Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
I agree with you SM, politics and considering countries names in that way, that is out of scope of IETF. Comments below, AB On 9/8/13, SM s...@resistor.net wrote: At 07:07 08-09-2013, Jorge Amodio wrote: You mean like Pakistan, Iran, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia There were people from Pakistan who participated in the IETF. I recall an email exchange where a person from that country received an unpleasant comment from someone who is part of the IETF leadership. That is rude behavior, which I may experienced in IETF. In my opinion a discussion about Country X or Country Y would take the thread downhill. It can also have a chilling effect. I totally agree, by having more participants from all world's countries, makes the IETF more diverse, and by silence to such rude behavior means we are welcoming less diversity. At 05:14 08-09-2013, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: Another worrying aspect of [censored] is that it is named after[censored]. They seem to be looking to make [censored] out of us. They certainly seem to be endorsing [censored]. What should we think if the [censored] had a similar program codenamed [censored]? It would not look good. It is not good behavior if IETF just watches lists and does not make mentoring to its participants old/new comers. AB Regards, -sm
Equably when it comes to privacy
Hi David, At 16:10 06-09-2013, David Morris wrote: Seriously though, NSA makes a nice villan, but much of our hardware is manufactured in counties with fewer restraints than the NSA when it comes the right to privacy, etc. Wouldn't suprise me that my major brand router has sniffers from more than one country's security agency. The right to privacy is mentioned in the above. From http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=MOTIONreference=B7-2013-0342language=EN whereas the US legal system does not ensure the protection of non-US citizens, such as EU citizens; whereas, for instance, the protection provided by the Fourth Amendment applies only to US citizens and not to EU citizens or other non-US citizens; There aren't any villains in all this. There is a question of whether the company taking the data will value each of its customers equably when it comes to privacy. It doesn't seem so. Regards, -sm
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 3:21 AM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote: Hi David, At 16:10 06-09-2013, David Morris wrote: Seriously though, NSA makes a nice villan, but much of our hardware is manufactured in counties with fewer restraints than the NSA when it comes the right to privacy, etc. Wouldn't suprise me that my major brand router has sniffers from more than one country's security agency. The right to privacy is mentioned in the above. From http://www.europarl.europa.eu/**sides/getDoc.do?type=MOTION** reference=B7-2013-0342**language=ENhttp://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=MOTIONreference=B7-2013-0342language=EN whereas the US legal system does not ensure the protection of non-US citizens, such as EU citizens; whereas, for instance, the protection provided by the Fourth Amendment applies only to US citizens and not to EU citizens or other non-US citizens; There aren't any villains in all this. There is a question of whether the company taking the data will value each of its customers equably when it comes to privacy. It doesn't seem so. The other countries concerned did not take the lead in establishing a network of secret prisons where hundreds of prisoners were illegally held without charge. As the US did under President Bush. The other countries concerned did not employ torture as the US did under President Bush. Another worrying aspect of BULLRUN is that it is named after a victory for the confederate side in the US civil war. They seem to be looking to make slaves out of us. They certainly seem to be endorsing a racist cause. What should we think if the German intelligence service had a similar program codenamed AUSCHWITZ? We know from the history of Snowden that the NSA has lax internal controls. They allowed a person who wasn't even an employee access to this information. They have since chased Snowden off to Russia where Putin professes to be concerned that he does not leak any more information. Could this be because Putin has infiltrated one or more Snowdens into the NSA himself and does not want to see the intel gathered to date be compromised or because he thinks he can probably get it out of Snowden if the GRU can find the right stripper. There might be other agencies that have compromised the Internet to the same extent as the NSA. Or the others might just find it is easier to free ride of the NSA work product which Russia and China and Iran are all consuming through their own moles. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
The other countries concerned did not employ torture as the US did under President Bush. You mean like Pakistan, Iran, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia -J
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
Probably best if we keep the politics off the IETF list. Noel
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Noel Chiappa j...@mercury.lcs.mit.eduwrote: Probably best if we keep the politics off the IETF list. Noel I grew up in politics. There is a method to my approach here. I know that the IETF list is watched. I am making it clear that I am a personal political opponent of Clapper and Alexander and linking the NSA activities to the racist wing of the GOP. Now imagine the political fallout if the NSA or FBI attempt to pressure me again like during the cryptowars. That is not a risk I expect a low level employee is going to take. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Jorge Amodio jmamo...@gmail.com wrote: The other countries concerned did not employ torture as the US did under President Bush. You mean like Pakistan, Iran, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia My original comment was limited to adversaries with potential intercept capability. If it is the case that we have to be concerned about a widespread intercept capability by those countries in the US then the intelligence agencies have completely failed in their mission to defend NATO countries. China on the other hand, well we all outsource manufacture there. Of course there are despotic regimes that also use torture. The point I was making is that alone in the free world the US administration decided to sanction war crimes and it appears from their choice of codenames that the people in charge of this program might be the type of people who put confederate flags on their cars. So 'just trust us we are the good guys' does not have the same rhetorical force that it once did. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
On Sunday, September 08, 2013 11:13:44 Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: ... might be the type of people who put confederate flags on their cars. ... Since Bull Run is the Union name for the battle, probably not (It'd have been Manassas from a Confederate perspective). Scott K P. S. We are rather far afield for the IETF list, so I'm not going to jump in on this particular angle further.
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
At 07:07 08-09-2013, Jorge Amodio wrote: You mean like Pakistan, Iran, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia There were people from Pakistan who participated in the IETF. I recall an email exchange where a person from that country received an unpleasant comment from someone who is part of the IETF leadership. In my opinion a discussion about Country X or Country Y would take the thread downhill. It can also have a chilling effect. At 05:14 08-09-2013, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: Another worrying aspect of [censored] is that it is named after[censored]. They seem to be looking to make [censored] out of us. They certainly seem to be endorsing [censored]. What should we think if the [censored] had a similar program codenamed [censored]? It would not look good. Regards, -sm
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
On 9/8/13 10:37 AM, SM wrote: At 07:07 08-09-2013, Jorge Amodio wrote: You mean like Pakistan, Iran, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia There were people from Pakistan who participated in the IETF. I recall an email exchange where a person from that country received an unpleasant comment from someone who is part of the IETF leadership. In my opinion a discussion about Country X or Country Y would take the thread downhill. It can also have a chilling effect. State employment of legal and extra-legal means to spy on and capitalize the activities of their own citizens and those of other states is something that transcends boundries, cultural identity or ideology. It doesn't much matter if you're David Dellinger, Neda Agha Sultan, Khalid El-Masri, etc, if you'd ended up on the wrong side of a state apparatus, well you're going to have a bad time of it. Should your tools, the contents of your mind, and the various effects and context of your personal communication become instruments of state-power? Because the tools we've built are certainly capable of that. At 05:14 08-09-2013, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: Another worrying aspect of [censored] is that it is named after[censored]. They seem to be looking to make [censored] out of us. They certainly seem to be endorsing [censored]. What should we think if the [censored] had a similar program codenamed [censored]? It would not look good. Regards, -sm
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
On 09/09/2013 03:03, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Noel Chiappa j...@mercury.lcs.mit.eduwrote: Probably best if we keep the politics off the IETF list. Noel I grew up in politics. There is a method to my approach here. Nevertheless, it is the wrong method here. Brian
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
ietf-boun...@ietf.org wrote on 09/08/2013 08:14:07 AM: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com Another worrying aspect of BULLRUN is that it is named after a victory for the confederate side in the US civil war. But the battles are only called the (First or Second) Battle of Bull Run by the NORTH, which lost them. The SOUTHerners who won the battle, as well as the now-local residents of Northern Virginia, refer to them as the Battle of (First or Second) Manassas. To the locals, Bull Run is simply a local creek which happens to run through the battle field. ] Janet
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
Hi Joel, At 11:59 08-09-2013, joel jaeggli wrote: Should your tools, the contents of your mind, and the various effects and context of your personal communication become instruments of state-power? Because the tools we've built are certainly capable of that. Yes. That's not a good motivation to give up on privacy though. Regards, -sm
Re: Equably when it comes to privacy
On 9/8/13 4:36 PM, SM wrote: Hi Joel, At 11:59 08-09-2013, joel jaeggli wrote: Should your tools, the contents of your mind, and the various effects and context of your personal communication become instruments of state-power? Because the tools we've built are certainly capable of that. Yes. That's not a good motivation to give up on privacy though. It is not. That said, the chickens are coming home to roost. Regards, -sm
