IETF 113 post-meeting survey results
Thank you to all you that took part in the post-meeting survey for IETF 113. The results have now been published [1] as an interactive dashboard. For commentary and analysis, see the blog post [2]. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or further feedback. Note, we are aware that some browser privacy extensions stop this dashboard from working and we are trying to find a workaround. Jay [1] https://ql.tc/le6Ya3 [2] https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-113-post-meeting-survey/ -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-direc...@ietf.org ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
IETF 112 post-meeting survey results
Thank you to all you that took part in the post-meeting survey for IETF 112. The results have now been published [1] as an interactive dashboard For commentary and analysis, see the blog post [2]. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or further feedback. [1] https://ql.tc/TvkFEp [2] https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-112-post-meeting-survey/ -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-direc...@ietf.org ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
IETF 111 post-meeting survey results
Thank you to all you that took part in the post-meeting survey for IETF 111. The results have now been published [1] as an interactive dashboard For commentary and analysis, see the blog post [2]. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or further feedback. [1] https://ql.tc/CjdH5Q [2] https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-111-post-meeting-survey/ -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-direc...@ietf.org ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
IETF 110 post-meeting survey results
Thank you to all you that took part in the post-meeting survey for IETF 110. The results have now been published [1] and show a statistically significant improvement over IETF 109 in most areas. For more commentary and analysis, see our blog post [2]. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or further feedback. [1] https://ql.tc/yRJwJ2 [2] https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-110-post-meeting-survey/ -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-direc...@ietf.org ___ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
Re: Meeting Survey Results
And only 7% say that the $50US fee hike might stop them attending again. With so many people unhappy with wireless, these stats add up to charging more for better wireless The weird stat was 7% for whom $50US extra means they have to file paperwork to get the money (just eat less? :) I meant to follow up on this sooner - sorry... I've worked for two employers that had $500 limits on credit card expenditures (beyond that, you had to either turn in check requests or use your own credit card). Reimbursement wasn't the issue, the issue was that the employers were trying to limit card use to something that was most likely business-related (so, for instance, I couldn't go buy a car with my corporate card) and not too likely to blow a budget without manager signoff until it was too late. The weird stat was that this seems to be a one-size-fits-all number, at least per-company - the employers couldn't figure out how to change my limit to $650 so I could register late without needing special processing, without changing the limit for other employees as well. Thanks, Spencer ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Hi David, I'm not really sure if we are able to completely understand each other, may be my fault with my poor English. I'm not saying anyone is enforcing one or the other protocol, I just say that it may be wrong to assume, even if we believe that a is better, that it will work if almost everyone move to a. And then we will have recommended everyone to invest in something that was not so useful ... I'm not enforcing the NOC to make a b/g network, especially once has been explained why a seems to be better. On the other way around, I'm sure that they are doing the best that can be done, absolutely no doubt on that. Once more, some times providing details could be more helpful than just decisions w/o explanations about why. Let's close this here, please. Regards, Jordi De: David Kessens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:03:01 -0800 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Meeting Survey Results Jordi, On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 05:47:17PM -0400, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: I understand your point, which somehow has been replied by some other comments in the list such as: - Is not so clear that this technology (a) will still work if all use it. - We are asking to change to 75% of the attendees. I don't understand why you keep harping on this issue that only exists because you have misread our announcement. We have been very forthcoming and clear why we like people to bring 802.11a cards. We are not forcing anybody to use 802.11a and there is absolutely no talk of not providing 802.11b wireless access. We *RECOMMEND* that people bring and use 802.11a gear because we believe that *EVERYBODY*, including people who only have 802.11b cards, will have a better network experience. The only thing that we should have mentioned, but that we overlooked as most cards/dongles on the market now do 802.11a,bg, is that we don't recommend to leave your 802.11b equipment at home. The hotel is very large and there will be areas in the fringes that will have better 802.11b coverage or that are only covered by the hotels own 802.11b service. - 50USD may be a lot for some people. You can easily get cards *LESS* than US$50. It is your judgement call whether you believe that this investment is worth it. Don't buy a 802.11a card/dongle if you think it is too much. Nobody forces you to buy one. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Hi David, Don't want to start a new useless thread here, my point was basically to show that b/g has a wider adoption and 75% of the laptops don't have built-in a, so it makes sense to make additional effort to get it working. I also learn from a previous email the reasons why b/g are not so good in our meeting, and may be thru our liaison with IEEE we need to make some noise over there, so the market use a better technology. I also got some folks confirming that a cards where available also in previous meetings, but probably that was not properly advertised, may be ? Regards, Jordi De: David Kessens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:38:51 -0800 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Meeting Survey Results Jordi, On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 02:44:15PM -0400, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: I'm not sure if I got it. My MUST was on the other way around: We really need to warrantee good coverage for b/g to 75% of the participants. We hope to offer good connectivity to the other 25% of the participants as well. You can help us by bringing a configured 802.11a card. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 08:45:51AM -0800, Ned Freed wrote: Are there cards with Mac OS X drivers nowadays? Yes there are. Here's the one I use: http://www.orangeware.com/endusers/wirelessformac.html There's a fairly long list of supported cards, some of which support 802.11a. I'm currently using a 3COM 3CRWE154A72 card, FWIW. Away from the technobabble... A key finding is that only 7% have to pay their own way to the IETF, some of whom may have their own companies. And only 7% say that the $50US fee hike might stop them attending again. With so many people unhappy with wireless, these stats add up to charging more for better wireless The weird stat was 7% for whom $50US extra means they have to file paperwork to get the money (just eat less? :) -- Tim/::1 ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Meeting Survey Results
I also learn from a previous email the reasons why b/g are not so good in our meeting, and may be thru our liaison with IEEE we need to make some noise over there, so the market use a better technology. From the perspective of RF attenuation (and signals not going through air walls in hotels), 802.11a is actually a better technology. The spectrum used is at a higher frequency, and the standard includes more channels which can be used to deploy a WLAN in tight quarters (like an IETF meeting). If making noise would help, I think petitioning Apple to include 802.11a in their machines would be more effective in the market than asking IEEE802 to develop yet another WLAN standard (imho). However, I agree with your observation that using 802.11a may not be a choice for a lot of people in Dallas, at IETF 65. Regards, Ed J. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:40 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Meeting Survey Results Hi David, Don't want to start a new useless thread here, my point was basically to show that b/g has a wider adoption and 75% of the laptops don't have built-in a, so it makes sense to make additional effort to get it working. I also learn from a previous email the reasons why b/g are not so good in our meeting, and may be thru our liaison with IEEE we need to make some noise over there, so the market use a better technology. I also got some folks confirming that a cards where available also in previous meetings, but probably that was not properly advertised, may be ? Regards, Jordi De: David Kessens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:38:51 -0800 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Meeting Survey Results Jordi, On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 02:44:15PM -0400, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: I'm not sure if I got it. My MUST was on the other way around: We really need to warrantee good coverage for b/g to 75% of the participants. We hope to offer good connectivity to the other 25% of the participants as well. You can help us by bringing a configured 802.11a card. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Kessens writes: Jordi, On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 02:44:15PM -0400, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: I'm not sure if I got it. My MUST was on the other way around: We really need to warrantee good coverage for b/g to 75% of the participants. We hope to offer good connectivity to the other 25% of the participants as well. You can help us by bringing a configured 802.11a card. How much of the benefit of 801.11a is because so few people are using it? Would it hold up if everyone switched to it? Yes, there are more frequencies and less congestion. Is that enough? --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Meeting Survey Results
Well, in theory, 802.11a should scale better because of the shorter range and the additional non-overlapping channels. Now, I'm not guaranteeing that there won't be other issues we haven't identified. We haven't had the density on 11a yet to find the problems we don't know about. What we do know is that thus far folks using 11a on IETF networks have been happier than folks using 11b. Karen How much of the benefit of 801.11a is because so few people are using it? Would it hold up if everyone switched to it? Yes, there are more frequencies and less congestion. Is that enough? --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Meeting Survey Results
Jordi, Don't want to start a new useless thread here, my point was basically to show that b/g has a wider adoption and 75% of the laptops don't have built-in a, so it makes sense to make additional effort to get it working. My basic problem with this and previous comments on this topic from you is the implication that with better planning and/or additional effort the problems would be solved. If you believe this to be so, then please share that technical knowledge. I have been involved in most of the IETF wireless networks for the last three years. We don't plan in advance to deploy wireless networks with issues. Some of what I consider the best in the business have worked on this over the years, and we still run into issues. Concrete technical suggestions for improvements and contributions of resources (equipment and people) are welcome. Just telling us to put forth additional effort to get it working doesn't get the job done. Karen ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] ds.navy.mil, Odonoghue, Karen F CIV B35-Branch writes: Well, in theory, 802.11a should scale better because of the shorter range and the additional non-overlapping channels. Now, I'm not guaranteeing that there won't be other issues we haven't identified. We haven't had the density on 11a yet to find the problems we don't know about. What we do know is that thus far folks using 11a on IETF networks have been happier than folks using 11b. Yup. And the difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference, but in practice there is... I agree with your observation -- 802.11a users are more satisfied with the network. I made sure that I got an 802.11a-capable interface when I bought a new laptop. But I'm reluctant to tell everyone to do that without more assurance that it will solve the problem. We've heard lots of hypotheses over the years on what to do about 802.11b/g, including lower-power access points, more attention to channel assignment, and getting people to turn off ad hoc mode. None of those have solved the problem. Will switching to 802.11a? Is there other prior art we need to look at? --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
802.11a (RE: Meeting Survey Results)
[the dreaded subject-changer strikes again] --On 25. januar 2006 12:20 -0600 Odonoghue, Karen F CIV B35-Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, in theory, 802.11a should scale better because of the shorter range and the additional non-overlapping channels. Now, I'm not guaranteeing that there won't be other issues we haven't identified. We haven't had the density on 11a yet to find the problems we don't know about. What we do know is that thus far folks using 11a on IETF networks have been happier than folks using 11b. One thing I learned at the IEEE meeting the week following the IETF (where the week started with EXACTLY the same problems as at the IETF) was that the 802.11a specifications left out the ad hoc mode. So we're *guaranteed* that no conformant 802.11a card will go into ad hoc mode, because there ain't no such thing. Yours for the removal of features Harald pgpJhvViNFsM6.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
In your previous mail you wrote: There's a fairly long list of supported cards, some of which support 802.11a. = as I've currently a 12 PowerBook I'd like to find a wordwide usable .11a USB dongle because: - the only time I used an .11a card it was great! - if enough persons are switching to .11a perhaps the .11b/g is becoming again usable. [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS: I need a local (Dallas) place to buy it too. PPS: it seems the ZyXEL AG-225H is supported (there is a driver on us.zyel.com for MacOS). Of course, it is not possible to get one in France. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Steve, On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 01:38:03PM -0500, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: I agree with your observation -- 802.11a users are more satisfied with the network. I made sure that I got an 802.11a-capable interface when I bought a new laptop. But I'm reluctant to tell everyone to do that without more assurance that it will solve the problem. We've heard lots of hypotheses over the years on what to do about 802.11b/g, including lower-power access points, more attention to channel assignment, and getting people to turn off ad hoc mode. None of those have solved the problem. Will switching to 802.11a? Is there other prior art we need to look at? Theory and practical experience both indicate that 802.11a can give you better performance in IETF settings. And for the record, we are not talking about switching to 802.11a (check out: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/notes_noc65.html). We are advising people to bring a card/dongle that is capable of 802.11a to take advantage of this better performing technology. At current prices (it is not hard to find prices well below US$50), this seems a rather small investment to make. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Francis, On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 08:27:37PM +0100, Francis Dupont wrote: PS: I need a local (Dallas) place to buy it too. www.frys.com Fry's Electronics 12710 Executive Drive Dallas, TX (214) 342-5900 about 14 miles from the hotel. We will see whether we can post this information to the webpage and we will check if there are more nearby stores. Of course, Fry's tends to be well worth the drive even if there are stores that are more nearby. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Hi Karen, I understand your point, which somehow has been replied by some other comments in the list such as: - Is not so clear that this technology (a) will still work if all use it. - We are asking to change to 75% of the attendees. - 50USD may be a lot for some people. Moreover, my comment comes basically from the perspective of understanding that is a lack of information what it matters here. It may have been my own ignorance regarding the theoretical advantages of a versus b/g, which make me assume that it was just a question of more APs or something similar, because my previous experience in b/g only networks, has always been good except in IETF meetings. Of course, the number of people using it was not so big. Some times it may be better to have a more detailed explanation from the NOC about why this decision is taken, instead of just providing the decision and full stop. That probably could have avoided the complete thread (which was very informative in any case, but may be not so much in other similar situations). Regards, Jordi De: Odonoghue, Karen F CIV B35-Branch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:30:32 -0600 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED], ietf@ietf.org Conversación: Meeting Survey Results Asunto: RE: Meeting Survey Results Jordi, Don't want to start a new useless thread here, my point was basically to show that b/g has a wider adoption and 75% of the laptops don't have built-in a, so it makes sense to make additional effort to get it working. My basic problem with this and previous comments on this topic from you is the implication that with better planning and/or additional effort the problems would be solved. If you believe this to be so, then please share that technical knowledge. I have been involved in most of the IETF wireless networks for the last three years. We don't plan in advance to deploy wireless networks with issues. Some of what I consider the best in the business have worked on this over the years, and we still run into issues. Concrete technical suggestions for improvements and contributions of resources (equipment and people) are welcome. Just telling us to put forth additional effort to get it working doesn't get the job done. Karen ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
On Jan 25, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Kessens writes: Jordi, On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 02:44:15PM -0400, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: I'm not sure if I got it. My MUST was on the other way around: We really need to warrantee good coverage for b/g to 75% of the participants. We hope to offer good connectivity to the other 25% of the participants as well. You can help us by bringing a configured 802.11a card. How much of the benefit of 801.11a is because so few people are using it? Would it hold up if everyone switched to it? Yes, there are more frequencies and less congestion. Is that enough? I imagine we are about to find out. Regards Marshall --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Jordi, On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 05:47:17PM -0400, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: I understand your point, which somehow has been replied by some other comments in the list such as: - Is not so clear that this technology (a) will still work if all use it. - We are asking to change to 75% of the attendees. I don't understand why you keep harping on this issue that only exists because you have misread our announcement. We have been very forthcoming and clear why we like people to bring 802.11a cards. We are not forcing anybody to use 802.11a and there is absolutely no talk of not providing 802.11b wireless access. We *RECOMMEND* that people bring and use 802.11a gear because we believe that *EVERYBODY*, including people who only have 802.11b cards, will have a better network experience. The only thing that we should have mentioned, but that we overlooked as most cards/dongles on the market now do 802.11a,bg, is that we don't recommend to leave your 802.11b equipment at home. The hotel is very large and there will be areas in the fringes that will have better 802.11b coverage or that are only covered by the hotels own 802.11b service. - 50USD may be a lot for some people. You can easily get cards *LESS* than US$50. It is your judgement call whether you believe that this investment is worth it. Don't buy a 802.11a card/dongle if you think it is too much. Nobody forces you to buy one. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Ken Raeburn wrote: Are there [802.11a] cards with Mac OS X drivers nowadays? This device has a lot of geek appeal; in addition to A/G/B support, it acts as a stand-alone handheld 802.11 network detection device: http://www.zyxel.com/product/model.php?indexcate=1131440677 The spec sheet doesn't make it obvious, but they do have an OS X driver available: ftp://ftp.us.zyxel.com/AG-225H/MacOSDriver/AG-225H_MacOSdriver_v1.10.zip /a ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
On Jan 23, 2006, at 21:57, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, Are there cards with Mac OS X drivers nowadays? Yes there are. Here's the one I use: http://www.orangeware.com/endusers/wirelessformac.html There's a fairly long list of supported cards, some of which support 802.11a. I'm currently using a 3COM 3CRWE154A72 card, FWIW. Ned ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Hi Jonne, I'm not sure if I got it. My MUST was on the other way around: We really need to warrantee good coverage for b/g to 75% of the participants. Regards, Jordi De: Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Espoo) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organización: NET/ST/IED Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 06:35:13 +0200 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Meeting Survey Results Hi Jordi, the preference for .11a was stated because we want to make sure that everybody who has the possibility for it would use it. It makes the network much more reliable. Of course b and g are provided as well. It is a recommendation not a MUST, like the mail says. Cheers, Jonne. On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 22:57 -0400, ext JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Ray, I'm not sure if we need some clarification on this: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] According to the survey, only 25.5% of the participants have 802.11a, which in my opinion means that 11b/g MUST be reliable for 75% of the participants in the next meeting. Remember that if we don't have an 802.11a interface in our laptops is because *THEY DONT'T HAVE IT*. In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, but is not reasonable (more power consumption, more things to carry, etc.). There is one more reason, is that in most of the world is not (today) widely used, so buying it almost only for IETF meetings, don't make too much sense. Even do, if it is just me, I will consider buying it, but I don't really agree to get this asked for 75% of the participants. It is not a choice ! So the clarification is ... what we actually will get at IETF65, and if something must be changed now for getting good 802.11b/g support, please, make sure about that now ! Regards, Jordi De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:45:07 -0500 (EST) Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Meeting Survey Results All; More than 300 responded to the Meeting Survey conducted following IETF 64 in Vancouver. See survey results link below. Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 2. Nearly 60% (with an additional 23% undecided) prefer dinner following all sessions of the day. 3. Only 23% prefer a full day schedule for Fridays. 4. Cookies are not the only craving for breaks -- 74% want more healthy choices. 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. And given the opportunity to say what they liked and didn't - 130 told us how they felt. Read it for yourselves: http://www.surveymonkey.com/Report.asp?U=165657447306 I and NeuStar Secretariat Services will review these results and make adjustments as possible for IETF 65 Dallas, March 19 - 24. And we look forward to seeing you there. Thanks for your participation. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Meeting Survey Results
Jordi, With the RF characteristics of 802.11b/g (including the fact that there are only three non-overlapping channels (in the US) and they all exist in the already overcrowded 2.4 GHz freq range) and the density of users in the meeting rooms at the IETF, you cannot warrantee a level of performance. I attend both IEEE 802 and IETF meetings and both struggle with wireless coverage at those densities for this very basic physical reason. The more transmitters you have transmitting on the same frequencies in the same space, the more noise you will have. The more noise you have the more performance issues you will experience. Technology and product evolution will improve the situation, but we have to work with what we have. While 802.11a hasn't overtaken 802.11b/g in general, it is much better suited for our environment. There are more non-overlapping channels, it operates in the less crowded 5 GHz range, and the range is shorter. Thus you can deploy more APs in the same space without contributing to the overall noise issue. We are suggesting that users that are willing and able should consider investing in 802.11a cards for a happier IETF network experience. Anything we can do to reduce the level of noise at will make the experience better for the remaining users. Past and current NOC teams plan to deploy the best network they can with the resources available. Donations of equipment and expertise are always welcome. Karen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 13:44 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Meeting Survey Results Hi Jonne, I'm not sure if I got it. My MUST was on the other way around: We really need to warrantee good coverage for b/g to 75% of the participants. Regards, Jordi De: Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Espoo) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organización: NET/ST/IED Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 06:35:13 +0200 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Meeting Survey Results Hi Jordi, the preference for .11a was stated because we want to make sure that everybody who has the possibility for it would use it. It makes the network much more reliable. Of course b and g are provided as well. It is a recommendation not a MUST, like the mail says. Cheers, Jonne. On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 22:57 -0400, ext JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Ray, I'm not sure if we need some clarification on this: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] According to the survey, only 25.5% of the participants have 802.11a, which in my opinion means that 11b/g MUST be reliable for 75% of the participants in the next meeting. Remember that if we don't have an 802.11a interface in our laptops is because *THEY DONT'T HAVE IT*. In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, but is not reasonable (more power consumption, more things to carry, etc.). There is one more reason, is that in most of the world is not (today) widely used, so buying it almost only for IETF meetings, don't make too much sense. Even do, if it is just me, I will consider buying it, but I don't really agree to get this asked for 75% of the participants. It is not a choice ! So the clarification is ... what we actually will get at IETF65, and if something must be changed now for getting good 802.11b/g support, please, make sure about that now ! Regards, Jordi De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:45:07 -0500 (EST) Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Meeting Survey Results All; More than 300 responded to the Meeting Survey conducted following IETF 64 in Vancouver. See survey results link below. Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 2. Nearly 60% (with an additional 23% undecided) prefer dinner following all sessions of the day. 3. Only 23% prefer a full day schedule for Fridays. 4. Cookies are not the only craving for breaks -- 74% want more healthy choices. 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. And given the opportunity to say what they liked and didn't - 130 told us how they felt. Read it for yourselves: http://www.surveymonkey.com/Report.asp?U=165657447306 I and NeuStar Secretariat Services will review these results and make adjustments as possible for IETF 65 Dallas, March 19 - 24. And we look forward to seeing you there. Thanks for your participation. Ray Pelletier IETF
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Just consider it a big experiment in 802.11a robustness. Regards Marshall On Jan 24, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Odonoghue, Karen F CIV B35-Branch wrote: Jordi, With the RF characteristics of 802.11b/g (including the fact that there are only three non-overlapping channels (in the US) and they all exist in the already overcrowded 2.4 GHz freq range) and the density of users in the meeting rooms at the IETF, you cannot warrantee a level of performance. I attend both IEEE 802 and IETF meetings and both struggle with wireless coverage at those densities for this very basic physical reason. The more transmitters you have transmitting on the same frequencies in the same space, the more noise you will have. The more noise you have the more performance issues you will experience. Technology and product evolution will improve the situation, but we have to work with what we have. While 802.11a hasn't overtaken 802.11b/g in general, it is much better suited for our environment. There are more non-overlapping channels, it operates in the less crowded 5 GHz range, and the range is shorter. Thus you can deploy more APs in the same space without contributing to the overall noise issue. We are suggesting that users that are willing and able should consider investing in 802.11a cards for a happier IETF network experience. Anything we can do to reduce the level of noise at will make the experience better for the remaining users. Past and current NOC teams plan to deploy the best network they can with the resources available. Donations of equipment and expertise are always welcome. Karen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 13:44 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Meeting Survey Results Hi Jonne, I'm not sure if I got it. My MUST was on the other way around: We really need to warrantee good coverage for b/g to 75% of the participants. Regards, Jordi De: Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Espoo) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organización: NET/ST/IED Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 06:35:13 +0200 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Meeting Survey Results Hi Jordi, the preference for .11a was stated because we want to make sure that everybody who has the possibility for it would use it. It makes the network much more reliable. Of course b and g are provided as well. It is a recommendation not a MUST, like the mail says. Cheers, Jonne. On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 22:57 -0400, ext JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Ray, I'm not sure if we need some clarification on this: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] According to the survey, only 25.5% of the participants have 802.11a, which in my opinion means that 11b/g MUST be reliable for 75% of the participants in the next meeting. Remember that if we don't have an 802.11a interface in our laptops is because *THEY DONT'T HAVE IT*. In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, but is not reasonable (more power consumption, more things to carry, etc.). There is one more reason, is that in most of the world is not (today) widely used, so buying it almost only for IETF meetings, don't make too much sense. Even do, if it is just me, I will consider buying it, but I don't really agree to get this asked for 75% of the participants. It is not a choice ! So the clarification is ... what we actually will get at IETF65, and if something must be changed now for getting good 802.11b/g support, please, make sure about that now ! Regards, Jordi De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:45:07 -0500 (EST) Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Meeting Survey Results All; More than 300 responded to the Meeting Survey conducted following IETF 64 in Vancouver. See survey results link below. Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 2. Nearly 60% (with an additional 23% undecided) prefer dinner following all sessions of the day. 3. Only 23% prefer a full day schedule for Fridays. 4. Cookies are not the only craving for breaks -- 74% want more healthy choices. 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. And given the opportunity to say what they liked and didn't - 130 told us how they felt. Read it for yourselves: http://www.surveymonkey.com/Report.asp?U=165657447306 I and NeuStar Secretariat Services will review these results and make adjustments as possible for IETF 65 Dallas, March 19 - 24. And we look forward to seeing you there. Thanks for your participation. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director. ___ Ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 17:45, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. Is there any correlation in the survey results between satisfied with wireless and has 802.11a? - Bill ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
-Original Message- From: Bill Sommerfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:44 pm To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Meeting Survey Results On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 17:45, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. Is there any correlation in the survey results between satisfied with wireless and has 802.11a? Nearly 55% of those who said they had 802.11a said wireless was adequate or better. Ray - Bill ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Jordi, On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 02:44:15PM -0400, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: I'm not sure if I got it. My MUST was on the other way around: We really need to warrantee good coverage for b/g to 75% of the participants. We hope to offer good connectivity to the other 25% of the participants as well. You can help us by bringing a configured 802.11a card. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Meeting Survey Results
All; More than 300 responded to the Meeting Survey conducted following IETF 64 in Vancouver. See survey results link below. Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 2. Nearly 60% (with an additional 23% undecided) prefer dinner following all sessions of the day. 3. Only 23% prefer a full day schedule for Fridays. 4. Cookies are not the only craving for breaks -- 74% want more healthy choices. 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. And given the opportunity to say what they liked and didn't - 130 told us how they felt. Read it for yourselves: http://www.surveymonkey.com/Report.asp?U=165657447306 I and NeuStar Secretariat Services will review these results and make adjustments as possible for IETF 65 Dallas, March 19 - 24. And we look forward to seeing you there. Thanks for your participation. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Hi Ray, I'm not sure if we need some clarification on this: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] According to the survey, only 25.5% of the participants have 802.11a, which in my opinion means that 11b/g MUST be reliable for 75% of the participants in the next meeting. Remember that if we don't have an 802.11a interface in our laptops is because *THEY DONT'T HAVE IT*. In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, but is not reasonable (more power consumption, more things to carry, etc.). There is one more reason, is that in most of the world is not (today) widely used, so buying it almost only for IETF meetings, don't make too much sense. Even do, if it is just me, I will consider buying it, but I don't really agree to get this asked for 75% of the participants. It is not a choice ! So the clarification is ... what we actually will get at IETF65, and if something must be changed now for getting good 802.11b/g support, please, make sure about that now ! Regards, Jordi De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:45:07 -0500 (EST) Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Meeting Survey Results All; More than 300 responded to the Meeting Survey conducted following IETF 64 in Vancouver. See survey results link below. Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 2. Nearly 60% (with an additional 23% undecided) prefer dinner following all sessions of the day. 3. Only 23% prefer a full day schedule for Fridays. 4. Cookies are not the only craving for breaks -- 74% want more healthy choices. 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. And given the opportunity to say what they liked and didn't - 130 told us how they felt. Read it for yourselves: http://www.surveymonkey.com/Report.asp?U=165657447306 I and NeuStar Secretariat Services will review these results and make adjustments as possible for IETF 65 Dallas, March 19 - 24. And we look forward to seeing you there. Thanks for your participation. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Ray, In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, but is not reasonable (more power consumption, more things to carry, etc.). There is one more reason, is that in most of the world is not (today) widely used, so buying it almost only for IETF meetings, don't make too much sense. By that standard configuring your laptop to support ipv6 doesn't make much sense either... Even do, if it is just me, I will consider buying it, but I don't really agree to get this asked for 75% of the participants. It is not a choice ! So the clarification is ... what we actually will get at IETF65, and if something must be changed now for getting good 802.11b/g support, please, make sure about that now ! Regards, Jordi De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:45:07 -0500 (EST) Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Meeting Survey Results All; More than 300 responded to the Meeting Survey conducted following IETF 64 in Vancouver. See survey results link below. Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 2. Nearly 60% (with an additional 23% undecided) prefer dinner following all sessions of the day. 3. Only 23% prefer a full day schedule for Fridays. 4. Cookies are not the only craving for breaks -- 74% want more healthy choices. 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. And given the opportunity to say what they liked and didn't - 130 told us how they felt. Read it for yourselves: http://www.surveymonkey.com/Report.asp?U=165657447306 I and NeuStar Secretariat Services will review these results and make adjustments as possible for IETF 65 Dallas, March 19 - 24. And we look forward to seeing you there. Thanks for your participation. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- -- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2 ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
On Jan 23, 2006, at 21:57, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, Are there cards with Mac OS X drivers nowadays? If I knew where to get one, I'd consider it, given the condition of the 802.11b/g network too much of the time. (Or are you running Linux kernels on your hardware?) Ken ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
Hi Jordi, the preference for .11a was stated because we want to make sure that everybody who has the possibility for it would use it. It makes the network much more reliable. Of course b and g are provided as well. It is a recommendation not a MUST, like the mail says. Cheers, Jonne. On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 22:57 -0400, ext JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Ray, I'm not sure if we need some clarification on this: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] According to the survey, only 25.5% of the participants have 802.11a, which in my opinion means that 11b/g MUST be reliable for 75% of the participants in the next meeting. Remember that if we don't have an 802.11a interface in our laptops is because *THEY DONT'T HAVE IT*. In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, but is not reasonable (more power consumption, more things to carry, etc.). There is one more reason, is that in most of the world is not (today) widely used, so buying it almost only for IETF meetings, don't make too much sense. Even do, if it is just me, I will consider buying it, but I don't really agree to get this asked for 75% of the participants. It is not a choice ! So the clarification is ... what we actually will get at IETF65, and if something must be changed now for getting good 802.11b/g support, please, make sure about that now ! Regards, Jordi De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:45:07 -0500 (EST) Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Meeting Survey Results All; More than 300 responded to the Meeting Survey conducted following IETF 64 in Vancouver. See survey results link below. Among the results are: 1. Slightly more than 25% say their laptop is compatible with 802.11a. [Note the IETF 65 NOC for Dallas recommends 802.11a] 2. Nearly 60% (with an additional 23% undecided) prefer dinner following all sessions of the day. 3. Only 23% prefer a full day schedule for Fridays. 4. Cookies are not the only craving for breaks -- 74% want more healthy choices. 5. Only 1/3 of the respondents expressed satisfaction with the wireless connectivity. And given the opportunity to say what they liked and didn't - 130 told us how they felt. Read it for yourselves: http://www.surveymonkey.com/Report.asp?U=165657447306 I and NeuStar Secretariat Services will review these results and make adjustments as possible for IETF 65 Dallas, March 19 - 24. And we look forward to seeing you there. Thanks for your participation. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Meeting Survey Results
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Ken Raeburn wrote: On Jan 23, 2006, at 21:57, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: In my own case, having a Mac is not easy to get built-in 802.11a. I can of course buy an external card, Are there cards with Mac OS X drivers nowadays? If I knew where to get one, I'd consider it, given the condition of the 802.11b/g network too much of the time. (Or are you running Linux kernels on your hardware?) Yes, several. Specifically, I gave 17 of the old Cisco .11a-only cards away in Vancouver, mostly to Mac folks. Chris. Ken ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf Chris Elliott CCIE# 2013 | | Customer Diagnostic Engineer ||| ||| RTP, NC, USA | | 919-392-2146 .:|:|:. [EMAIL PROTECTED]c i s c o S y s t e m s ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
