Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt
On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 1:10 PM Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Tom, > > I find your draft very interesting. I have a couple of questions: Hi Linda, > > what kind of applications are capable of sending signals/requests to the > network? I think it's any application that wants to request network services with characteristics appropriate to the application. Streaming video, video chat, vehicle communication, file transfer, gaming, etc. The idea is that tickets can be used to request a rich set of services provided to the application. > Section 2.3 Network Services: do you see UE sending signals to the network? > Or should it be the Application Controller notify all potential ingress nodes > (i.e. UPFs) I believe UEs should send the signals. I believe the UPF would interpret the host to network signals to identify the application characteristics. This is much more accurate than identifying applications based on IP addresses and port numbers which I believe they do today. Note that even if the UE is sending the signal, the signal content was created by the network and can be authenticated and validated that the user is authorized to use the expressed services. > is the signal to the network reflected by the Transport Protocol? Yes, if the signal is marked as "to be reflected". draft-herbert-fast-07 has some details about how reflection could be implemented > Can IPv6 extension header or flow labels be used to indicate its request to > the network? I'm partial to using Hop-by-Hop Options extension headers. They are extensible and really the only protocol mechanism designed for host to network signaling (and network to host signaling as well). There have been some efforts to commandeer some bits from the flow label, but flow label can only give at most 20 bits of information, all the bits in the flow label are commonly set to a simple hash for a flow, and there's an expectation that the flow label can't change for the lifetime of a transport connection (requests for network services might change over the course of a connection). The problem with HBH extension headers is that they experience a high drop rate on the Internet. The draft discussed some mitigations and there is work in 6man to address this. Tom > > > Thank you. > > Linda > > -Original Message- > From: Int-area On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2023 9:24 AM > To: to...@strayalpha.com > Cc: int-area ; tsvwg ; Michael Richardson > > Subject: Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for > draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt > > On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 8:10 PM to...@strayalpha.com > wrote: > > > > I’ve already commented on other lists, but to state here, IMO, UDP options > > exist in a space that the UDP header makes available. I do not think it is > > ever appropriate to use transport headers or signals to communicate with > > network devices. > > Joe, > > I tend to agree, but there are a couple of proposals in tsvwg for this so it > is referenced in the draft for completeness trying to cover as much as > possible. > > Tom > > > > > Joe > > > > — > > Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.s > > trayalpha.com%2F=05%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C0689ac4 > > ab0c247d77bfe08dbc0f7cb4d%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7 > > C638315942723729557%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIj > > oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=%2FYKpk > > kDA1h83b6eqgTObg5ffxrRbr5tDuK8GbGRnY4M%3D=0 > > > > On Sep 27, 2023, at 4:10 PM, Tom Herbert > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I've posted a use case and motivation document for Host to Network > > Signaling. > > > > I apologize for cross posting, but I believe this most likely falls in > > the intarea, however we've seen some proposals that could use a common > > protocol framework being presented in tsvwg. > > > > The goal of this document is to motivate discussion on the topic, and > > I believe that it may be significant enough to warrant work on this in > > IETF. > > > > Please review and comment! > > > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > > -- Forwarded message - > > From: > > Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 4:09 PM > > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt > > To: Tom Herbert > > > > > > A new version of Internet-Draft draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt has > > been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the IETF > > repository. > > > > Name: draft-herbert-net2hostsig >
Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt
Tom, I find your draft very interesting. I have a couple of questions: - what kind of applications are capable of sending signals/requests to the network? - Section 2.3 Network Services: do you see UE sending signals to the network? Or should it be the Application Controller notify all potential ingress nodes (i.e. UPFs) - is the signal to the network reflected by the Transport Protocol? - Can IPv6 extension header or flow labels be used to indicate its request to the network? Thank you. Linda -Original Message- From: Int-area On Behalf Of Tom Herbert Sent: Friday, September 29, 2023 9:24 AM To: to...@strayalpha.com Cc: int-area ; tsvwg ; Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 8:10 PM to...@strayalpha.com<mailto:to...@strayalpha.com> mailto:to...@strayalpha.com>> wrote: > > I’ve already commented on other lists, but to state here, IMO, UDP options > exist in a space that the UDP header makes available. I do not think it is > ever appropriate to use transport headers or signals to communicate with > network devices. Joe, I tend to agree, but there are a couple of proposals in tsvwg for this so it is referenced in the draft for completeness trying to cover as much as possible. Tom > > Joe > > — > Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.s > trayalpha.com%2F=05%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C0689ac4 > ab0c247d77bfe08dbc0f7cb4d%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7 > C638315942723729557%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIj > oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=%2FYKpk > kDA1h83b6eqgTObg5ffxrRbr5tDuK8GbGRnY4M%3D=0 > > On Sep 27, 2023, at 4:10 PM, Tom Herbert > mailto:tom=40herbertland@dmarc.ietf.org>> > wrote: > > Hi, > > I've posted a use case and motivation document for Host to Network Signaling. > > I apologize for cross posting, but I believe this most likely falls in > the intarea, however we've seen some proposals that could use a common > protocol framework being presented in tsvwg. > > The goal of this document is to motivate discussion on the topic, and > I believe that it may be significant enough to warrant work on this in > IETF. > > Please review and comment! > > Thanks, > Tom > > -- Forwarded message - > From: mailto:internet-dra...@ietf.org>> > Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 4:09 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt > To: Tom Herbert mailto:t...@herbertland.com>> > > > A new version of Internet-Draft draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt has > been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Name: draft-herbert-net2hostsig > Revision: 00 > Title:Host to Network Signaling > Date: 2023-09-27 > Group:Individual Submission > Pages:22 > URL: > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Farchive%2Fid%2Fdraft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt=05%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C0689ac4ab0c247d77bfe08dbc0f7cb4d%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C638315942723729557%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=6VoMcqP0wedXT43V4H4ARIaLZqy9KpYtAuoRXCGmVUM%3D=0 > Status: > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-herbert-net2hostsig%2F=05%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C0689ac4ab0c247d77bfe08dbc0f7cb4d%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C638315942723729557%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=gE4Lu%2FfRdqbq3ElQTj3tbKkNZ1IhJy81TvTpYhB7J7Q%3D=0 > HTMLized: > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdata > tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-herbert-net2hostsig=05%7C01 > %7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C0689ac4ab0c247d77bfe08dbc0f7cb4d%7C0 > fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C638315942723729557%7CUnknown > %7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ > XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=NWqJ9HwJFEZRu%2B35DMO8TZGhO6OmbgGiXG > suFKqaFkQ%3D=0 > > > Abstract: > > This document discusses the motivations, use cases, and requirements > for Host to Network Signaling. In Host to Network Signaling, a hosts > annotate packets with information that is intended for consumption by > on-path elements. Signals may be used to request services on a per > packet basis from on-path elements to request admission into the > network or to provide diagnostics and tracing information. > >
Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 8:10 PM to...@strayalpha.com wrote: > > I’ve already commented on other lists, but to state here, IMO, UDP options > exist in a space that the UDP header makes available. I do not think it is > ever appropriate to use transport headers or signals to communicate with > network devices. Joe, I tend to agree, but there are a couple of proposals in tsvwg for this so it is referenced in the draft for completeness trying to cover as much as possible. Tom > > Joe > > — > Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist > www.strayalpha.com > > On Sep 27, 2023, at 4:10 PM, Tom Herbert > wrote: > > Hi, > > I've posted a use case and motivation document for Host to Network Signaling. > > I apologize for cross posting, but I believe this most likely falls in > the intarea, however we've seen some proposals that could use a common > protocol framework being presented in tsvwg. > > The goal of this document is to motivate discussion on the topic, and > I believe that it may be significant enough to warrant work on this in > IETF. > > Please review and comment! > > Thanks, > Tom > > -- Forwarded message - > From: > Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 4:09 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt > To: Tom Herbert > > > A new version of Internet-Draft draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt has been > successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-herbert-net2hostsig > Revision: 00 > Title:Host to Network Signaling > Date: 2023-09-27 > Group:Individual Submission > Pages:22 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-net2hostsig/ > HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-net2hostsig > > > Abstract: > > This document discusses the motivations, use cases, and requirements > for Host to Network Signaling. In Host to Network Signaling, a hosts > annotate packets with information that is intended for consumption by > on-path elements. Signals may be used to request services on a per > packet basis from on-path elements to request admission into the > network or to provide diagnostics and tracing information. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > ___ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > ___ Int-area mailing list Int-area@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt
I’ve already commented on other lists, but to state here, IMO, UDP options exist in a space that the UDP header makes available. I do not think it is ever appropriate to use transport headers or signals to communicate with network devices. Joe — Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Sep 27, 2023, at 4:10 PM, Tom Herbert > wrote: > > Hi, > > I've posted a use case and motivation document for Host to Network Signaling. > > I apologize for cross posting, but I believe this most likely falls in > the intarea, however we've seen some proposals that could use a common > protocol framework being presented in tsvwg. > > The goal of this document is to motivate discussion on the topic, and > I believe that it may be significant enough to warrant work on this in > IETF. > > Please review and comment! > > Thanks, > Tom > > -- Forwarded message - > From: > Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 4:09 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt > To: Tom Herbert > > > A new version of Internet-Draft draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt has been > successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-herbert-net2hostsig > Revision: 00 > Title:Host to Network Signaling > Date: 2023-09-27 > Group:Individual Submission > Pages:22 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-herbert-net2hostsig-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-net2hostsig/ > HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-net2hostsig > > > Abstract: > > This document discusses the motivations, use cases, and requirements > for Host to Network Signaling. In Host to Network Signaling, a hosts > annotate packets with information that is intended for consumption by > on-path elements. Signals may be used to request services on a per > packet basis from on-path elements to request admission into the > network or to provide diagnostics and tracing information. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > ___ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area ___ Int-area mailing list Int-area@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
