Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
"Joel" == Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Joel I've recieved 3 dozen or so responses from people on the mailing
Joel list who have automated vacation scripts. Please if you must use a
Joel vaction script on your mail either unsubscribe from the mailing
Joel list while you're gone, use procmail to filter your lists so they
Most of these people how no choice to use more intelligent systems.
The best that they can do is to not use the vacation system.
Their mailer systems are not rfc1123 compliant --- they use the
From: address for "errors", not the From_ address. Their vacation programs
can not ignore "Precedence:" headers, etc.
They all use the same mail systems, btw.
] Train travel features AC outlets with no take-off restrictions|gigabit is no[
] Michael Richardson, Solidum Systems Oh where, oh where has|problem with[
] [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.solidum.com the little fishy gone?|PAX.port 1100[
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Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
...and speaking of bad manners, I noticed that there is a resurgence of people talking mobile-phone calls in meetings. I was only there for one day but it happened twice in three meetings. Another annoyance is those who allow it to ring and then cancel the call (presumably using CLI or something). This is not as bad but still pretty disruptive, particularly for the person speaking at the time. Please switch them off. You shouldn't need to be asked. John --- Network Appliance Direct / Voicemail: +31 23 567 9615 Kruisweg 799 Fax: +31 23 567 9699 NL-2132 NG Hoofddorp Main Office: +31 23 567 9600 ---
RE: guidance (re: social event politeness)
Look, over a year ago, I was made painfully aware of the of the automated vacation notice propagating emails to members of lists. It was never my intent to inconvenience anyone by using the vacation notices function, rather just the opposite. I'm an Outlook user as it's the corporate standard on PCs and I would welcome information concerning any other mail package that would interact appropriately with an Outlook Exchange server that would include the capability to specify email ids which would be excepted from the automatic response function. It is plainly evident that Microsoft considers the inconvenience of the IETF, and other similarly organized groups, and the resultant negation of the value of this feature as small potatoes. Just how many lines of code and hours of testing would it take to make this a smooth feature? Probably not as many as have been lost for all the people who have had to deal the effluent. -Original Message- From: Vernon Schryver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: guidance (re: social event politeness) From: Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Another common curtesy issue this thread has raised is vacation scripts... I've recieved 3 dozen or so responses from people on the mailing list who have automated vacation scripts. Please if you must use a vaction script on your mail either unsubscribe from the mailing list while you're gone, use procmail to filter your lists so they don't get caught by your vacation script, or just don't use vacation... It's far from all vacation mechanisms that do the evil deed. If you look at the headers, you'll almost certainly find a telltale line of the form: X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (... All ordinary submissions with that black mark should be rejected. All requests sent to IETF list control addresses should be interpreted as unsubscribe requests. This would not purge the lists of the current abusers (those who insist on using that junkware and abusing the rest of us), but it would reduce their proliferation and encourage some to switch reasonable MUA's. If the IETF doesn't try to enforce minimal standards where it affects the business of the IETF, then the junkware vendors will never bother to fix their junk. Vernon Schryver[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
Those few of you who shrugged off a polite suggestion to join the back of the queue: we know who you are, and are prepared to identify you in front of thousands of your colleagues in the industry This is definately an RFC. We also need a BCP for where to hold conversations. (Hint: NOT in the middle of the hallways, please.)
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
my wife, a preschool teacher was in oslo. she said that she had never conceived that so many add (attention deficit) people could be in one place. our population has an overly high proportion of people who think that they are more 'important' than everyone else, the kind of folk who cut in plane boarding lines as if they will get to seattle sooner. feel sorry for them. life constantly reminds them that they are no more important than the rest of us tiny bags of impure water on a little ball at the far end of a big universe. randy --- ps: present company excepted, of course :-)
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
Sean Doran wrote: Is it appropriate to name shame people who were cutting into line yesterday during the social event, yet who did not admit to and fix the error of their ways when it was pointed out that this unfair behaviour is inappropriate? I will admit that I cut once, basically by accident, because I saw what looked like a table with nobody lined up at it--of course, the line was on the other side. I'm still not sure how I missed that--I think I was just too hungry; when I saw food, I got tunnel vision and went straight for it. I apologize. (Of course, we could discuss how the social was laid out so as to make it almost impossible to have well-defined lines...not an excuse, but it was part of the problem.) -- /==\ |John Stracke| http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own.| |Chief Scientist |=| |eCal Corp. |Among animals, it's eat or be eaten. Among | |[EMAIL PROTECTED]|people, it's define or be defined. | \==/
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
On 13 Dec 2000 at 14:50 -0800, Randy Bush apparently wrote: my wife, a preschool teacher was in oslo. she said that she had never conceived that so many add (attention deficit) people could be in one place. our population has an overly high proportion of people who think that they are more 'important' than everyone else, the kind of folk who cut in plane boarding lines as if they will get to seattle sooner. I don't think it's arrogance. Most of the people I talk to at the IETF are socially aware. I suspect it's two things. First, this is a crew who have been conditioned in their jobs to do whatever it takes to accomplish goals. That's fine in a controlled environment but can cause trouble in the outside world. Second, the overcrowding at the social event was such that it was clear there was a very good chance that if you weren't at the front of a "line" you would not get what you wanted ever. Ever. Not a situation we face very often.
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
You would think that a convention full of networking folk would have prepared better for congestion control. :-) - Original Message - From: "John Stracke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 3:12 PM Subject: Re: guidance (re: social event politeness) Sean Doran wrote: Is it appropriate to name shame people who were cutting into line yesterday during the social event, yet who did not admit to and fix the error of their ways when it was pointed out that this unfair behaviour is inappropriate? I will admit that I cut once, basically by accident, because I saw what looked like a table with nobody lined up at it--of course, the line was on the other side. I'm still not sure how I missed that--I think I was just too hungry; when I saw food, I got tunnel vision and went straight for it. I apologize. (Of course, we could discuss how the social was laid out so as to make it almost impossible to have well-defined lines...not an excuse, but it was part of the problem.) -- /==\ |John Stracke| http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own.| |Chief Scientist |=| |eCal Corp. |Among animals, it's eat or be eaten. Among | |[EMAIL PROTECTED]|people, it's define or be defined. | \==/
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
RED On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Steve Conner wrote: You would think that a convention full of networking folk would have prepared better for congestion control. :-) - Original Message - From: "John Stracke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 3:12 PM Subject: Re: guidance (re: social event politeness) Sean Doran wrote: Is it appropriate to name shame people who were cutting into line yesterday during the social event, yet who did not admit to and fix the error of their ways when it was pointed out that this unfair behaviour is inappropriate? I will admit that I cut once, basically by accident, because I saw what looked like a table with nobody lined up at it--of course, the line was on the other side. I'm still not sure how I missed that--I think I was just too hungry; when I saw food, I got tunnel vision and went straight for it. I apologize. (Of course, we could discuss how the social was laid out so as to make it almost impossible to have well-defined lines...not an excuse, but it was part of the problem.) -- /==\ |John Stracke| http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own.| |Chief Scientist |=| |eCal Corp. |Among animals, it's eat or be eaten. Among | |[EMAIL PROTECTED]|people, it's define or be defined. | \==/ -- -- Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Academic User Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -- It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of the right, 1843.
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
On Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 03:42:25PM -0800, Scott Brim wrote: ... Second, the overcrowding at the social event was such that it was clear there was a very good chance that if you weren't at the front of a "line" you would not get what you wanted ever. Ever. Not a situation we face very often. Indeed I waited on line for 15 minutes and when I finally got to the food table there was NOTHING (except some Chick Peas). I stood around for a while and eventually wandered away. For my second attempt, I was not so polite (and the line was a bit amorphous), but I got food! We shouldn't criticize people based on their behavior in a crowded and poorly organized arrangement (the placement of the food by the theater made determining who was on what line problematical). -Jeff
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
Is it appropriate to name shame people Be liberal in the abuse you accept, and conservative in the abuse you dole out. - RL "Bob"
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
At 16.18 -0800 00-12-13, Steve Conner wrote: You would think that a convention full of networking folk would have prepared better for congestion control. :-) As long as you don't start doing fragmenting. paf --
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
Thanks for the feedback, public and private. It is pretty clear that we attendees should talk to Qualcomm and Cisco about the disorganization of the social event. Our individual account team or sales people seem like good targets for complaints. However, wrt queue-jumping, there is a serious qualitative difference between what some of us are admitting to (innocently not realizing there ws a queue) and what happened in the IMAX queue. What I observed was this: the elevated red cloth strips forming the "walls" of the serpentine line to the IMAX show seemed to attract a sizable handful of people who realized that they can be "ducked under", or indeed, dismantled. I am sad to say that I saw this frequently while I was in one or the other corner near the IMAX theatre exit doors. When some friends and I pointed out to people doing this queue-jumping that they were being unfair to everyone else (who were suffering from the same disorganization), approximately 3/4 of the people in question left the queue and rejoined it at the back. Others required firmer persuasion, and a few required a threat of exposure on this mailing list before un-jumping from the queue. There were only FOUR people who refused to leave the queue. None offered an excuse (such as, I was just throwing away some garbage, or getting drinks for my friends here). They simply stayed in place, apparently not caring that they cut in ahead of hundreds of people who followed normal rules most of us learned as children. Two of these people were wearing their IETF conference badges. One was identified by several people nearby, who recognized her. One guy not only said "go ahead and name me", he attempted to identify himself AS SOMEONE ELSE, by handing over another person's business card. To this person: WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE NOW. I believe at least some of this is unacceptable behaviour that cannot be overlooked simply by virtue of general disorganization or industry competitiveness, and look for guidance about how we should (collectively) police such poorly-socialized people, if at all. Sean.
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
On 14 Dec 2000, Sean Doran wrote: I believe at least some of this is unacceptable behaviour that cannot be overlooked simply by virtue of general disorganization or industry competitiveness, and look for guidance about how we should (collectively) police such poorly-socialized people, if at all. Possible solutions, in no particular order: a) "There are few problems in life that can't be adequately addressed by a suitable application of high explosives." b) Whisper "asshole" whenever you're within earshot of the offenders, simultaneously throwing a brief but withering glance at them. Encourage others who were directly or indirectly a party to the offense to do the same. c) Socially engineer their room numbers then let your inner 12 year old loose, unsupervised, in a hotel with room service and a city full of delivery services of all kinds. Depending on the delivery services you enlist, be prepared with photographic equipment. d) Be glad you don't suffer such a pathetic existence as to have to lord your supposed privilege over others in order to feel anything analogous to self-worth. Whenever you're reminded of the offenders or the offense, recall this line and chuckle softly in bemusement. If they can hear you, so much the better, because they'll know you're having a little laugh at the expense of their aforementioned pathetic existence. Of course, in spite of what you might think, reading this, I'm inclined to be a pretty nice guy :) -- Joy-Loving * Tripp Lilley * http://stargate.eheart.sg505.net/~tlilley/ -- "There were other lonely singers / in a world turned deaf and blind Who were crucified for what they tried to show. Their voices have been scattered by the swirling winds of time, 'Cause the truth remains that no one wants to know." - Kris Kristofferson, "To Beat the Devil"
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
Another common curtesy issue this thread has raised is vacation scripts... I've recieved 3 dozen or so responses from people on the mailing list who have automated vacation scripts. Please if you must use a vaction script on your mail either unsubscribe from the mailing list while you're gone, use procmail to filter your lists so they don't get caught by your vacation script, or just don't use vacation... Judging from the laptop/wireless card density I seriously doubt any of the people using such a script are actually not reading their email here. and in any event mailing lists traffice should not generate such a response. thanks joelja On 14 Dec 2000, Sean Doran wrote: Thanks for the feedback, public and private. It is pretty clear that we attendees should talk to Qualcomm and Cisco about the disorganization of the social event. Our individual account team or sales people seem like good targets for complaints. However, wrt queue-jumping, there is a serious qualitative difference between what some of us are admitting to (innocently not realizing there ws a queue) and what happened in the IMAX queue. What I observed was this: the elevated red cloth strips forming the "walls" of the serpentine line to the IMAX show seemed to attract a sizable handful of people who realized that they can be "ducked under", or indeed, dismantled. I am sad to say that I saw this frequently while I was in one or the other corner near the IMAX theatre exit doors. When some friends and I pointed out to people doing this queue-jumping that they were being unfair to everyone else (who were suffering from the same disorganization), approximately 3/4 of the people in question left the queue and rejoined it at the back. Others required firmer persuasion, and a few required a threat of exposure on this mailing list before un-jumping from the queue. There were only FOUR people who refused to leave the queue. None offered an excuse (such as, I was just throwing away some garbage, or getting drinks for my friends here). They simply stayed in place, apparently not caring that they cut in ahead of hundreds of people who followed normal rules most of us learned as children. Two of these people were wearing their IETF conference badges. One was identified by several people nearby, who recognized her. One guy not only said "go ahead and name me", he attempted to identify himself AS SOMEONE ELSE, by handing over another person's business card. To this person: WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE NOW. I believe at least some of this is unacceptable behaviour that cannot be overlooked simply by virtue of general disorganization or industry competitiveness, and look for guidance about how we should (collectively) police such poorly-socialized people, if at all. Sean. -- -- Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Academic User Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -- It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of the right, 1843.
Re: guidance (re: social event politeness)
From: Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Another common curtesy issue this thread has raised is vacation scripts... I've recieved 3 dozen or so responses from people on the mailing list who have automated vacation scripts. Please if you must use a vaction script on your mail either unsubscribe from the mailing list while you're gone, use procmail to filter your lists so they don't get caught by your vacation script, or just don't use vacation... It's far from all vacation mechanisms that do the evil deed. If you look at the headers, you'll almost certainly find a telltale line of the form: X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (... All ordinary submissions with that black mark should be rejected. All requests sent to IETF list control addresses should be interpreted as unsubscribe requests. This would not purge the lists of the current abusers (those who insist on using that junkware and abusing the rest of us), but it would reduce their proliferation and encourage some to switch reasonable MUA's. If the IETF doesn't try to enforce minimal standards where it affects the business of the IETF, then the junkware vendors will never bother to fix their junk. Vernon Schryver[EMAIL PROTECTED]
