Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Farley, Peter x23353]

By experimentation, V5.2 cannot perform INITCHECK at any OPT level even with 
REGION=1536M (the largest  region I am allowed to use here) for very large 
programs (30K+ lines actual code).  It does succeed at OPT(1) and OPT(2) for 
more reasonably-sized programs (less than 6K lines) with REGION=350M.

I will check out those videos, thanks.

As for IBM's "thinking" on this subject, maybe PFCSK syndrome?  Insufficient 
real-world experience?

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bill Woodger
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 12:33 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with 
OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

"Actually, Tom Ross in his migration presentation recommends this procedure:..."


Yes, unfortunately that was May 2016, and INITCHECK appeared in September 2016.

The reference I was making was to the V6.1 Migration Guide. The advice seems 
not to be in the MG for V5.2, although INITCHECK is there.

With V6.1, the compiler "back end" uses 64-bit addressing, allowing larger 
programs (which are generally "generated" programs) to be optimised than with 
V5.2. The only reason it is V6, not V5.3, is because of this change.

Have a look at Youtube for Enterprise COBOL V6.1. There's an Introduction, 
which is only two weeks old, and a two-month old "Migration Assistant" video. 
I've not seen either yet...

If it were easy to use INITCHECK with OPT(0), but the compile would take 
longer, why didn't they just do it? It's a migration and perhaps "initial 
compile" thing? If it takes longer, it is then your choice to use it or not.

--


This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Bill Woodger]

"Actually, Tom Ross in his migration presentation recommends this procedure:..."


Yes, unfortunately that was May 2016, and INITCHECK appeared in September 2016.

The reference I was making was to the V6.1 Migration Guide. The advice seems 
not to be in the MG for V5.2, although INITCHECK is there.

With V6.1, the compiler "back end" uses 64-bit addressing, allowing larger 
programs (which are generally "generated" programs) to be optimised than with 
V5.2. The only reason it is V6, not V5.3, is because of this change.

Have a look at Youtube for Enterprise COBOL V6.1. There's an Introduction, 
which is only two weeks old, and a two-month old "Migration Assistant" video. 
I've not seen either yet...

If it were easy to use INITCHECK with OPT(0), but the compile would take 
longer, why didn't they just do it? It's a migration and perhaps "initial 
compile" thing? If it takes longer, it is then your choice to use it or not.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Farley, Peter x23353]

Thanks Jeffrey.  I will pass that on here.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Holst, Jeffrey A
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 9:30 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with 
OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

I encountered this same issue while installing COBOL V6.1. Seeing no 
documentation about this, I opened a PMR. 

I think that part of the resolution was to document this.

The explanation that I got was that while there was no technical reason for the 
incompatibility,  the point of OPTIMIZE(0) is to obtain a fast compile at the 
expense of performance when the program is executed. Apparently INITCHECK 
causes the compiler to run much longer, defeating the purpose of OPTIMIZE(0). 
Thus IBM's decision to make these options incompatible.

Jeffrey Holst
Systems Administator Senior
Technology and Operations, Shared Services Whitehall Service Center 2
(614) 856-5443

--

Date:Thu, 26 Jan 2017 15:25:00 -0500
From:"Farley, Peter x23353" <peter.far...@broadridge.com>
Subject: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? 
(Msg IGYOS4021-W)

We are beginning the transition to COBOL V5.2 from V4.2 and exploring the new 
options available for debugging.

We just discovered that the INITCHECK option is incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0).  
Using both options generates this warning-level message:

IGYOS4021-W   The "INITCHECK" option was discarded due to option conflict 
resolution.  The "OPTIMIZE(0)" option took precedence. 

There is no restriction documented for INITCHECK in the V5.2 Programmer's Guide 
and no mention of this incompatibility in the section on incompatible compiler 
options either.

Is this a maintenance issue?  Are we missing a PTF or was there a PTF applied 
that introduced the restriction without updating the documentation?  If the 
latter, a pointer to the PTF documentation would be appreciated.

Peter
--


This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Farley, Peter x23353]

Actually, Tom Ross in his migration presentation recommends this procedure:

Best Practices for COBOL V5/V6 Migration
To find out if users have invalid data, IBM has recommendations for
migrating to COBOL V5/V6:
1. Compile with SSRANGE, ZONECHECK and OPT(0) for initial code
changes and unit test
– To find table misuse and invalid data
– OPT(0) programs are easiest to debug
2. Recompile with NOSSRANGE, NOZONECHECK and OPT(2) for
quality assurance test and production
– NOSSRANGE and NOZONECHECK are required for good
performance
– OPT(2) is preferred for good performance in production

 Note: You may have to change to a 2-compile development process if
you are not using one already

No mention of INITCHECK there at all.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bill Woodger
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 4:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with 
OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 20:56:27 -0600, Mike Schwab <mike.a.sch...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Initially, the numeric / zero checks would not work like before.  I 
>know there is an parm to make it work like before in 6.1.  Not sure if 
>they applied it to 5.2.
>
>IBM Cobol Documentation page.  Click on Version (6.1) then download 
>Migration guide.  Compare to 5.2 guide.
>http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=swg27036733 & download PDF.

INITCHECK is new, so can't really have a different behaviour to before.

I think what you are referring to is the general problem that using "bad data", 
which then gives "undefined results" (perhaps rather "not the expected defined 
results") can change between compilers (up to V4.2 vs V5+).

IBM's recommendation is to compile with SSRANGE, ZONECHECK and INITCHECK and 
run regression-tests (acutually, since INITCHECK is a compile-time-only thing, 
check the compile listing before running anything for that...). Even where 
suggesting that there should be a mention of OPT greater than zero if required 
for INITCHECK.

--


This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Holst, Jeffrey A]

I encountered this same issue while installing COBOL V6.1. Seeing no 
documentation about this, I opened a PMR. 

I think that part of the resolution was to document this.

The explanation that I got was that while there was no technical reason for the 
incompatibility,  the point of OPTIMIZE(0) is to obtain a fast compile at the 
expense of performance when the program is executed. Apparently INITCHECK 
causes the compiler to run much longer, defeating the purpose of OPTIMIZE(0). 
Thus IBM's decision to make these options incompatible.

Jeffrey Holst
Systems Administator Senior
Technology and Operations, Shared Services
Whitehall Service Center 2
(614) 856-5443

--

Date:Thu, 26 Jan 2017 15:25:00 -0500
From:"Farley, Peter x23353" 
Subject: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? 
(Msg IGYOS4021-W)

We are beginning the transition to COBOL V5.2 from V4.2 and exploring the new 
options available for debugging.

We just discovered that the INITCHECK option is incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0).  
Using both options generates this warning-level message:

IGYOS4021-W   The "INITCHECK" option was discarded due to option conflict 
resolution.  The "OPTIMIZE(0)" option took precedence. 

There is no restriction documented for INITCHECK in the V5.2 Programmer's Guide 
and no mention of this incompatibility in the section on incompatible compiler 
options either.

Is this a maintenance issue?  Are we missing a PTF or was there a PTF applied 
that introduced the restriction without updating the documentation?  If the 
latter, a pointer to the PTF documentation would be appreciated.

Peter
--

This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

***



The contents of this email are the property of PNC. If it was not addressed to 
you, you have no legal right to read it. If you think you received it in error, 
please notify the sender. Do not forward or copy without permission of the 
sender. This message may be considered a commercial electronic message under 
Canadian law or this message may contain an advertisement of a product or 
service and thus may constitute a commercial electronic mail message under US 
law. You may unsubscribe at any time from receiving commercial electronic 
messages from PNC at http://pages.e.pnc.com/globalunsub/
PNC, 249 Fifth Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15222; pnc.com




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Bill Woodger]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 20:56:27 -0600, Mike Schwab  wrote:

>Initially, the numeric / zero checks would not work like before.  I
>know there is an parm to make it work like before in 6.1.  Not sure if
>they applied it to 5.2.
>
>IBM Cobol Documentation page.  Click on Version (6.1) then download
>Migration guide.  Compare to 5.2 guide.
>http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=swg27036733 & download PDF.
>
>
>

INITCHECK is new, so can't really have a different behaviour to before.

I think what you are referring to is the general problem that using "bad data", 
which then gives "undefined results" (perhaps rather "not the expected defined 
results") can change between compilers (up to V4.2 vs V5+).

IBM's recommendation is to compile with SSRANGE, ZONECHECK and INITCHECK and 
run regression-tests (acutually, since INITCHECK is a compile-time-only thing, 
check the compile listing before running anything for that...). Even where 
suggesting that there should be a mention of OPT greater than zero if required 
for INITCHECK.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Bill Woodger]

Although I can't see it documented, I suspect that INITCHECK can only be 
offered as a side-effect of the complex analysis which is already done for the 
higher levels of optimisation, and which is not done at the lowest level of 
optimisation (OPT(0)). The message is probably correct, but the relationship 
should be documented in the Programming Guide.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Mike Schwab]

Initially, the numeric / zero checks would not work like before.  I
know there is an parm to make it work like before in 6.1.  Not sure if
they applied it to 5.2.

IBM Cobol Documentation page.  Click on Version (6.1) then download
Migration guide.  Compare to 5.2 guide.
http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=swg27036733 & download PDF.



On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:37 PM, Farley, Peter x23353
<peter.far...@broadridge.com> wrote:
> Not my call, unfortunately.  Mgmt decision already made more than several 
> levels above me.
>
> If there are any docs out there (preferably slide-type presentations suitable 
> for mgmt) with technical justification(s) that could help change the 
> decision, I'd appreciate pointers.
>
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:20 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with 
> OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)
>
> I would suggest getting 6.1 then converting.  IBM made some changes that 
> eliminate some situations that need coding changes.  Should be the same 
> license cost, just cost you install time.  Be sure to convert to Country 
> Multiplex / MSU licensing so you don't have a limited time before having to 
> pay for 4.2 AND 5.2/6.1.
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Farley, Peter x23353 
> <peter.far...@broadridge.com> wrote:
>> We are beginning the transition to COBOL V5.2 from V4.2 and exploring the 
>> new options available for debugging.
>>
>> We just discovered that the INITCHECK option is incompatible with 
>> OPTIMIZE(0).  Using both options generates this warning-level message:
>>
>> IGYOS4021-W   The "INITCHECK" option was discarded due to option conflict 
>> resolution.  The "OPTIMIZE(0)" option took precedence.
>>
>> There is no restriction documented for INITCHECK in the V5.2 Programmer's 
>> Guide and no mention of this incompatibility in the section on incompatible 
>> compiler options either.
>>
>> Is this a maintenance issue?  Are we missing a PTF or was there a PTF 
>> applied that introduced the restriction without updating the documentation?  
>> If the latter, a pointer to the PTF documentation would be appreciated.
>>
>> Peter
> --
>
> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If 
> the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail 
> and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Farley, Peter x23353]

Not my call, unfortunately.  Mgmt decision already made more than several 
levels above me.

If there are any docs out there (preferably slide-type presentations suitable 
for mgmt) with technical justification(s) that could help change the decision, 
I'd appreciate pointers.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Mike Schwab
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with 
OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

I would suggest getting 6.1 then converting.  IBM made some changes that 
eliminate some situations that need coding changes.  Should be the same license 
cost, just cost you install time.  Be sure to convert to Country Multiplex / 
MSU licensing so you don't have a limited time before having to pay for 4.2 AND 
5.2/6.1.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Farley, Peter x23353 
<peter.far...@broadridge.com> wrote:
> We are beginning the transition to COBOL V5.2 from V4.2 and exploring the new 
> options available for debugging.
>
> We just discovered that the INITCHECK option is incompatible with 
> OPTIMIZE(0).  Using both options generates this warning-level message:
>
> IGYOS4021-W   The "INITCHECK" option was discarded due to option conflict 
> resolution.  The "OPTIMIZE(0)" option took precedence.
>
> There is no restriction documented for INITCHECK in the V5.2 Programmer's 
> Guide and no mention of this incompatibility in the section on incompatible 
> compiler options either.
>
> Is this a maintenance issue?  Are we missing a PTF or was there a PTF applied 
> that introduced the restriction without updating the documentation?  If the 
> latter, a pointer to the PTF documentation would be appreciated.
>
> Peter
--

This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: COBOL V5.2 question: INITCHECK option incompatible with OPTIMIZE(0)? (Msg IGYOS4021-W)

[Mike Schwab]

I would suggest getting 6.1 then converting.  IBM made some changes
that eliminate some situations that need coding changes.  Should be
the same license cost, just cost you install time.  Be sure to convert
to Country Multiplex / MSU licensing so you don't have a limited time
before having to pay for 4.2 AND 5.2/6.1.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Farley, Peter x23353
 wrote:
> We are beginning the transition to COBOL V5.2 from V4.2 and exploring the new 
> options available for debugging.
>
> We just discovered that the INITCHECK option is incompatible with 
> OPTIMIZE(0).  Using both options generates this warning-level message:
>
> IGYOS4021-W   The "INITCHECK" option was discarded due to option conflict 
> resolution.  The "OPTIMIZE(0)" option took precedence.
>
> There is no restriction documented for INITCHECK in the V5.2 Programmer's 
> Guide and no mention of this incompatibility in the section on incompatible 
> compiler options either.
>
> Is this a maintenance issue?  Are we missing a PTF or was there a PTF applied 
> that introduced the restriction without updating the documentation?  If the 
> latter, a pointer to the PTF documentation would be appreciated.
>
> Peter
> --
>
> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If 
> the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail 
> and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN