Re: Speaking of VAT
Hello, On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 5:11 PM, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote: At last week's very successful Berlin meeting, the finances were thrown of whack by the late discovery that the IETF had to pay 19% German VAT on the registration fee. At the IAOC session they said that about half of that is likely to be reclaimed from VAT paid, but the net amount is still a large number. In Buenos Aires, the VAT rate is 21% on most goods and services, with a special 27% rate on telecom services. Non-nationals can claim VAT back on almost every purchase made during their stay in Argentina. Given the timeframes involved and that I now doubt that the IAOC is going to ever be taken again by surprise by any tax-related matters, I dare say this would be a non-issue for the (hopefully upcoming) BA meeting. You can even claim VAT back on that case of Malbec wine many will be surely be taking back home. Just keep your receipts and plan an hour extra for the paperwork at the airport. cheers! ~Carlos
Re: Speaking of VAT
On Aug 4, 2013, at 22:11, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote: At last week's very successful Berlin meeting, the finances were thrown of whack by the late discovery that the IETF had to pay 19% German VAT on the registration fee. At the IAOC session they said that about half of that is likely to be reclaimed from VAT paid, but the net amount is still a large number. I don't get it. Given the above, the VAT adjustment is going to cost the IETF ~ 10 % revenue. At the same time, the attendance increased by more than that. What was thrown out of whack, please? Grüße, Carsten PS.: As a European attendee, of course I enjoy the ability to make a VAT claim. In effect, I'm recovering the VAT that IETF paid on goods and services in Berlin, and that is exactly what the concept of VAT is about. Raising the price to maintain net revenue at $650 would be disingenuous, as the VAT recovered by the IETF is an additional source of income to the IETF on top of that net revenue.
Re: Speaking of VAT
On Aug 7, 2013, at 4:53 PM, Carsten Bormann c...@tzi.org wrote: On Aug 4, 2013, at 22:11, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote: At last week's very successful Berlin meeting, the finances were thrown of whack by the late discovery that the IETF had to pay 19% German VAT on the registration fee. At the IAOC session they said that about half of that is likely to be reclaimed from VAT paid, but the net amount is still a large number. I don't get it. Given the above, the VAT adjustment is going to cost the IETF ~ 10 % revenue. At the same time, the attendance increased by more than that. What was thrown out of whack, please? Grüße, Carsten PS.: As a European attendee, of course I enjoy the ability to make a VAT claim. In effect, I'm recovering the VAT that IETF paid on goods and services in Berlin, and that is exactly what the concept of VAT is about. In effect you're getting a $103.78 reduction in your $650 registration fee. Raising the price to maintain net revenue at $650 would be disingenuous, as the VAT recovered by the IETF is an additional source of income to the IETF on top of that net revenue. The VAT paid on the Registration Fees will be about $137,000 USD. The VAT we expect to recover is about $65,000 USD after paying fees to a service company to recover the VAT. Ray IAD
Re: Speaking of VAT
Original Message - From: John R Levine jo...@taugh.com To: Yoav Nir y...@checkpoint.com Cc: ietf@ietf.org Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 10:47 PM Subject: Re: Speaking of VAT Ray said the tax guys told him the IETF would get back about half of the VAT it paid. That's unrelated to what anyone can reclaim. My understanding is that Germany has reciprocal VAT agreements with a bunch of countries so if your employer is in one of those countries it may be able to reclaim, but since the US isn't one of them I haven't looked in detail. John VAT is a European Union tax that all member states are required to levy on the supply of goods and services, although there is flexibility about the rate it is levied at and what it is levied on. As a VAT-registered business, mandatory when turnover exceeds a threshold, I tot up the VAT I have charged and the VAT I have paid and the difference goes to (or comes back from) the tax authorities. This applies across the European Union so there is no problem about where the VAT is paid - any European Union country will do - and equally, VAT must be charged whereever a supply is made. There is no requirement to charge VAT on the export of goods outside the European Union - technically, they are zero-rated - but in general, it must be charged on the export of services. The exemption on the export of goods has generated a lot of fraud in the past few years, especially on high value goods such as computer chips, and so has attracted the attention of the tax authorities. Only businesses can reclaim the tax - private individuals cannot. VAT as implemented in the European Union is an administrative and bureaucratic nightmare, generating work for armies of lawyers, accountants and administrators. I would be wary of extrapolating any aspect of European VAT to taxes of the same name in other parts of the world (smile - things could be worse:-). The European Union's VAT was the first, I think. Tom Petch R's, John
Re: Speaking of VAT
My understanding is that Germany has reciprocal VAT agreements with a bunch of countries so if your employer is in one of those countries it may be able to reclaim, but since the US isn't one of them I haven't looked in detail. John VAT is a European Union tax that all member states are required to levy on the supply of goods and services, although there is flexibility about the rate it is levied at and what it is levied on. ... Yes, but there are also reciprocal agreements separate from the usual credit for VAT paid, with non-EU countries including Israel. The page that Ray pointed to describes this. R's, John
Speaking of VAT
At last week's very successful Berlin meeting, the finances were thrown of whack by the late discovery that the IETF had to pay 19% German VAT on the registration fee. At the IAOC session they said that about half of that is likely to be reclaimed from VAT paid, but the net amount is still a large number. In Buenos Aires, the VAT rate is 21% on most goods and services, with a special 27% rate on telecom services. Just saying, R's, John PS: In Vancouver last year there was a combined federal and provincial VAT, called HST, of 12%. Now they're split, with the 5% federal VAT, called GST, at 5%, and the 7% provincial sales tax (PST) applied separately.
Re: Speaking of VAT
On Aug 4, 2013, at 11:11 PM, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote: At last week's very successful Berlin meeting, the finances were thrown of whack by the late discovery that the IETF had to pay 19% German VAT on the registration fee. At the IAOC session they said that about half of that is likely to be reclaimed from VAT paid, but the net amount is still a large number. The usual IANAL and IANAC should not be joined by IANACPA. But a CPA at my company said that we couldn't reclaim the VAT, because the service was consumed in Germany. If others hear different from their accounting departments, I'd love to hear about it. Just another data point. Yoav
Re: Speaking of VAT
At last week's very successful Berlin meeting, the finances were thrown of whack by the late discovery that the IETF had to pay 19% German VAT on the registration fee. At the IAOC session they said that about half of that is likely to be reclaimed from VAT paid, but the net amount is still a large number. The usual IANAL and IANAC should not be joined by IANACPA. But a CPA at my company said that we couldn't reclaim the VAT, because the service was consumed in Germany. If others hear different from their accounting departments, I'd love to hear about it. Ray said the tax guys told him the IETF would get back about half of the VAT it paid. That's unrelated to what anyone can reclaim. My understanding is that Germany has reciprocal VAT agreements with a bunch of countries so if your employer is in one of those countries it may be able to reclaim, but since the US isn't one of them I haven't looked in detail. R's, John
Re: Speaking of VAT
On Aug 4, 2013, at 11:47 PM, John R Levine wrote: At last week's very successful Berlin meeting, the finances were thrown of whack by the late discovery that the IETF had to pay 19% German VAT on the registration fee. At the IAOC session they said that about half of that is likely to be reclaimed from VAT paid, but the net amount is still a large number. The usual IANAL and IANAC should not be joined by IANACPA. But a CPA at my company said that we couldn't reclaim the VAT, because the service was consumed in Germany. If others hear different from their accounting departments, I'd love to hear about it. Ray said the tax guys told him the IETF would get back about half of the VAT it paid. That's unrelated to what anyone can reclaim. My understanding is that Germany has reciprocal VAT agreements with a bunch of countries so if your employer is in one of those countries it may be able to reclaim, but since the US isn't one of them I haven't looked in detail. The IAOC posted an FAQ on the subject at: https://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/vat.html See the links in the FAQ related to non-European countries that can reclaim the VAT. Ray IAD The Google English translation of the list is: Andorra Korea, Democratic People's Republic of Antigua and Barbuda Korea, Republic of (as of 1 January 1999) Australia Croatia (as of 1 January 2010) Bahamas Kuwait Bahrain Lebanon Bermuda Liberia Bosnia and Herzegovina (1 January 2006) Libya British Virgin Islands Liechtenstein Brunei Darussalam Macao Grand Cayman Island Maldives China (Taiwan) (1 July 2010) Macedonia (from 1 April 2000) Gibraltar Netherlands Antilles (30 April 1999) Grenada Norway Greenland Oman Guernsey Pakistan (from 1 July 2008) Hong Kong (PR China) Solomon Islands Iraq San Marino Iran Saudi Arabia Iceland Switzerland Israel (from 14 July 1998) St. Vincent and the Grenadines Jamaica Swaziland Japan Vatican Jersey United Arab Emirates Canada United States of America (USA) Qatar R's, John
