Re: China blocking Wired?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Yo Joel! On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, joel jaeggli wrote: it's not a secret it's not part of some wierd anti terrorist measure which is inconsistently enforced for the purposes of obfuscation, it's just an FAA rule. DOT != FAA. If it is an FAA rule can you show us where it says that on the FAA web site: http://www.faa.gov/ Almost nothing I hear attributed to the FAA is really FAA policy. RGDS GARY - --- Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97701 g...@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLUL/CBmnRqz71OvMRAgDGAKCc9w+FyrKLmfC0X6SUPci7PIsb3gCfUxvM YvPp99gGy7vEuFZD2kYhIj4= =V7Kv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Gary E. Miller wrote: Yo Joel! On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, joel jaeggli wrote: it's not a secret it's not part of some wierd anti terrorist measure which is inconsistently enforced for the purposes of obfuscation, it's just an FAA rule. DOT != FAA. If it is an FAA rule can you show us where it says that on the FAA web site: http://www.faa.gov/ Almost nothing I hear attributed to the FAA is really FAA policy. You could have just googled up some background instead of assuming I am wrong. quote: The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is an agency of the United States Department of Transportation with authority to regulate and oversee all aspects of civil aviation in the U.S. (National Airworthiness Authority). The Federal Aviation Act of 1958 created the group under the name Federal Aviation Agency, and adopted its current name in 1967 when it became a part of the United States Department of Transportation. the report summarized in this ppt resulted in the rule. http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/ppt/systems/lithium%20bat%20060602.ppt The notable observation for cargo holds is: Halon 1301 is ineffective in suppressing a lithium battery fire RGDS GARY --- Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97701 g...@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Dave CROCKER wrote: Historically, inconsistencies from one US airport to another have been pretty common. It's really great fun to have a staffer at one airport firmly instruct me on how to avoid future problems at security, with what I carry and how I pack it, given conflicting, firm instruction that I'll get a few months later at another airport. Here's an example, from my personal repertoire: How many batteries is acceptable for you to carry? Is it the same at every airport? How can yo find out the answer? that's one of those questions you ask the DOT. http://phmsa.dot.gov/portal/site/PHMSA/menuitem.ebdc7a8a7e39f2e55cf2031050248a0c/?vgnextoid=24e4ffc638ef6110VgnVCM101ecb7898RCRDvgnextchannel=8fd9f08df5f3f010VgnVCM108355a8c0RCRDvgnextfmt=print or for that matter tsa... http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html it's not a secret it's not part of some wierd anti terrorist measure which is inconsistently enforced for the purposes of obfuscation, it's just an FAA rule. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Actually, they have world-class performers for the full range of musical instruments. non-musical too ... Jorge ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
It was all a big mistake. Someone in the Chinese govt decided that they wanted the entire country to have 'wireless Internet' by 2010. Someone made a mistake and thought they had asked for a 'Wired-less Internet'. On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.com wrote: According to this article (links to Wired): http://snurl.com/u1gr0 Wired Magazine was or is being blocked by the Chinese national firewall, and they don't know why. Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- -- New Website: http://hallambaker.com/ View Quantum of Stupid podcasts, Tuesday and Thursday each week, http://quantumofstupid.com/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
A New York Times article posted this afternoon may be of interest to readers of this thread: Google, Citing Cyber Attack, Threatens to Exit China. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/asia/13beijing.html?hp Google said that it had found 'a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China.' Original source: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html -- Sam ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
This is all being overtaken by events. http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/01/12/google.china/index.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/chinese-internet-activists-applaud-google-1866551.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8455712.stm http://publicaddress.net/6413#post6413 Regards Marshall On Jan 12, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: It was all a big mistake. Someone in the Chinese govt decided that they wanted the entire country to have 'wireless Internet' by 2010. Someone made a mistake and thought they had asked for a 'Wired-less Internet'. On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.com wrote: According to this article (links to Wired): http://snurl.com/u1gr0 Wired Magazine was or is being blocked by the Chinese national firewall, and they don't know why. Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- -- New Website: http://hallambaker.com/ View Quantum of Stupid podcasts, Tuesday and Thursday each week, http://quantumofstupid.com/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Dave CROCKER wrote: Methinks you are implicitly suggesting that the IETF's pages for a site should include some getting along in the site's country guidance as an on-going requirement. Methinks this is an excellent idea. Dave, I think that this is a *very good* idea, no matter where were are going! Ron ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Hi, I've been to China a few times, entering 2 different airports, and personally I've never had any issues with immigration. It's always been fast and without hassle. No what-are-you-doing-here type of questions. No look-into-the-camera. No put-your-finger-here. Only a quick look at the passport and a Ok :) And, no checking of the luggage or questions regarding what stuff I'm carrying. At least once I've had a couple of lap-tops with me. Regards, Christer From: Spencer Dawkins spen...@wonderhamster.org To: Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.com, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com Reply-to: spen...@wonderhamster.org Subject: Re: China blocking Wired? X-RSN: 1/0/933/11208/49983 X-HREF: http://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6rid=49k1=933k2=49983 I try not to follow up to postings on this topic, but since I can comment on specifics... Many of us have been to China multiple times. I am not aware of anyone who has been granted a business or professional visa, and who has gone and behaved professionally, having nearly the problems with entry or exit that have been typical of the US in recent years (even returning US citizens). I've encountered some long lines, bad multilingual signage, and miscellaneous confusion on occasion, but China clearly has no monopoly on those. For example: As I understand it, one is allowed to bring only one camera and one computer, not two of each. Will this affect camera-and- computer loving IETFers? Possibly, if it's still true. Does the camera in your cell phone count against the quota? How about the one built in a Macbook? Nope. I entered China in November (Shanghai, for an IPv6 transition workshop the week before IETF 76) with the same two computers that I usually carry to IETF meetings - my work laptop, and an ASUS netbook that I use to drive projectors (which also has a webcam built in), and a cell phone that has a camera built-in, along with my camera. I was admitted to China with no discussion of any of these items. Past performance is not an indicator of future topics of interest, but that's the way it went. Thanks, Spencer, who is amazed that the lines to enter the US from Matamoros are longer than the lines to enter China in either Hong Kong or Shanghai... and move more slowly, even for US citizens! ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
I've lost count of the number of times I've been to China (somewhere in the teens), and I'm sure that there are people on this list who've visited China many more times than that. I've entered and left China by air, by car (via Hong Kong), and by train (also via Hong Kong). I've never once had a problem with either immigration or leaving, or obtaining a visa. I've never once had my bags searched on either entry or exit, except perhaps for the normal carry-on security check, which is no different from anywhere else in the world. Frankly, I've encountered more process when entering Japan than when entering China. To get a visa, I recommend using a visa service such as CIBT (but there are many others), which isn't inexpensive, but makes the process relatively simple. Many employer's travel departments have agencies in place, so check with your travel agent. Dean had a question about currency conversion when leaving China. Years ago, you had to show your receipts for purchased Yuan when converting back to dollars; however, that hasn't been the case for a while now. Cheers, Andy On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Christer Holmberg christer.holmb...@ericsson.com wrote: Hi, I've been to China a few times, entering 2 different airports, and personally I've never had any issues with immigration. It's always been fast and without hassle. No what-are-you-doing-here type of questions. No look-into-the-camera. No put-your-finger-here. Only a quick look at the passport and a Ok :) And, no checking of the luggage or questions regarding what stuff I'm carrying. At least once I've had a couple of lap-tops with me. Regards, Christer From: Spencer Dawkins spen...@wonderhamster.org To: Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.com, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com Reply-to: spen...@wonderhamster.org Subject: Re: China blocking Wired? X-RSN: 1/0/933/11208/49983 X-HREF: http://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6rid=49k1=933k2=49983 I try not to follow up to postings on this topic, but since I can comment on specifics... Many of us have been to China multiple times. I am not aware of anyone who has been granted a business or professional visa, and who has gone and behaved professionally, having nearly the problems with entry or exit that have been typical of the US in recent years (even returning US citizens). I've encountered some long lines, bad multilingual signage, and miscellaneous confusion on occasion, but China clearly has no monopoly on those. For example: As I understand it, one is allowed to bring only one camera and one computer, not two of each. Will this affect camera-and- computer loving IETFers? Possibly, if it's still true. Does the camera in your cell phone count against the quota? How about the one built in a Macbook? Nope. I entered China in November (Shanghai, for an IPv6 transition workshop the week before IETF 76) with the same two computers that I usually carry to IETF meetings - my work laptop, and an ASUS netbook that I use to drive projectors (which also has a webcam built in), and a cell phone that has a camera built-in, along with my camera. I was admitted to China with no discussion of any of these items. Past performance is not an indicator of future topics of interest, but that's the way it went. Thanks, Spencer, who is amazed that the lines to enter the US from Matamoros are longer than the lines to enter China in either Hong Kong or Shanghai... and move more slowly, even for US citizens! ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Dean: The first time I went to China was in 1998; I have been there several times a year most years since. I bring with me a bible, which is likely to be a lot more threatening to a communist government than a thousand naked ladies dancing in the airport, and encryption software (Cisco VPN and GPG), which at least at one time was technically illegal in the country. I don't make an issue of it, and in my experience they have not either. I'll tell you the one uncomfortable experience I have had in China. This is June 1999. I was speaking at a conference called ChinaInet, and was asked to speak about the security of the Internet. In the talk, I mentioned cryptographic authentication as the strongest means we had to identify a communicant. At the word cryptographic, the translator stopped talking, and picked up again on the next slide. Following that talk, I was ushered to a room where I was given an opportunity to rest without contact with the other people at the conference. In my next session, I had a different translator (supplied by a government agency) and the audience was not permitted to ask questions. However, I was able to participate in the remainder of the conference without problem, and have never had an issue since. I suspect that someone had to find out whether what I said was OK, and since I was neither advocating the use of encryption (authentication ! = encryption) and was not criticizing the government (which is the one real no-no), it blew over. I use encryption every time I travel, including to China. I have never had an issue doing so, including trips to France, China, Russia, and Bulgaria. If you're concerned about the contents of your disk drive, you have a few options. Obviously, make a backup before you leave. You can leave your computer at home and bring a few files on a USB key. You can wipe the drive and bring only things you don't mind being seen. You can use filevault/pgp/whatever. Take the steps you consider appropriate. Please feel free to ask questions. When you are given answers, please feel free to listen to the experience of people who have been to the country. Please do not feel free to crawl the walls calling people who have more experience than you naive etc. The PRC is not the US, for sure. Finns and Swedes will tell you that the US can be kind of scary at times. Get used to it. People from the PRC don't have horns. Really. Fred On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Dean Willis wrote: On Jan 11, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: Dean, Get real. When have you EVER had any reading material inspected by ANY authority ANYWHERE in the world? OK, so I am not aware of your particular reading habits and yes, I *can* imagine that *some* material *might* attract the attention of customs officials in any given part of the world, but it would have to be pretty extreme and you would have to literally wave it in front of their faces. WIRED Magazine does NOT in any way fall into the sort of material I am imagining, and I think you know that. That's a pretty naive position, Ole. I've had training manuals confiscated at the Canadian border, had my laptop data searched in a couple of places, had my bags detained for setting off chemical detectors (although returned after secondary searching), had a science-fiction paper-back book confiscated (apparently the cover image was pornographic, although they didn't bother to arrest me, and thankfully, I had already finished the book), and probably quite a few other events over the years. I've even had the sorts of jobs where everything on my person, including papers, got inspected by guards when I was going in and out of the workplace each day. I'm really surprised you haven't had events like this yourself. We should obviously obey the laws of the country in which we have our meeting, but dreaming up worst case scenarios isn't helpful. Really. Sometimes it is hard for outsiders to understand those laws you so blithely say we should obey. Laws can and do catch people by surprise. One of the most effective ways to prevent surprise is by as king what if questions. Do you not think it is reasonable to subject the real-world to the same sort of scenario analysis that we would demand of a transport protocol? -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Yeap, getting in/out China is pretty easy and fast. I once had to be in Beijing for family emergency reason, and got the visa in Beijing airport. Paid a little more, but it was pretty smooth. The airport search is no more than what we have here in US. Everything is OK. Nobody is going to bite. :-) Cheers, - Ping On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Andrew G. Malis agma...@gmail.com wrote: I've lost count of the number of times I've been to China (somewhere in the teens), and I'm sure that there are people on this list who've visited China many more times than that. I've entered and left China by air, by car (via Hong Kong), and by train (also via Hong Kong). I've never once had a problem with either immigration or leaving, or obtaining a visa. I've never once had my bags searched on either entry or exit, except perhaps for the normal carry-on security check, which is no different from anywhere else in the world. Frankly, I've encountered more process when entering Japan than when entering China. To get a visa, I recommend using a visa service such as CIBT (but there are many others), which isn't inexpensive, but makes the process relatively simple. Many employer's travel departments have agencies in place, so check with your travel agent. Dean had a question about currency conversion when leaving China. Years ago, you had to show your receipts for purchased Yuan when converting back to dollars; however, that hasn't been the case for a while now. Cheers, Andy On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Christer Holmberg christer.holmb...@ericsson.com wrote: Hi, I've been to China a few times, entering 2 different airports, and personally I've never had any issues with immigration. It's always been fast and without hassle. No what-are-you-doing-here type of questions. No look-into-the-camera. No put-your-finger-here. Only a quick look at the passport and a Ok :) And, no checking of the luggage or questions regarding what stuff I'm carrying. At least once I've had a couple of lap-tops with me. Regards, Christer From: Spencer Dawkins spen...@wonderhamster.org To: Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.com, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com Reply-to: spen...@wonderhamster.org Subject: Re: China blocking Wired? X-RSN: 1/0/933/11208/49983 X-HREF: http://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6rid=49k1=933k2=49983 I try not to follow up to postings on this topic, but since I can comment on specifics... Many of us have been to China multiple times. I am not aware of anyone who has been granted a business or professional visa, and who has gone and behaved professionally, having nearly the problems with entry or exit that have been typical of the US in recent years (even returning US citizens). I've encountered some long lines, bad multilingual signage, and miscellaneous confusion on occasion, but China clearly has no monopoly on those. For example: As I understand it, one is allowed to bring only one camera and one computer, not two of each. Will this affect camera-and- computer loving IETFers? Possibly, if it's still true. Does the camera in your cell phone count against the quota? How about the one built in a Macbook? Nope. I entered China in November (Shanghai, for an IPv6 transition workshop the week before IETF 76) with the same two computers that I usually carry to IETF meetings - my work laptop, and an ASUS netbook that I use to drive projectors (which also has a webcam built in), and a cell phone that has a camera built-in, along with my camera. I was admitted to China with no discussion of any of these items. Past performance is not an indicator of future topics of interest, but that's the way it went. Thanks, Spencer, who is amazed that the lines to enter the US from Matamoros are longer than the lines to enter China in either Hong Kong or Shanghai... and move more slowly, even for US citizens! ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On 1/12/2010 1:24 PM, Fred Baker wrote: People from the PRC don't have horns. Really. Actually, they have world-class performers for the full range of musical instruments. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
At 10:32 PM -0600 1/10/10, Dean Willis wrote: Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. snarkI cannot imagine going to an IETF meeting and not being able to read Wired magazine while I am there./snark --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
What China blocks or doesn't block is quite irrelevant to what kind of service we can expect on the IETF meeting network in Beijing, as has previously been carefully explained. We have a document that has been humorously referred to as the Host Requirements Document. Enough said. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Paul Hoffman wrote: At 10:32 PM -0600 1/10/10, Dean Willis wrote: Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. snarkI cannot imagine going to an IETF meeting and not being able to read Wired magazine while I am there./snark --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On Jan 11, 2010, at 11:18 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: At 10:32 PM -0600 1/10/10, Dean Willis wrote: Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. snarkI cannot imagine going to an IETF meeting and not being able to read Wired magazine while I am there./snark So, are there likely to be problems with paper copies of the magazine at customs? Is it available at English-language newsstands? What other sorts of publications should our attendees leave at home for fear of violating national standards with which me might not be familiar? Are thre likelto be be digital media searches of the sort feared at US and UK customs checkpoints? I suppose DVDs with copies of Pure Heart. Clear Mind episodes would be right out. We wouldn't want to end up like this guy: http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-action/end-persection-falun-gong-practitioner What other land mines are we likely to step on by accident? Who is going to provide training to the community to keep these sorts of incidents from happening? Sorry, I seem to be just chock full of snarky questions today. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On 1/11/2010 10:11 AM, Dean Willis wrote: What other sorts of publications should our attendees leave at home for fear of violating national standards with which me might not be familiar? This sort of pre-reality schadenfreude can't possibly serve any constructive purpose. Really, it would be nice to have this list spared from such inventive, inflammatory fantasies. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
--On Monday, January 11, 2010 12:11 -0600 Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.com wrote: ... What other sorts of publications should our attendees leave at home for fear of violating national standards with which me might not be familiar? Are thre likelto be be digital media searches of the sort feared at US and UK customs checkpoints? ... Dean, Many of us have been to China multiple times. I am not aware of anyone who has been granted a business or professional visa, and who has gone and behaved professionally, having nearly the problems with entry or exit that have been typical of the US in recent years (even returning US citizens). I've encountered some long lines, bad multilingual signage, and miscellaneous confusion on occasion, but China clearly has no monopoly on those. However, if you are feeling this threatened about the situation, I would encourage you to make comments on your visa application that are harshly critical of the Chinese government. The visa will probably be denied on that basis (almost any government that requires that visas be issued prior to arrival would do the same thing), and then you would get to complain about being excluded from the meeting -- that would be lots more fun than making things up to be frightened about. john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Dean, Get real. When have you EVER had any reading material inspected by ANY authority ANYWHERE in the world? OK, so I am not aware of your particular reading habits and yes, I *can* imagine that *some* material *might* attract the attention of customs officials in any given part of the world, but it would have to be pretty extreme and you would have to literally wave it in front of their faces. WIRED Magazine does NOT in any way fall into the sort of material I am imagining, and I think you know that. We should obviously obey the laws of the country in which we have our meeting, but dreaming up worst case scenarios isn't helpful. Really. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Dean Willis wrote: So, are there likely to be problems with paper copies of the magazine at customs? Is it available at English-language newsstands? What other sorts of publications should our attendees leave at home for fear of violating national standards with which me might not be familiar? Are thre likelto be be digital media searches of the sort feared at US and UK customs checkpoints? I suppose DVDs with copies of Pure Heart. Clear Mind episodes would be right out. We wouldn't want to end up like this guy: http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-action/end-persection-falun-gong-practitioner What other land mines are we likely to step on by accident? Who is going to provide training to the community to keep these sorts of incidents from happening? Sorry, I seem to be just chock full of snarky questions today. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:41 PM, John C Klensin wrote: Many of us have been to China multiple times. I am not aware of anyone who has been granted a business or professional visa, and who has gone and behaved professionally, having nearly the problems with entry or exit that have been typical of the US in recent years (even returning US citizens). I've encountered some long lines, bad multilingual signage, and miscellaneous confusion on occasion, but China clearly has no monopoly on those. Thanks, John! I feel very reassured. How about some practical guidance for the folks who haven't been there multiple times, beyond Behave professionally and don't do anything stupid. We have lots of people who don't know they're being stupid because in their world, what they're doing is absolutely normal and they have absolutely no expectation of consequences. These sorts of things can be subtle. A friend's brother was arrested in the UAE last year for possession of melatonin, which is a common over-the-counter sleep therapy in most of the world but is apparently considered a major narcotic in their airport (although you can supposedly buy it OTC in stores in-country). He was very surprised at this, having never even thought it might be an issue. If we were meeting in Dubai, I'd expect medications to be a major problem. But we're not meeting in in Dubai, but China, and China quite likely has equivalent surprises in store. Quite possibly, neither you nor I have ever run afoul of them due to a combination of luck and discretion (which I occasionally DO exercise). But also quite possibly, they'll trip up some of our colleagues. Unlike the US, whose border- liabilities are fairly well understood by IETFers, I'm pretty sure we generally don't know what the likely problems are in China. We need to find out, and we need to educate our community about them. If we (the IETF) can't even figure out what China is doing to Internet traffic, how are we supposed to understand the laws that aren't in our area of expertise? If they think Wired Magazine is dangerous enough that it must be blocked, chances are that they'd find the contents of my home PC appalling (I do too, it runs Windows XP). How about what's on Alice's laptop? For example: As I understand it, one is allowed to bring only one camera and one computer, not two of each. Will this affect camera-and- computer loving IETFers? Possibly, if it's still true. Does the camera in your cell phone count against the quota? How about the one built in a Macbook? I'm much more concerned about the prohibition that goes Printed matter, films, photos, gramophone records, cinematographic films, loaded recording tapes and video- tapes,compact discs (videoaudio), storage media for computers and other articles which are detrimental to the political, economic, cultural and moral interests of China. That's pretty nebulous. It reads to me like leave behind all personal digital media, just in case which is what I generally do. I travel in a fairly sanitized mode, for numerous reasons. Will the average IETFer do this? If not, what, if anything, is likely to surprise them? How many IETFers are going to lose their currency-exchange receipts and consequently be unable to legally turn their excess yuan back into dollars? Or is this still even a problem? -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On 2010-01-12 07:11, Dean Willis wrote: On Jan 11, 2010, at 11:18 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: At 10:32 PM -0600 1/10/10, Dean Willis wrote: Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. snarkI cannot imagine going to an IETF meeting and not being able to read Wired magazine while I am there./snark So, are there likely to be problems with paper copies of the magazine at customs? Is it available at English-language newsstands? Well, it is just as relevant to suggest that you don't take the last Economist for 2009 to Malaysia for the next APRICOT meeting (naked Adam and Eve on the front cover) and don't carry pseudoephedrine tablets on your next vacation in New Zealand. Oh, and don't travel to the Anaheim IETF from Nigeria. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On Jan 11, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: Dean, Get real. When have you EVER had any reading material inspected by ANY authority ANYWHERE in the world? OK, so I am not aware of your particular reading habits and yes, I *can* imagine that *some* material *might* attract the attention of customs officials in any given part of the world, but it would have to be pretty extreme and you would have to literally wave it in front of their faces. WIRED Magazine does NOT in any way fall into the sort of material I am imagining, and I think you know that. That's a pretty naive position, Ole. I've had training manuals confiscated at the Canadian border, had my laptop data searched in a couple of places, had my bags detained for setting off chemical detectors (although returned after secondary searching), had a science- fiction paper-back book confiscated (apparently the cover image was pornographic, although they didn't bother to arrest me, and thankfully, I had already finished the book), and probably quite a few other events over the years. I've even had the sorts of jobs where everything on my person, including papers, got inspected by guards when I was going in and out of the workplace each day. I'm really surprised you haven't had events like this yourself. We should obviously obey the laws of the country in which we have our meeting, but dreaming up worst case scenarios isn't helpful. Really. Sometimes it is hard for outsiders to understand those laws you so blithely say we should obey. Laws can and do catch people by surprise. One of the most effective ways to prevent surprise is by as king what if questions. Do you not think it is reasonable to subject the real- world to the same sort of scenario analysis that we would demand of a transport protocol? -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On 1/11/2010 11:52 AM, Dean Willis wrote: How about some practical guidance for the folks who haven't been there multiple times, beyond Behave professionally and don't do anything stupid. We have lots of people who don't know they're being stupid because in their world, what they're doing is absolutely normal and they have absolutely no expectation of consequences. Methinks you are implicitly suggesting that the IETF's pages for a site should include some getting along in the site's country guidance as an on-going requirement. Methinks this is an excellent idea. Happily, Doing Business in... types of books are common, as is online information. For example: Chinese Etiquette http://www.goingtochina.com/misc/chinese_etiquette.htm China (especially see the Appearance, Behavior and Communications sections) http://www.cyborlink.com/besite/china.htm Chinese Culture http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/businessculture.html But also quite possibly, they'll trip up some of our colleagues. Unlike the US, whose border-liabilities are fairly well understood by IETFers, Probably not as well understood as we might think, and less so, now, with the newly-explicit policy of being unpredictable. Historically, inconsistencies from one US airport to another have been pretty common. It's really great fun to have a staffer at one airport firmly instruct me on how to avoid future problems at security, with what I carry and how I pack it, given conflicting, firm instruction that I'll get a few months later at another airport. Here's an example, from my personal repertoire: How many batteries is acceptable for you to carry? Is it the same at every airport? How can yo find out the answer? If we (the IETF) can't even figure out what China is doing to Internet traffic, how are we supposed to understand the laws that aren't in our area of expertise? Go to pick someone up at San Francisco International, at International Arrivals. There are signs that shout that this is only for immediate pickup. There is a solid line, away from the curb. Cross that line, and stop at the curb, with the passenger not already standing there -- that is, if you expect to wait a (very) short time -- and you will get a ticket. Not a warning, but a ticket. There is nothing in the signage to tell you this. Not knowing local laws is a pervasive problem. On 1/11/2010 11:55 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: Oh, and don't travel to the Anaheim IETF from Nigeria. Let's be fair. Traveling to Orange County even from San Francisco is pretty risky, if they find out you are from Northern California. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On 2010-01-11, at 14:52, Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.com wrote: Unlike the US, whose border-liabilities are fairly well understood by IETFers, Seriously? I cross the US-Canada border all the time, and I'm a citizen of both countries, and I can still barely keep up with the constant, apparently random revocations niggly little details of local conventions at each crossing since last I crossed there. That people whose native language isn't English are totally flummoxed by the US rules is amply demonstrated to me every time I enter the US. Not to mention US citizens who cannot _believe_ that these rules apply to them. I don't want to get into a (IMO fatuous) debate about which geopolitical arrangement is more troubling than others. I merely want to point out that it's just nonsense to use the current US conventions as an example of those obviously well understood. -- Andrew Sullivan a...@shinkuro.com ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Dean, Oddly, I've had none of the experiences you've had and I've been known to travel a bit (1.6 million miles on United, top frequent flier honors on 3 carriers (UAL, NWA, JAL) simultaneously, etc.), including to quite a few places where folks from the US weren't particularly popular. The only place I've had secondary screening has been in the US (most recently last week flying from IAD to LAX). The only country in which I've had to even power on equipment to demonstrate it isn't a prop has been the US. I've never had anything confiscated. Well, OK, I did have a nail cuticle clipper (with a 1/4 inch blade) confiscated in Singapore but somehow I was able to survive. This really isn't that hard. Unless you have diplomatic or some other treaty-based immunity, you are subject to the laws of the country you are in and it is your responsibility to be aware of those laws. Some countries follow the rule of law more than others and some countries are more corrupt than others. China is better than some, worse than others. That's reality. If you don't like this, don't go. Regards, -drc On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Dean Willis wrote: On Jan 11, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: Dean, Get real. When have you EVER had any reading material inspected by ANY authority ANYWHERE in the world? OK, so I am not aware of your particular reading habits and yes, I *can* imagine that *some* material *might* attract the attention of customs officials in any given part of the world, but it would have to be pretty extreme and you would have to literally wave it in front of their faces. WIRED Magazine does NOT in any way fall into the sort of material I am imagining, and I think you know that. That's a pretty naive position, Ole. I've had training manuals confiscated at the Canadian border, had my laptop data searched in a couple of places, had my bags detained for setting off chemical detectors (although returned after secondary searching), had a science-fiction paper-back book confiscated (apparently the cover image was pornographic, although they didn't bother to arrest me, and thankfully, I had already finished the book), and probably quite a few other events over the years. I've even had the sorts of jobs where everything on my person, including papers, got inspected by guards when I was going in and out of the workplace each day. I'm really surprised you haven't had events like this yourself. We should obviously obey the laws of the country in which we have our meeting, but dreaming up worst case scenarios isn't helpful. Really. Sometimes it is hard for outsiders to understand those laws you so blithely say we should obey. Laws can and do catch people by surprise. One of the most effective ways to prevent surprise is by as king what if questions. Do you not think it is reasonable to subject the real-world to the same sort of scenario analysis that we would demand of a transport protocol? -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On Jan 11, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: Seriously? I cross the US-Canada border all the time, and I'm a citizen of both countries, and I can still barely keep up with the constant, apparently random revocations niggly little details of local conventions at each crossing since last I crossed there. I'm in the same situation and I've frequently got dogs with me, and the understanding of what's okay and what's not varies not only by which border crossing I'm using but also by which agent - they have problems keeping up with policies and especially policy changes, too. That said, I've got a very good idea of what to expect and how it will go. In all these years I've only been really surprised once, and it was by a Canadian customs agent, not an American. What Dean said seems tautologically true to me, at least for people who travel. On the other hand, I've found that a policy of Don't be a jerk to the people in the booth has been sufficient even in places that were completely unfamiliar to me and is a reasonable substitute for specific knowledge. Melinda ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
On Jan 11, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: Methinks you are implicitly suggesting that the IETF's pages for a site should include some getting along in the site's country guidance as an on-going requirement. Methinks this is an excellent idea. Happily, Doing Business in... types of books are common, as is online information. For example: Chinese Etiquette http://www.goingtochina.com/misc/chinese_etiquette.htm China (especially see the Appearance, Behavior and Communications sections) http://www.cyborlink.com/besite/china.htm Chinese Culture http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/businessculture.html Excellent idea. Specifically, the IETF-type information should be focussed on those things that are likely to impact IETFers, as opposed to conventional business-folks, at a given destination. We aren't average business travelers: We dress more casually, carry much more electronic equipment, often sport unusual haircuts, have a broader array of medical conditions and food issues, have potentially more diverse reading habits, and so on. We're also a lot more likely to form in clusters that engage in loud debates about politically- sensitive topics. And obviously, we aren't ordinary tourists. How many ordinary tourists show up with a backpack full of wireless access points? Is that legal in China? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure one or more of us will do it. And frankly, we're probably more blasé about international travel than well prepared business people might be. The pickpockets in Paris had an absolute field day with IETFers. I'm sure they were quite grateful for our lack of preparedness, relaxed-fit casual pants pockets, richly loaded wallets and expensive cell phones. We seem to have an assumption that every place is pretty much like every other place, they're all happy to see us, and one hotel conference room is the same as all the others. The risks that a typical IETFer might encounter in Beijing are probably different from what you or I or Ole might encounter, given our ages, fairly conservative appearances, and past travel experiences. I think it might be very useful to think through the possibilities and see if we can pre-empt some of them. I did do a quick scan on the references you thoughtfully provided above, and I found the Appearance, Behavior, and Communications) reference especially interesting, because I just can't imagine a pack of IETFers complying with that set of rules. This is starting to sound like it might be a good Wiki project. Who knows, maybe the IETF can collaborate to produce some useful IPR that isn't an RFC ;-)? -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
I try not to follow up to postings on this topic, but since I can comment on specifics... Many of us have been to China multiple times. I am not aware of anyone who has been granted a business or professional visa, and who has gone and behaved professionally, having nearly the problems with entry or exit that have been typical of the US in recent years (even returning US citizens). I've encountered some long lines, bad multilingual signage, and miscellaneous confusion on occasion, but China clearly has no monopoly on those. For example: As I understand it, one is allowed to bring only one camera and one computer, not two of each. Will this affect camera-and- computer loving IETFers? Possibly, if it's still true. Does the camera in your cell phone count against the quota? How about the one built in a Macbook? Nope. I entered China in November (Shanghai, for an IPv6 transition workshop the week before IETF 76) with the same two computers that I usually carry to IETF meetings - my work laptop, and an ASUS netbook that I use to drive projectors (which also has a webcam built in), and a cell phone that has a camera built-in, along with my camera. I was admitted to China with no discussion of any of these items. Past performance is not an indicator of future topics of interest, but that's the way it went. Thanks, Spencer, who is amazed that the lines to enter the US from Matamoros are longer than the lines to enter China in either Hong Kong or Shanghai... and move more slowly, even for US citizens! ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Hi, I just tried in Beijing China, everything is fine while accessing www.wired.com Thanks, Zhen On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.comwrote: According to this article (links to Wired): http://snurl.com/u1gr0 Wired Magazine was or is being blocked by the Chinese national firewall, and they don't know why. Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: China blocking Wired?
Title: Re: China blocking Wired? At 11:31 AM +0800 1/12/10, Zhen Cao wrote: Hi, I just tried in Beijing China, everything is fine while accessing www.wired.com That doesn't mean everything is fine: Dean can still come up with a list of hypothetical problems that would affect the China meeting (but could, of course, never affect meetings in other locations). --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
China blocking Wired?
According to this article (links to Wired): http://snurl.com/u1gr0 Wired Magazine was or is being blocked by the Chinese national firewall, and they don't know why. Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: China blocking Wired?
I am from China. just test it in Chengdu, Sichuan Province, China. Uh-huh, except that you pinged the wrong address: should be www.wired.com (58.97.45.35). it is the website's problem. the result is below: - Microsoft Windows XP [版本 5.1.2600] (C) 版权所有 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp. C:\Documents and Settings\healthping snurl.com Pinging snurl.com [75.126.161.224] with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 75.126.161.224: bytes=32 time=254ms TTL=47 Reply from 75.126.161.224: bytes=32 time=259ms TTL=47 Reply from 75.126.161.224: bytes=32 time=251ms TTL=47 Reply from 75.126.161.224: bytes=32 time=258ms TTL=47 Ping statistics for 75.126.161.224: Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss), Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: Minimum = 251ms, Maximum = 259ms, Average = 255ms C:\Documents and Settings\health - Original Message - From: Dean Willis dean.wil...@softarmor.com To: IETF-Discussion list ietf@ietf.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 12:32 PM Subject: China blocking Wired? According to this article (links to Wired): http://snurl.com/u1gr0 Wired Magazine was or is being blocked by the Chinese national firewall, and they don't know why. Very interesting, from an IETF-hosting perspective. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
