Re: How does the IETF evolve to continue to be an effective, efficient, and relevant source of high quality Internet standards? Was: Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

[S Moonesamy]

At 13:15 29-04-2013, Michael StJohns wrote:

Let me ask a couple of specific questions of you.


I think that these are good questions.

Who have you mentored in the past 5 years?  Have  they ended up as 
working group chairs, or ADs or IAB members?   Do they mostly 
represent under-represented groups?  How many of them were employed 
by your employer (e.g. was this a work related task?)?


I don't mentor IETF participants as I consider everyone who does not 
have a title as a peer.  None of the peers I have interacted with 
ended up as working group chair, Area Director or IAB member.  I have 
not given much thought about whether most of the peers I have 
interacted with represent under-represented groups.  My guess is that 
it is a significant number.


During your time as an AD, how many women did you arm twist/recruit 
specifically  (or ask nicely) to take WG positions in your area (as 
opposed to them coming to you or your co-AD)?


I do some things on behalf of the Applications Area directorate.  At 
the last IETF meeting I asked four women whether they would like to 
do some reviews.  There was one positive answer.  There are people of 
different ages.  There are people who work for a range of vendors on 
the directorate.  There are a few people who work for 
universities.  There are people who come from different parts of the 
world.  The list of reviewers and the work they perform is published 
on an IETF web site [1].  If anyone has questions about 
under-represented groups in relation to the directorate please post a 
message to this mailing list and I will reply.


Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate 

How does the IETF evolve to continue to be an effective, efficient, and relevant source of high quality Internet standards? Was: Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?

[Michael StJohns]

At 03:30 PM 4/29/2013, Margaret Wasserman wrote:

Hi Mike,

On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Michael StJohns mstjo...@comcast.net wrote:
 We have an IETF culture - like it or not.  It changes over time, as the 
 population changes.  We can't and shouldn't expect to be able to change it 
 by fiat, or to adopt as whole cloth a bias free culture (for some values of 
 bias).


How you do you think a culture evolves to be more inclusive?  Might that start 
with discussions like these?

I believe your statement implies some preconceptions - that you believe the 
IETF culture is not inclusive enough and that more inclusiveness will benefit 
the IETF.  I'm not sure there's evidence to support the first - hence the 
numerical analysis.   It may be the case that we're not inclusive enough is a 
correct evaluation, but see Stewart's note on the human tendency to impute 
patterns into random results.

I would ask this instead - How does the IETF evolve to continue to be an 
effective, efficient, and relevant source of high quality Internet standards?

If one of the answers to that question necessarily involves inclusiveness, then 
the conversation should go forward on that topic, but preferably not in 
isolation, not as the fix this now knee jerk (my perception) type of activity 
that seems to be going on.

Let me ask a couple of specific questions of you.  

Who have you mentored in the past 5 years?  Have  they ended up as working 
group chairs, or ADs or IAB members?   Do they mostly represent 
under-represented groups?  How many of them were employed by your employer 
(e.g. was this a work related task?)?

During your time as an AD, how many women did you arm twist/recruit 
specifically  (or ask nicely) to take WG positions in your area (as opposed to 
them coming to you or your co-AD)?  

How many non-employee, under-represented population attendees is your current 
employer supporting to go to the IETF?  Have you addressed this with your 
employer?

Why is the inclusiveness question more of an IETF question, as opposed to one 
of personal actions?

I'm asking the above, because I'm trying to get a calibration on what you mean 
by inclusiveness and how important it actually is for you, and possibly for 
your employer.

Mike



Margaret