Re: Two related member generation questions

[Seymour J Metz]

For transient SVC name it was a trailing  C0; I was just contrasting member 
names with index levels. I guess that IBM decided to eliminate an alleged 
ambiguity between member name and relative generation.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 10:55 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

On Wed, 31 May 2023 11:57:07 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
>I don't recall leading braces or hyphens in qualifiers,
>
Leading?  In member names?  I was told it was the result of UNPK
of a SVC number.

> ... but leading hyphens in member names used to work, and I was unhappy when 
> IBM tightened the validity check in the C/I.
>
They should have gone the other way and allowed quoting the member name.

--
gil

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 12:57, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Keep? Still? I don't recall saying it more than once.

I thought (back in April) that I'd read your "are you sure you don't
mean in an old version of SMP, rather than SMP/E", comment at
least once before - possibly lots of years ago though.

I've only got a few hundred old IBM-MAIN posts accessible on
the system I'm using now so can't search right back to whenever
I started posting - which I expect was in the 1990s.  And searching
for old posts containing eg "member name" or "member-name"
plus "weird" or "strange" or something is likely to be unrewarding
as those words wll crop up in lots of posts.

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 11:50, David Spiegel wrote:
> Hi Jeremy,
> "...I've no idea if that is or was correct ..."
> Have you ever heard of the CSI (Consolidated  Software Inventory)?
> This/these VSAM Dataset(s) has/have been part of SMP/e since the day it 
> came out in the '80s.

Yes, of course.  But I answered in the context of I/O to the PDSes.  It
seems weird that they'd be VSAM.

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[David Spiegel]

Hi Gil,
"... Leading? In member names? I was told it was the result of UNPK of a 
SVC number.  ..."

Not leading, but trailing.

Regards,
David

On 2023-05-31 10:55, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Wed, 31 May 2023 11:57:07 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

I don't recall leading braces or hyphens in qualifiers,


Leading?  In member names?  I was told it was the result of UNPK
of a SVC number.


... but leading hyphens in member names used to work, and I was unhappy when 
IBM tightened the validity check in the C/I.


They should have gone the other way and allowed quoting the member name.



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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 31 May 2023 11:57:07 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
>I don't recall leading braces or hyphens in qualifiers, 
>
Leading?  In member names?  I was told it was the result of UNPK
of a SVC number.

> ... but leading hyphens in member names used to work, and I was unhappy when 
> IBM tightened the validity check in the C/I.
>
They should have gone the other way and allowed quoting the member name.

-- 
gil

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Seymour J Metz]

Keep? Still? I don't recall saying it more than once.

I overlooked SCDS.

I don't recall leading braces or hyphens in qualifiers, but leading hyphens in 
member names used to work, and I was unhappy when IBM tightened the validity 
check in the C/I.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 6:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

On Tue, 30 May 2023, at 21:41, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> SMP/E uses VSAM

I've no idea if that is or was correct

> and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4.

You keep saying this ... and you're still wrong.  I don't know why you're so
sure.  Maybe it's changed since then (sometime between 1985 and 2000
or so, I expect).

I only ever used SMP/E, and wonky member names did exist in one (at least)
of the PDSes it used to store stuff.   I seem to remember also that the PDS
I found them in had a vast number of members in it - can't recall just how
many that was though.

Last time we discussed this (around 09 APRIL this year) I guessed which PDS
it might have been - and was probably wrong.  Someone else said they
thought it was perhaps the SMPSCDS.


I've just run a search of my PC copies of some old mainframe notes, JCL
etc, looking for "SMPSCDS" and I found a reference to this exact issue
inside the transcript of a discussion I had with IBM support (from, I think,
the year 2000), when we were using  os390 2.6 ... though that's not the
os in which I first noticed the weird member names).


The discussion was on the wider issue of poor documentation of
just exactly which characters were valid in datasetnames.  For
example I'd found it was psossible to create dsnames with dashes
/ minus signs / hyphens in their qualifiers.

IBM said it was impossible.  It wasn't - I'd successfully created

   MYHLQ.TEST--

via ispf option 3.2  and also

   MYHLQ.TEST-

in JCL, without having single quotes around those dsnames.

Another character one could get into a qualifier was the left curly
bracket (of course those are in some SVC member names) and
perhaps the code that allowed those in ispf accidentally allowed
them in qualifiers as well.  I can't remember.

The conversation then moved on to implications of not being
able to SMS-manage datasets whose names didn't meet the
tighter rules that SMS used.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[David Spiegel]

Hi Jeremy,
"...I've no idea if that is or was correct ..."
Have you ever heard of the CSI (Consolidated  Software Inventory)?
This/these VSAM Dataset(s) has/have been part of SMP/e since the day it 
came out in the '80s.


Regards,
David

On 2023-05-30 18:20, Jeremy Nicoll wrote:

On Tue, 30 May 2023, at 21:41, Seymour J Metz wrote:

SMP/E uses VSAM

I've no idea if that is or was correct


and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4.

You keep saying this ... and you're still wrong.  I don't know why you're so
sure.  Maybe it's changed since then (sometime between 1985 and 2000
or so, I expect).

I only ever used SMP/E, and wonky member names did exist in one (at least)
of the PDSes it used to store stuff.   I seem to remember also that the PDS
I found them in had a vast number of members in it - can't recall just how
many that was though.

Last time we discussed this (around 09 APRIL this year) I guessed which PDS
it might have been - and was probably wrong.  Someone else said they
thought it was perhaps the SMPSCDS.


I've just run a search of my PC copies of some old mainframe notes, JCL
etc, looking for "SMPSCDS" and I found a reference to this exact issue
inside the transcript of a discussion I had with IBM support (from, I think,
the year 2000), when we were using  os390 2.6 ... though that's not the
os in which I first noticed the weird member names).


The discussion was on the wider issue of poor documentation of
just exactly which characters were valid in datasetnames.  For
example I'd found it was psossible to create dsnames with dashes
/ minus signs / hyphens in their qualifiers.

IBM said it was impossible.  It wasn't - I'd successfully created

MYHLQ.TEST--

via ispf option 3.2  and also

MYHLQ.TEST-

in JCL, without having single quotes around those dsnames.

Another character one could get into a qualifier was the left curly
bracket (of course those are in some SVC member names) and
perhaps the code that allowed those in ispf accidentally allowed
them in qualifiers as well.  I can't remember.

The conversation then moved on to implications of not being
able to SMS-manage datasets whose names didn't meet the
tighter rules that SMS used.



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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Tue, 30 May 2023, at 21:41, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> SMP/E uses VSAM

I've no idea if that is or was correct

> and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4.

You keep saying this ... and you're still wrong.  I don't know why you're so 
sure.  Maybe it's changed since then (sometime between 1985 and 2000
or so, I expect).

I only ever used SMP/E, and wonky member names did exist in one (at least)
of the PDSes it used to store stuff.   I seem to remember also that the PDS
I found them in had a vast number of members in it - can't recall just how
many that was though.

Last time we discussed this (around 09 APRIL this year) I guessed which PDS
it might have been - and was probably wrong.  Someone else said they 
thought it was perhaps the SMPSCDS.


I've just run a search of my PC copies of some old mainframe notes, JCL 
etc, looking for "SMPSCDS" and I found a reference to this exact issue
inside the transcript of a discussion I had with IBM support (from, I think,
the year 2000), when we were using  os390 2.6 ... though that's not the
os in which I first noticed the weird member names).


The discussion was on the wider issue of poor documentation of 
just exactly which characters were valid in datasetnames.  For 
example I'd found it was psossible to create dsnames with dashes
/ minus signs / hyphens in their qualifiers.

IBM said it was impossible.  It wasn't - I'd successfully created

   MYHLQ.TEST--

via ispf option 3.2  and also 

   MYHLQ.TEST-

in JCL, without having single quotes around those dsnames.  

Another character one could get into a qualifier was the left curly
bracket (of course those are in some SVC member names) and 
perhaps the code that allowed those in ispf accidentally allowed
them in qualifiers as well.  I can't remember.

The conversation then moved on to implications of not being 
able to SMS-manage datasets whose names didn't meet the
tighter rules that SMS used.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Pommier, Rex]

Really?  I just looked at my z/OS SCDS (2.4).  Definitely a PDS structure and 
here's what it looks like:

Name   
.G.3
.GXc'...
../.
.Z7X>...
_{..
_...

nGXc=...

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 3:42 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP/E uses VSAM and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!uTR2hbpd_alY4SYl5X-y48A6PyMh-bKdl71yTkm3CC3CiVvwwxBU5lk4rG8gxT8D0nHq0JJGzRoNKtl7FQ$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jay 
Maynard [jaymayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the 
> member names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I thought I 
> should point out that an IBM product does create "illegal" (per JCL) 
> member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this, 
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with 
> > names beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I 
> > don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Seymour J Metz]

SMP/E uses VSAM and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jay 
Maynard [jaymayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the member
> names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I
> thought I should point out that an IBM product does create
> "illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
> > beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
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>
>
>
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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Sri h Kolusu]

>> Turned on both of the empty member options and it still does not allow input 
>> under Prompt.


Charles,

I misunderstood your request.  The prompt option is not available as it is 
already provided in the EDIT menu itself. However, the panel ISREDM01 is NOT 
updated with the prompt options you see in 3.4.  Look at the bottom of the 
screen which allows you to input the Initial macro and profile names…  you just 
need to use 3.4 for member generations.

ISREDM01 EDIT  Edit Entry Panel
 Command ===>

 ISPF Library:
Project . . .
Group . . . .  . . .  . . .  . . .
Type  . . . .
Member  . . . (Blank or pattern for member selection list)

 Other Partitioned, Sequential or VSAM Data Set, or z/OS UNIX file:
Name . . . . . PDSE2  +
Volume Serial . .   (If not cataloged)

 Workstation File:
File Name  . .
 Options
 Initial Macro  . . . . Confirm Cancel/Move/Replace
 Profile Name . . . . . Mixed Mode
 Format Name  . . . . . Edit on Workstation
 Data Set Password  . . Preserve VB record length
 Record Length  . . . .
 Line Command Table . .  Data Encoding
1. ASCII
2. UTF-8




Thanks,
Kolusu


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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Charles Mills]

Turned on both of the empty member options and it still does not allow input 
under Prompt.

This is with Edit -- ISPF 2. Works with DSLIST -- ISPF 3.4.

Charles


On Tue, 30 May 2023 17:00:50 +, Sri h Kolusu  wrote:

>>> Interesting. The Edit member selection panel (ISPF 2 with a blank member 
>>> name) shows a Prompt heading but the fields are protected.
>
>Charles,
>
>You probably don’t have the option to edit empty members.  Using option 0 
>(settings) from ISPF main menu and look at Member list options  at the bottom

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Sri h Kolusu]

>> Interesting. The Edit member selection panel (ISPF 2 with a blank member 
>> name) shows a Prompt heading but the fields are protected.

Charles,

You probably don’t have the option to edit empty members.  Using option 0 
(settings) from ISPF main menu and look at Member list options  at the bottom

  Log/List  Function keys  Colors  Environ  Workstation  Identifier  Help
ss
SETTINGSISPF Settings
Command ===>

Options   Print Graphics
  Enter "/" to select optionFamily printer type 2
 Command line at bottom Device name . . . .
 Panel display CUA mode Aspect ratio  . . . 0
  /  Long message in pop-up
 Tab to action bar choices
 Tab to point-and-shoot fieldsGeneral
 Restore TEST/TRACE options Input field pad . . B
 Session Manager mode   Command delimiter . ;
 Jump from leader dots
 Edit PRINTDS Command
 Always show split line
 Enable EURO sign

Member list options
  Enter "/" to select option
  /  Scroll member list
  /  Allow empty member list
  /  Allow empty member list (nomatch)
  /  Empty member list for edit only


Thanks,
Kolusu



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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Charles Mills]

@Sri and @Steve, thank you. Got it. From ISPF 3.4.

Interesting. The Edit member selection panel (ISPF 2 with a blank member name) 
shows a Prompt heading but the fields are protected.

Charles

On Tue, 30 May 2023 16:39:53 +, Sri h Kolusu  wrote:

1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations?
>
>Charles,
>
>There is no JCL suprort for member generations, but ISPF does provide the 
>support.  Here is how you do it.
>
>
>1. Allocate PDSE rersion 2 with maxgens defined at 20.  Note your allocation 
>will fail if your SYS1.PARMLIB(IGDSMSxx) member does not have MAXGENS_LIMIT 
>specified)
>
>
>//STEP0100 EXEC PGMEIEFBR14
>//AF01 DD DSN=,
>//DISP=(NEW,CATLG,DELETE),
>//UNIT=SYSDA,
>//SPACE=(CYL,(1,1,5)),
>//DSNTYPE=(LIBRARY,2),MAXGENS=20,
>//DCB=(LRECL=80,RECFM=FB,BLKSIZE=0)
>
>2. Create a member in the above allocated PDS
>
>   Menu  Functions  Confirm  Utilities  Help
> s
> DSLIST  EDIT  USERID.PDSE2
> Command ===> s test1
>Name Prompt   Size   Created
>   **End**

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Sri h Kolusu]

>>>1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations?

Charles,

There is no JCL support for member generations, but ISPF does provide the 
support.  Here is how you do it.


1. Allocate PDSE version 2 with maxgens defined at 20.  Note your allocation 
will fail if your SYS1.PARMLIB(IGDSMSxx) member does not have MAXGENS_LIMIT 
specified)


//STEP0100 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14
//AF01 DD DSN=,
//DISP=(NEW,CATLG,DELETE),
//UNIT=SYSDA,
//SPACE=(CYL,(1,1,5)),
//DSNTYPE=(LIBRARY,2),MAXGENS=20,
//DCB=(LRECL=80,RECFM=FB,BLKSIZE=0)

2. Create a member in the above allocated PDS

   Menu  Functions  Confirm  Utilities  Help
 s
 DSLIST  EDIT  USERID.PDSE2
 Command ===> s test1
Name Prompt   Size   Created
   **End**


3. Add just 1 record

 DSLIST USERID.PDSE2(TEST1) - 01.00   Colu
 Command ===>  S
 ** * Top of Data **
 ==MSG> -Warning- The UNDO command is not available until you change
 ==MSG>   your edit profile using the command RECOVERY ON.
 '' abc
 ''
 ''

4. Issue a SAVE

5. Insert another record

DSLIST USERID.PDSE2(TEST1) - 01.00   Some
Command ===>
** * Top of Data ***
==MSG> -Warning- The UNDO command is not available until you change
==MSG>   your edit profile using the command RECOVERY ON.
000100 abc
'' def

6. Issue another SAVE

7. Insert another record

DSLIST USERID.PDSE2(TEST1) - 01.00   C
Command ===>
** * Top of Data ***
==MSG> -Warning- The UNDO command is not available until you change
==MSG>   your edit profile using the command RECOVERY ON.
000100 abc
000200 def
'' ghi

8. Issue another SAVE

Now you have 3 generations of the member.

9.To access the -2 version do the following (make sure you have a slash under 
the PROMPT column)


  Menu  Functions  Confirm  Utilities  Help
ss
DSLIST  EDIT  USERID.PDSE2
Command ===>
   Name Prompt   Size   Created
e TEST1/3  2023/05/30
  **End**

In the panel prompt (put -2 for PDSE generation) field)

Esss
e   Workstation  Help
e 
e DSLISTEDIT Entry Panel
e  More: +
e Object Name:
e 'USERID.PDSE2(TEST1)'
e * No workstation connection
e   Initial Macro  . .
e   PDSE Generation. . -2
e   Line Command Table
e   Profile Name . . .   (Blank defaults to Type)
e   Format Name  . . .
e   Panel Name . . . .   (Leave blank for default)
e
e   Options   Data Encoding
e  Confirm Cancel/Move/Replace   1. ASCII
e  EDIT Mixed Mode   2. UTF-8
e  EDIT host file on
e  Workstation
e  Preserve VB record length
e   /  Warn on First Data Change
e
Dsss




Now you will see this

** * Top of Data *
==MSG> -Warning- The UNDO command is not available until you change
==MSG>   your edit profile using the command RECOVERY ON.
==MSG> -CAUTION- Edit session has been invoked for generation 2
==MSG>   High generation number is currently 3
01 abc


Hope this helps..

Thanks,
Kolusu


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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Steve Smith]

>From an "Extended" member list display (with the 8-char command field), you
can place a '/' in the Prompt field:

EDIT  SAS00.MAIN.CNTLMember DEFDDIR1
saved
Command ===>  Scroll ===>
CSR
   Name Prompt   Size   Created  Changed
 ID
s DEFDDIR1 /Edited 23  2023/05/30  2023/05/30 22:48:08
 SAS00

That will cause this pop-up:

+---+
|   Help|
|   |
|   EDIT Entry Panel|
|   |
| Object Name:  |
| 'SAS00.MAIN.CNTL(DEFDDIR1)'   |
|   Initial Macro  . .  |
|   PDSE Generation. . -2   |
<- specify here
|   Line Command Table  |
|   Profile Name . . .   (Blank defaults to Type)   |
|   Format Name  . . .  |
|   Panel Name . . . .   (Leave blank for default)  |
|   |
|   Options   Data Encoding |
|  Confirm Cancel/Move/Replace   1. ASCII   |
|  EDIT Mixed Mode   2. UTF-8   |
|  Preserve VB record length|
|   /  Warn on First Data Change|
|   |
| Press ENTER to continue. Press CANCEL to cancel action.   |
|   |
|   |
+---+

hth,
sas


On Mon, May 29, 2023 at 11:05 PM Charles Mills  wrote:

> I'll bite: where is it hidden?
>
> CM
>
>

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

Charles,

Try this Share presentation. (Rather long URL. If problem just try searching 
for "PDSE member generations").

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=j==s=web==2ahUKEwjQ7oG7rJ3_AhXSTEEAHcKyBAsQFnoECBUQAQ=https%3A%2F%2Fshare.confex.com%2Fshare%2F125%2Fwebprogram%2FHandout%2FSession17831%2FSHARE%2520Using%2520Member%2520Generations.pdf=AOvVaw3AfII9eO3h_kXWAw7fhdTk
 

Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Mills
Sent: 30 May 2023 04:05
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

I'll bite: where is it hidden? 

CM

On Mon, 29 May 2023 21:28:50 -0400, Steve Smith  wrote:

>Yes, one of the "hidden secrets" of ISPF.  I use it a lot, but you kind 
>of have to be told it's there, and get used to it.  It's very clunky.

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lionel B. Dyck]

Your reasons are some of those that prompted the creation of PDSEGEN.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

Lack of better member generation support is the reason that my team is still 
using PDS instead of PDS/E. We *like* the ability to easily retrieve previous 
and deleted versions of members from the PDS "gas".

(This is helped because we have a home-written ISPF panel that lets you 
display, search, filter, browse, compare, restore, and rename previous versions 
of members that are still in the PDS directory.)


Another reason is that the way the PDSE v2 member generation limit works is 
that it is a limit on every member. If you set it to keep 10, then it keeps 10 
generations of EVERY member, forever. But what if this is your main source 
library, were only a small fraction of the member have been changed in the last 
decade? 10 generations would be too many for the older members but not enough 
for the newer, more frequently changed members.

I opened an Idea for this: "Request to add more flexibility to PDSE Member 
Generations". Status is "Future consideration"
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-2764


And another reason is that it isn't easy to create a data set that copies the 
attributes of a PDSE, because JCL LIKE doesn't copy the PDSE Version and 
MAXGENS attributes. I created another Idea related to this: JCL LIKE for PDSE 
Version and MAXGENS, also with status "Future consideration":
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-2788



One final note: I have a suspicion that IBM has been eschewing enhancements to 
ISPF in favor of adding the functionality to File Manager instead.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Lionel B. Dyck
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

True enough - and one more thing is that while IBM supports member generations, 
they DO NOT support them via JCL, dynamic allocation, or the majority of their 
utilities/tools. And don't even try to find them in zExplorer, ZOWE, or ZOAU 
(or is it ZAOU?).


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com/
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jay 
Maynard
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the 
> member names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I thought I 
> should point out that an IBM product does create "illegal" (per JCL) 
> member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this, 
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with 
> > names beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I 
> > don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> 

Re: Two related member generation questions

[Schmitt, Michael]

Lack of better member generation support is the reason that my team is still 
using PDS instead of PDS/E. We *like* the ability to easily retrieve previous 
and deleted versions of members from the PDS "gas".

(This is helped because we have a home-written ISPF panel that lets you 
display, search, filter, browse, compare, restore, and rename previous versions 
of members that are still in the PDS directory.)


Another reason is that the way the PDSE v2 member generation limit works is 
that it is a limit on every member. If you set it to keep 10, then it keeps 10 
generations of EVERY member, forever. But what if this is your main source 
library, were only a small fraction of the member have been changed in the last 
decade? 10 generations would be too many for the older members but not enough 
for the newer, more frequently changed members.

I opened an Idea for this: "Request to add more flexibility to PDSE Member 
Generations". Status is "Future consideration"
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-2764


And another reason is that it isn't easy to create a data set that copies the 
attributes of a PDSE, because JCL LIKE doesn't copy the PDSE Version and 
MAXGENS attributes. I created another Idea related to this: JCL LIKE for PDSE 
Version and MAXGENS, also with status "Future consideration":
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-2788



One final note: I have a suspicion that IBM has been eschewing enhancements to 
ISPF in favor of adding the functionality to File Manager instead.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Lionel B. Dyck
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

True enough - and one more thing is that while IBM supports member generations, 
they DO NOT support them via JCL, dynamic allocation, or the majority of their 
utilities/tools. And don't even try to find them in zExplorer, ZOWE, or ZOAU 
(or is it ZAOU?).


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com/
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jay 
Maynard
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the
> member names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I thought I
> should point out that an IBM product does create "illegal" (per JCL)
> member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with
> > names beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I
> > don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
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>


--
Jay Maynard

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lionel B. Dyck]

True enough - and one more thing is that while IBM supports member generations, 
they DO NOT support them via JCL, dynamic allocation, or the majority of their 
utilities/tools. And don't even try to find them in zExplorer, ZOWE, or ZOAU 
(or is it ZAOU?).


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jay 
Maynard
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the 
> member names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I thought I 
> should point out that an IBM product does create "illegal" (per JCL) 
> member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this, 
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with 
> > names beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I 
> > don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
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--
Jay Maynard

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Jay Maynard]

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the member
> names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I
> thought I should point out that an IBM product does create
> "illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
> > beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>


-- 
Jay Maynard

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Schmitt, Michael]

And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the member 
names.

Such as:

."wACOV0
07ACCDEF
2F613650



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I
thought I should point out that an IBM product does create
"illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.

In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.

So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
because it has been done.

Steve Thompson

On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>
> Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
> beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't believe 
> it's proper
> for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions harsher than
> those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF', indicaring
> the end of a PDS directory.
>
> How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member "generations"?
>

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 30 May 2023 09:18:48 -0400, Steve Thompson wrote:

>I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I
>thought I should point out that an IBM product does create
>"illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.
>
Also Binder with the CASE(MIXED) option.


>So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
>because it has been done.
>
Also prevalent in CMS, where it seems to be the poor man's "Security by 
Obscurity".

-- 
gil

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Steve Thompson]

I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I 
thought I should point out that an IBM product does create 
"illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.


In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd" 
and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.


So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this, 
because it has been done.


Steve Thompson

On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:


Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't believe 
it's proper
for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions harsher than
those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF', indicaring
the end of a PDS directory.

How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member "generations"?



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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Seymour J Metz]

To clarify, you must use the absolute dsn if you need to specify a member name 
*in the JCL* but you can use a relative generation to allocate a PDS[E] to a 
step that opens the GDS with DSORG=PO and processes individual members via, 
e.g., FIND, OPENJ.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Thompson [ste...@wkyr.net]
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2023 8:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

Well, I had to go read this. Here is what it says in the DFSMS
Using Data Sets Manual (z/OS 2.5) SC23-6855-50:


Data set organization of generation data sets

Generation data sets (GDSs) can be sequential, direct, or
partitioned data sets. *If you use PDSs or PDSEs**
**as generation data sets and you want to reference a member, you
must reference the member using**
**absolute data set names rather than relative names.* This is
because MVS JCL does not support specifying
both a relative name and a member name. To access a member of a
generation data set that is a PDS or
PDSE using JCL, you must use an absolute generation name.

Example: When referencing a generation data set using JCL, it is
common to use relative naming, as
inA.B.C(0),A.B.C(+1), orA.B.C(-1). *If you want to access a
member of a PDS or PDSE, you**
**cannot use relative naming because there is no way to specify
the member name in JCL. You can refer**
**to aspecificmember of a PDS or PDSE that is a
generation data set by using absolute names such as**
**A.B.C.G0005V00(MEMBER)**, but JCL does not allow
specifyingA,B.C(+5)(MEMBER)**.*

Restriction:

• Generation data sets cannot be VSAM data sets.
• *Note* that only z/OS systems at the V2R1 level or higher
support GDSs that are PDSEs:
– If you run a mixed sysplex anddefinea GDS PDSE on a system at
the z/OS V2R1 level, but
issue an access method service LISTCAT command on a system at a
lower level, the command
output will displaySTATUS---UNKNOWNfor deferred and rolled-off
GDS PDSEs. In this case LISCAT
command output will not display the DSNTYPE line for that PDSE.
For an active GDS PDSE, the
LISTCAT command output on a z/OS system below the V2R1 level
displaysSTATUS--ACTIVEand no
DSNTYPE.

– If you roll-off an active GDS PDSE data set from a z/OS system
at the V1R13 level or lower, the GDS
PDSE becomes a rolled-off simple GDS. If you roll-in back the GDS
from a z/OS system at the V2R1
level or lower, it becomes an active GDS (not an active GDS PDSE).

In both these cases, the data set can still be used as a PDSE,
(it can be loaded with members) because
the PDSE indicator for the data set remains set.

Absolute generation and version numbers

An absolute generation and version number is used to identify
aspecificgeneration of a GDG. The
generation and version numbers are in the formGVyy,
whereis an unsigned 4-digit decimal
generation number (0001 through ) andyyis an unsigned 2-digit
decimal version number (00
through 99). For example:

• A.B.C.G0001V00 is generation data set 1, version 0, in
generation data group A.B.C.
• A.B.C.G0009V01 is generation data set 9, version 1, in
generation data group A.B.C.

While it is technically possible todefinean explicit generation
of GV00, such adefinitionis
discouraged because it can cause unpredictable results when
deleting generation data sets using relative
generations.

The number of generations and versions is limited by the number
of digits in the absolute generation
name; that is, there can be 9,999 generations. Each generation
can have 100 versions. To maintain
relative order when the highest generation is  and a new
generation is added, the new generation is
assigned a wrap flag. The wrap flag causes the new generation to
behave as if it had 10,000 added to it.
This causes the ordering to be correct when going from  to
0001. Note: the next higher generation
from  is not , it is 0001. When all of the generations in
the generation index have the wrap
flag set, the wrap flags are all turned off. For example if we
have a generation index with 3 entries, and
the generations are , 0001, and 0002, with 0001 and 0002
having their wrap flags on, the order
would be , 0001, 0002. If a new generation is created, 0003,
it also has the wrap flag set. The LIMIT
causes the  to be rolled off from the index. 0001, 0002 and
0003 all have the wrap flag set, so
the wrap flag is turned off for all three generations. The order
is still valid and is 0001, 0002, 0003. If a
generation exceeds 2000 generations from the current generation,
the wrap flag is not set. You should not
create large relative generation gaps which can lead to order
problems.

I think I get it. I think this might be done via SLCM trying to
keep generations of source(?) -- Pure guess.

Steve Thompson

On 5/29/2023 7:47 PM, Steve Thompson wrote:
> Charles:
>
> I 

Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lionel B. Dyck]

As others have said - PDSE member generations are *not* generation data sets. A 
PDS or PDSE can be a GDS but the members are not. PDSE member generations 
provide similar functionality to a GDG in that the current generation has both 
a relative, and absolute, generation of 0. The prior generation has a relative 
generation of -1 and an absolute generation of from 1 to 2,000,000,000 (and 
note that if you reach the limit it does not wrap - at least the doc does not 
indicate it can wrap).

With ISPF prior to z/OS 3.1 you need ISPF library services to access generation 
- here is snippets copied from PDSEGEN (cbttape file 969 or 
github.com/lbdyck/pdsegen):
  
 "LMINIT DATAID(pdsegend) DATASET("pdsedsn")"  
 "LMOPEN DATAID("pdsegend") OPTION(INPUT)" 
 'edit dataid('pdsegend') member('mbr') gen('agen')'
 "LMClose dataid("pdsegend")"   

With z/OS 3.1 ISPF will have improvements to make it easier, still not ideal, 
for generations.

As for the zombie members that happens because both TSO DELETE, and ISPF member 
delete, only delete the base member (generation 0) and leave the generations 
alone. That is why with FileManager, the Review command (cbttape), and with 
PDSEGEN, you may see members with a relative generation of 0 and an absolute 
generation that is non-zero. PDSEGEN has its own delete process that supports 
deleting generations so zombies (or ghost members) will not happen. FileManager 
under 3.15, the workbench, also understands how to correctly handle generations.

Please vote for this IBM Idea (formerly RFE) 
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-1565 - 
currently in a status of 'Future consideration' with 157 votes.

Hope this helps somewhat.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Mills
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2023 4:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Two related member generation questions

1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations? If I 
want to reference or browse a PDSE 2 member generation other than the latest, 
is it possible to do so? Am I just missing the doc somewhere?

2. Is this not an error or at least an illogical statement in the JCL 
reference? Under DSNAME - Cataloged data set name it says

dsname(member)
Specifies the name of the permanent partitioned data set (PDS) or the 
partitioned data set extended (PDSE), and the name of a member within that data 
set. If the member does not exist and DISP=OLD or DISP=SHR is specified, the 
allocation will succeed, but the job will fail when the data set is opened for 
input. If the member does not exist and the data set is opened for output, the 
system will add the member to the data set.

member
1 to 8 alphanumeric or national characters, or a character X'C0'. The first 
character must be alphabetic, national, +, or -. If the first character is + or 
-, the member is a part of a generation data group.

dsname(generation)
Specifies the name of a generation data group (GDG) and the generation number 
(zero or a signed integer) of a generation data set within the GDG.

That member description is not right, is it? If the first character is numeric, 
+ or -, it's not a reference to a member of a PDS or PDSE at all -- it 
specifies a generation data set, right? Or is this support for member 
generations and I am not reading it correctly?

Also, member syntax has nothing to do with whether the dataset is cataloged, 
right? The syntax is exactly the same with a VOLSER reference or for a 
temporary dataset, right?

Charles

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 29 May 2023 19:10:55 -0500, Charles Mills wrote:
>
>>Support for PDSE as a member* of a GDG was added in z/OS 2.1 or 2, iirc.
>>*(not to be confused with members of a PDS[E]
>
>And also not to be confused with PDSE 2 member generations, right?
>
>> maybe they could have
>> tried harder not to be confusing
>
>Agreed.
> 
IBM couldn't have made it more confusing.  The proof is that they did not do so.

>>note, while GDGs usually consist of "generations" of the same dataset,
>>there's no rule that says they must be. 
>
>Interesting. Did not know that.
> 
Explain; even provide two examples; one of a GDG consisting of "generations" of 
the
same data[ ]set, and one which does not.

Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't believe 
it's proper
for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions harsher than
those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF', indicaring
the end of a PDS directory.

How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member "generations"?

-- 
gil

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Charles Mills]

I'll bite: where is it hidden? 

CM

On Mon, 29 May 2023 21:28:50 -0400, Steve Smith  wrote:

>Yes, one of the "hidden secrets" of ISPF.  I use it a lot, but you kind of
>have to be told it's there, and get used to it.  It's very clunky.

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Steve Smith]

Yes, one of the "hidden secrets" of ISPF.  I use it a lot, but you kind of
have to be told it's there, and get used to it.  It's very clunky.

FileManager has an option (3.15) called "PDSE Workbench" that displays
PDSEs with member generations very nicely, and provides comprehensive
compare tools.  It even shows "zombie" member generations that are
invisible to normal directory operations.

But, PDSEGEN does much the same thing, and it's cheaper.  Lionel Dyck and
his colleagues are experts on PDSE operations.


sas


On Mon, May 29, 2023 at 8:32 PM Tabari Alexander 
wrote:

> ISPF supports PDSE member generations via the prompt menu. With this
> interface the specific member generation can be browsed, edited and even
> saved as the latest version.
>
>

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Tabari Alexander]

ISPF supports PDSE member generations via the prompt menu. With this interface 
the specific member generation can be browsed, edited and even saved as the 
latest version.

On Mon, 29 May 2023 19:10:55 -0500, Charles Mills  wrote:

>@Steve, thanks.
>
>>JCL provides no support at all for PDSE member generations.
>
>Grumble, grumble. What about ISPF? I sure don't see it, but perhaps I am using 
>a customized ISPF? Or there is some option that is not turned on in the z/OS 
>that I am using?
>
>>Support for PDSE as a member* of a GDG was added in z/OS 2.1 or 2, iirc.
>>*(not to be confused with members of a PDS[E]
>
>And also not to be confused with PDSE 2 member generations, right?
>
>> maybe they could have
>> tried harder not to be confusing
>
>Agreed.
>
>>note, while GDGs usually consist of "generations" of the same dataset,
>>there's no rule that says they must be. 
>
>Interesting. Did not know that.
>
>Charles
>
>On Mon, 29 May 2023 19:28:35 -0400, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>>"GDGs can be members of PDS or PDSE." -I can't even guess what you're
>>trying to say, but on the face of it, that's not only wrong, but absurd.
>>
>>JCL provides no support at all for PDSE member generations.
>>
>>Support for PDSE as a member* of a GDG was added in z/OS 2.1 or 2, iirc.
>>*(not to be confused with members of a PDS[E], but maybe they could have
>>tried harder not to be confusing).  So, you can have multiple generations
>
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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Mike Schwab]

z/OS offers very little PDSE 2 Generation support.  Download
www.cbttape.org (file 969) for PDSEGEN utilities.

On Mon, May 29, 2023 at 4:57 PM Charles Mills  wrote:
>
> 1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations? If 
> I want to reference or browse a PDSE 2 member generation other than the 
> latest, is it possible to do so? Am I just missing the doc somewhere?
>

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Charles Mills]

@Steve, thanks.

>JCL provides no support at all for PDSE member generations.

Grumble, grumble. What about ISPF? I sure don't see it, but perhaps I am using 
a customized ISPF? Or there is some option that is not turned on in the z/OS 
that I am using?

>Support for PDSE as a member* of a GDG was added in z/OS 2.1 or 2, iirc.
>*(not to be confused with members of a PDS[E]

And also not to be confused with PDSE 2 member generations, right?

> maybe they could have
> tried harder not to be confusing

Agreed.

>note, while GDGs usually consist of "generations" of the same dataset,
>there's no rule that says they must be. 

Interesting. Did not know that.

Charles

On Mon, 29 May 2023 19:28:35 -0400, Steve Smith  wrote:

>"GDGs can be members of PDS or PDSE." -I can't even guess what you're
>trying to say, but on the face of it, that's not only wrong, but absurd.
>
>JCL provides no support at all for PDSE member generations.
>
>Support for PDSE as a member* of a GDG was added in z/OS 2.1 or 2, iirc.
>*(not to be confused with members of a PDS[E], but maybe they could have
>tried harder not to be confusing).  So, you can have multiple generations

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Steve Thompson]

Well, I had to go read this. Here is what it says in the DFSMS 
Using Data Sets Manual (z/OS 2.5) SC23-6855-50:



Data set organization of generation data sets

Generation data sets (GDSs) can be sequential, direct, or 
partitioned data sets. *If you use PDSs or PDSEs**
**as generation data sets and you want to reference a member, you 
must reference the member using**
**absolute data set names rather than relative names.* This is 
because MVS JCL does not support specifying
both a relative name and a member name. To access a member of a 
generation data set that is a PDS or

PDSE using JCL, you must use an absolute generation name.

Example: When referencing a generation data set using JCL, it is 
common to use relative naming, as
inA.B.C(0),A.B.C(+1), orA.B.C(-1). *If you want to access a 
member of a PDS or PDSE, you**
**cannot use relative naming because there is no way to specify 
the member name in JCL. You can refer**
**to aspecificmember of a PDS or PDSE that is a 
generation data set by using absolute names such as**
**A.B.C.G0005V00(MEMBER)**, but JCL does not allow 
specifyingA,B.C(+5)(MEMBER)**.*


Restriction:

• Generation data sets cannot be VSAM data sets.
• *Note* that only z/OS systems at the V2R1 level or higher 
support GDSs that are PDSEs:
– If you run a mixed sysplex anddefinea GDS PDSE on a system at 
the z/OS V2R1 level, but
issue an access method service LISTCAT command on a system at a 
lower level, the command
output will displaySTATUS---UNKNOWNfor deferred and rolled-off 
GDS PDSEs. In this case LISCAT
command output will not display the DSNTYPE line for that PDSE. 
For an active GDS PDSE, the
LISTCAT command output on a z/OS system below the V2R1 level 
displaysSTATUS--ACTIVEand no

DSNTYPE.

– If you roll-off an active GDS PDSE data set from a z/OS system 
at the V1R13 level or lower, the GDS
PDSE becomes a rolled-off simple GDS. If you roll-in back the GDS 
from a z/OS system at the V2R1

level or lower, it becomes an active GDS (not an active GDS PDSE).

In both these cases, the data set can still be used as a PDSE, 
(it can be loaded with members) because

the PDSE indicator for the data set remains set.

Absolute generation and version numbers

An absolute generation and version number is used to identify 
aspecificgeneration of a GDG. The
generation and version numbers are in the formGVyy, 
whereis an unsigned 4-digit decimal
generation number (0001 through ) andyyis an unsigned 2-digit 
decimal version number (00

through 99). For example:

• A.B.C.G0001V00 is generation data set 1, version 0, in 
generation data group A.B.C.
• A.B.C.G0009V01 is generation data set 9, version 1, in 
generation data group A.B.C.


While it is technically possible todefinean explicit generation 
of GV00, such adefinitionis
discouraged because it can cause unpredictable results when 
deleting generation data sets using relative

generations.

The number of generations and versions is limited by the number 
of digits in the absolute generation
name; that is, there can be 9,999 generations. Each generation 
can have 100 versions. To maintain
relative order when the highest generation is  and a new 
generation is added, the new generation is
assigned a wrap flag. The wrap flag causes the new generation to 
behave as if it had 10,000 added to it.
This causes the ordering to be correct when going from  to 
0001. Note: the next higher generation
from  is not , it is 0001. When all of the generations in 
the generation index have the wrap
flag set, the wrap flags are all turned off. For example if we 
have a generation index with 3 entries, and
the generations are , 0001, and 0002, with 0001 and 0002 
having their wrap flags on, the order
would be , 0001, 0002. If a new generation is created, 0003, 
it also has the wrap flag set. The LIMIT
causes the  to be rolled off from the index. 0001, 0002 and 
0003 all have the wrap flag set, so
the wrap flag is turned off for all three generations. The order 
is still valid and is 0001, 0002, 0003. If a
generation exceeds 2000 generations from the current generation, 
the wrap flag is not set. You should not
create large relative generation gaps which can lead to order 
problems.


I think I get it. I think this might be done via SLCM trying to 
keep generations of source(?) -- Pure guess.


Steve Thompson

On 5/29/2023 7:47 PM, Steve Thompson wrote:

Charles:

I think you are quite rightly confusing GDG ops with PDSE 
Generations.


And, I have not read up enough on PDSE generations to know how 
one deals with this in JCL. I just know they exist, but I've 
not had the need to use them (unless it is pent up and one I 
now how will realize the utility... :) ).


Steve Thompson

On 5/29/2023 5:56 PM, Charles Mills wrote:
1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member 
generations? If I want to reference or browse a PDSE 2 member 
generation other than the latest, is it possible to do so? 

Re: Two related member generation questions

[Steve Thompson]

Charles:

I think you are quite rightly confusing GDG ops with PDSE 
Generations.


And, I have not read up enough on PDSE generations to know how 
one deals with this in JCL. I just know they exist, but I've not 
had the need to use them (unless it is pent up and one I now how 
will realize the utility... :) ).


Steve Thompson

On 5/29/2023 5:56 PM, Charles Mills wrote:

1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations? If I 
want to reference or browse a PDSE 2 member generation other than the latest, 
is it possible to do so? Am I just missing the doc somewhere?

2. Is this not an error or at least an illogical statement in the JCL 
reference? Under DSNAME - Cataloged data set name it says

dsname(member)
Specifies the name of the permanent partitioned data set (PDS) or the 
partitioned data set extended (PDSE), and the name of a member within that data 
set. If the member does not exist and DISP=OLD or DISP=SHR is specified, the 
allocation will succeed, but the job will fail when the data set is opened for 
input. If the member does not exist and the data set is opened for output, the 
system will add the member to the data set.

member
1 to 8 alphanumeric or national characters, or a character X'C0'. The first 
character must be alphabetic, national, +, or -. If the first character is + or 
-, the member is a part of a generation data group.

dsname(generation)
Specifies the name of a generation data group (GDG) and the generation number 
(zero or a signed integer) of a generation data set within the GDG.

That member description is not right, is it? If the first character is numeric, 
+ or -, it's not a reference to a member of a PDS or PDSE at all -- it 
specifies a generation data set, right? Or is this support for member 
generations and I am not reading it correctly?

Also, member syntax has nothing to do with whether the dataset is cataloged, 
right? The syntax is exactly the same with a VOLSER reference or for a 
temporary dataset, right?

Charles

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Steve Smith]

"GDGs can be members of PDS or PDSE." -I can't even guess what you're
trying to say, but on the face of it, that's not only wrong, but absurd.

JCL provides no support at all for PDSE member generations.

Support for PDSE as a member* of a GDG was added in z/OS 2.1 or 2, iirc.
*(not to be confused with members of a PDS[E], but maybe they could have
tried harder not to be confusing).  So, you can have multiple generations
of a PDSE, each of which has multiple generations of its members.  Also of
note, while GDGs usually consist of "generations" of the same dataset,
there's no rule that says they must be.  I once had to spend quite a bit of
time removing from a utility program the assumption that all generations of
a GDG were "alike".

The documentation cited on (member) is about as confusifying as it possibly
could be.  To reiterate, members of a PDS[E} and "members" of a GDG have
nothing to do with each other; just the conflation confusion of the same
syntax in JCL, and the same terminology.  Eons ago, the parentheses had yet
another overload for some kind of ISAM thing, but at least they weren't
called "members".

sas

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lloyd Fuller]

I can answer one part of this.  GDGs can be members of PDS or PDSE.  This has 
been true for a long time.  The actual generated member name is different than 
for a GDG dataset.
Lloyd


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPad


On Monday, May 29, 2023, 5:56 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations? If I 
want to reference or browse a PDSE 2 member generation other than the latest, 
is it possible to do so? Am I just missing the doc somewhere?

2. Is this not an error or at least an illogical statement in the JCL 
reference? Under DSNAME - Cataloged data set name it says

dsname(member)
Specifies the name of the permanent partitioned data set (PDS) or the 
partitioned data set extended (PDSE), and the name of a member within that data 
set. If the member does not exist and DISP=OLD or DISP=SHR is specified, the 
allocation will succeed, but the job will fail when the data set is opened for 
input. If the member does not exist and the data set is opened for output, the 
system will add the member to the data set.

member
1 to 8 alphanumeric or national characters, or a character X'C0'. The first 
character must be alphabetic, national, +, or -. If the first character is + or 
-, the member is a part of a generation data group.

dsname(generation)
Specifies the name of a generation data group (GDG) and the generation number 
(zero or a signed integer) of a generation data set within the GDG.

That member description is not right, is it? If the first character is numeric, 
+ or -, it's not a reference to a member of a PDS or PDSE at all -- it 
specifies a generation data set, right? Or is this support for member 
generations and I am not reading it correctly?

Also, member syntax has nothing to do with whether the dataset is cataloged, 
right? The syntax is exactly the same with a VOLSER reference or for a 
temporary dataset, right?

Charles

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Two related member generation questions

[Charles Mills]

1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations? If I 
want to reference or browse a PDSE 2 member generation other than the latest, 
is it possible to do so? Am I just missing the doc somewhere?

2. Is this not an error or at least an illogical statement in the JCL 
reference? Under DSNAME - Cataloged data set name it says

dsname(member)
Specifies the name of the permanent partitioned data set (PDS) or the 
partitioned data set extended (PDSE), and the name of a member within that data 
set. If the member does not exist and DISP=OLD or DISP=SHR is specified, the 
allocation will succeed, but the job will fail when the data set is opened for 
input. If the member does not exist and the data set is opened for output, the 
system will add the member to the data set.

member
1 to 8 alphanumeric or national characters, or a character X'C0'. The first 
character must be alphabetic, national, +, or -. If the first character is + or 
-, the member is a part of a generation data group.

dsname(generation)
Specifies the name of a generation data group (GDG) and the generation number 
(zero or a signed integer) of a generation data set within the GDG.

That member description is not right, is it? If the first character is numeric, 
+ or -, it's not a reference to a member of a PDS or PDSE at all -- it 
specifies a generation data set, right? Or is this support for member 
generations and I am not reading it correctly?

Also, member syntax has nothing to do with whether the dataset is cataloged, 
right? The syntax is exactly the same with a VOLSER reference or for a 
temporary dataset, right?

Charles

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