that its Mainframes are a growing 
portion of the market.
IBM presented an update on Linux on its mainframe line of computers. It was 
refreshing to learn about the success Linux has been having outside of the 
realm of industry standard X86-based systems. Here’s a quick summary of the 
session.
Growth of Linux on IBM System Z
The shipments of IBM’s Integrated Facility for Linux (IFL) increased 76% 
between the second quarter of 2010 and the second quarter of 2011.
IBM measures use of its mainframe systems in millions of instructions per 
second (MIPS). Linux installations consumed 26% more MIPS between the second 
quarter of 2010 and the second quarter of 2011. Nineteen percent of the IBM 
System Z MIPS are deployed to support Linux as of the end of the second quarter.
If we look at the overall installed base, 34% of IBM’s System Z customers have 
installed the Linux facility. This includes 63 of the top 100.
At this point, more than 3,000 Linux applications are available on this 
platform.
z/VM 6.2
IBM’s virtual machine facility has a very long track record of supporting 
production workloads. The major improvements offered by version 6.2 was support 
of clustering for up to four z/VM instances hosted on mainframe logical 
partitions (LPARs). These LPARs can be hosted on a single machine or 
distributed over several machines. Linux guest environments can be relocated 
from one LPAR to another without disruption of the workloads being supported.
Variable pricing model
IBM also launched an interesting pricing model for Linux on IBM System Z that 
mimics the pricing used in the wireless telephone market. Customers basically 
subscribe to a specific computing capacity and pay a monthly fee for its use. 
If they use more than the capacity that they’ve subscribe to, they would incur 
variable fees based upon actual usage. The customer may change the capacity 
subscription to increase or lower the usage entitlement.
It appears that this pricing model is intended to make it possible for 
customers or service providers to operate using a private cloud model.
Snapshot analysis
A common assumption I’ve observed when speaking to those using Linux or 
thinking about a Linux deployment is that industry standard systems are always 
the best choice of physical platform. The growth in IBM’s System Z Linux 
deployments demonstrates that the mainframe may be a strong option for some 
workloads.
Mainframe deployments were seen to offer lower cost of ownership in past 
studies due to the powerful management and virtualization tools the operating 
environment supported. It appears that IBM has been working hard to improve the 
performance of its systems in this area.
Organizations would be wise to consider the mainframe option when designing 
their Linux-oriented Web, virtual or cloud computing environments.

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Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

2011-10-03 Thread Mark Post
It's Linux, not LINUX.  And it's not IBM Linux, it's Linux for IBM's System z.  
IBM doesn't have their own Linux distribution.

It would have been nice if Kusnetzky got IBM's branding right. As always, makes 
me wonder what else they got wrong.


Mark Post

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