Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+ (Jake Petroules)

[Adam Light]

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Steve Schilz  wrote:

>
> Why do people run on older deployment targets?  Inertia of large
> projects!  Our video module on OSX was written 7 years ago to support OSX
> 10.7 using QtKit, which was deprecated at the time.  While we have been
> aware of this for several years, I have only now been assigned to write an
> AVFoundation replacement because the 32 bit subsystem (and hence QtKit), is
> finally being pulled from the operating system.


We are in the same situation. While the QTKit headers were removed from the
10.12 SDK, the functionality does not seem to have been removed from the
OS. If you provide your own copy of the headers, you should be able to
compile and run old QTKit code. At least we're doing that in our Qt 5.9.3
based application. We have added an AVFoundation back-end but my
understanding is that there is not quite feature parity between the two
frameworks so we still use QTKit for some things.

Adam
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+ (Jake Petroules)

[Thiago Macieira]

On Thursday, 30 November 2017 17:37:22 PST Jake Petroules wrote:
> The minimum version for development AND deployment is the same. This is the
> same as for all other platforms unless explicitly marked "deployment only"
> (as was the case for Windows XP when deployment to that platform was still
> supported) so I don't see why macOS would be implied to be different in
> this regard.

One might look for that information because for a long while the minimum 
deployment target for macOS was lower than the minimum development macOS.

-- 
Thiago Macieira - thiago.macieira (AT) intel.com
  Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center

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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+ (Jake Petroules)

[Steve Schilz]

Hi Jake, 

TLDR:  
   • Please update docs to include mention of deployment target,  
   • People run older versions sometimes because of inertia of large projects
   • Qt support of two versions back matches Apple’s support policy.


I was looking at this this week, and wanted the same question answered…  It 
would be nice to add a note to the docs stating that the minimum supported 
platform for OS-X is a deployment target as well as a compilation target…

Our current shipping software on OSX is a 32 bit system is targeting 10.7 (yes, 
I know, ancient, see below).  Since I am in the process of updating to 
AVFoundation, and since nothing in the docs said I couldn’t, I was able to 
build against Qt 5.9.3 with a deployment target of 10.7 (w/ libc++).I 
haven’t tried to run it on an actual system yet, and based on your comments, I 
am not going to try. We are going to move to supporting 10.9 for now.

Why do people run on older deployment targets?  Inertia of large projects!  Our 
video module on OSX was written 7 years ago to support OSX 10.7 using QtKit, 
which was deprecated at the time.  While we have been aware of this for several 
years, I have only now been assigned to write an AVFoundation replacement 
because the 32 bit subsystem (and hence QtKit), is finally being pulled from 
the operating system.  In general, if you have a large software project, there 
is always tension between moving forward on things like operating systems (we 
support Mac, Windows, iOS, Android, and Chromebooks here), and writing new 
code.   In practice, this often means that the schedule only finds time to 
upgrade to newer platforms when we are forced to.

While I agree with Shawn Rutledge’s comments about planned obsolescence, it is 
probably worth mentioning in this discussion that Apple generally provides 
security updates for two or maybe three major versions, and Qt is in line with 
that.  I couldn’t find an Apple reference for that, but this stack overflow 
post has some relevant if older discussion: 
   
https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/47664/what-is-apples-policy-for-supporting-security-updates-on-older-versions-of-os-x

Steve Schilz
PASCO scientific
think science
 
 

 On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Jake Petroules 
wrote:



>>   > On Nov 28, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Hamish Moffatt  
>> wrote:
>>   >
>>   > https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported
>>   macOS environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions (10.10+)
>>   for runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether running on
>>   earlier versions is supported. Does anyone know?
>>   
>>   Currently we support the same minimum version for both runtime and
>>   development. Currently this is macOS 10.10 for Qt 5.9. Earlier OS versions
>>   will not work and will crash.
>>   
>>   > http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html suggests
>>   that 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is this?
>>   
>>   We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with 10.10.
>>   macOS upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users are on
>>   the latest version.
>>   
>>   Why do you need to support older versions?
>>   
>>   > Thanks,
>>   >
>>   > Hamish
>>   >
>>   > ___
>>   > Interest mailing list
>>   > Interest@qt-project.org
>>   > http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>>   
>>   --
>>   Jake Petroules - jake.petrou...@qt.io
>>   The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
>>   Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io



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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Hamish Moffatt]

On 30/11/17 03:08, Thiago Macieira wrote:

On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 05:32:53 PST Pavel Mogilevskiy wrote:

So I vote for support older OS X versions as long as possible.

There's no need for a vote (and there are no votes in the Qt Project).

We do support for as long as possible. But no longer.

Why was 10.10 dropped already? All I could understand from the 
development list archives was that it was dropped from continuous 
integration. Was this because there were just too many targets?


Were there incompatibilities that made it necessary to drop 10.10 
runtime support or is this only a test resourcing issue?



I'm not arguing for development support on old versions.


Hamish

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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Jean-Michaël Celerier]

> You spend more time trying to keep the older systems running using
outdated compilers and tools than creating new features or fixing other
bugs.

I don't think that's the case here: AFAIK you can use all the fancy C++
features you want and still target older macOS versions (as in, 10.6-like).
Just like you can target still target Windows XP from VS2017 with c++17
code that uses fold expressions and std::variant (I think thread_local and
shared_mutex won't work however, but Qt has its own implementation of those
anyways, QThreadStorage and QReadWriteLock).
The problem is not a tooling one: no one wants to run *development*
machines on old OS versions.
But the development tooling itself supports creating builds for older
versions of the OS, in both windows and macOS (and on linux too, if you're
willing to use another libc than glibc :p).

I honestly wouldn't care if we would *at least* get more modern APIs but
here it seems that we get the worst of both worlds: a slow-evolving API in
the sake of retrocompatibility BUT no support for OSes older than 3 years
(yes, 10.10 was only released 3 years ago). I mean, at that date, the C++14
standard was published, so why not at least bump the minimum required C++
version ?


---
Jean-Michaël Celerier
http://www.jcelerier.name

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Michael Jackson <
mike.jack...@bluequartz.net> wrote:

> Replace "Business" with your choice of:
>Development Group, Individual, Corporation, LLC, Developers in a Room,
> Grad Students, etc.
>
> At some point, supporting "older**" operating systems becomes a detriment
> to a project. You spend more time trying to keep the older systems running
> using outdated compilers and tools than creating new features or fixing
> other bugs. Again, there are reasons to both SUPPORT and NOT to support
> those systems and to each developer their reasons are valid. In a utopian
> world, all the tool vendors/groups would *always* back port their latest
> and greatest tools to the oldest operating systems. But from my 20+ years
> of experience, this just does not happen. Tool/Compiler/Library vendors
> move their tools forward with new features and drop support for "older"
> operating systems which brings about the question that the OP had.
>
> I think your interpretation of a "business" is different than mine? Not
> sure what you mean by your #2 statement?
>
>
> ** Older is completely arbitrary at this point.
> --
> Michael Jackson | Owner, President
>   BlueQuartz Software
> [e] mike.jack...@bluequartz.net
> [w] www.bluequartz.net
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Konstantin Tokarev <annu...@yandex.ru>
> Date: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 11:24 AM
> To: Michael Jackson <mike.jack...@bluequartz.net>, "
> interest@qt-project.org" <interest@qt-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+
>
>
>
> 29.11.2017, 19:09, "Michael Jackson" <mike.jack...@bluequartz.net>:
> > I vote NOT to. -1. Each business has to decide at what point is
> supporting the older hardware detrimental to their bottom line. For my
> business, I drew the line at 2 major releases behind Apple which aligns
> well with Qt. I service higher education and govt labs where people stay
> with hardware as long as possible for personal or corporate IT reasons. I
> weighed servicing those few clients with NOT having access to things like
> newer C++11 & C++14 because I had to support those older compilers and for
> my business that just didn't make sense. We _want_ to use the newer
> enhancements to C++ to make our developing lives easier and create more
> solid and stable code that the newer C++ and tooling brings. I communicate
> well in advanced our plans so that it isn't a "secret" to anyone. I
> recognize that _your_ business may have different needs and reasons than
> mine. There is no "correct" answer in this discussion. I just need a clear
> road map from Qt about what versions of Qt will su
>  pport
> >  which operating systems so that I can plan accordingly, and I have
> not had a problem getting that information.
> >
> > We also had a MacPro4,1 (2009 era, Dual Quad Core) that could not be
> upgraded to macOS Sierra so we turned it into a nice Windows 10 workstation
> instead. Total Cost $150 for the Windows 10 Pro license. Linux would have
> worked also. Those "cheese grader" MacPro machines just keep going. Nothing
> wrong with them.
>
> You seem to ignore facts that
> 1) many people don't use Qt for business reasons but have completely
> different motivation
> 2) Qt Project itself is not a business project
>
> But, as Thiago said, th

Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Michael Jackson]

Replace "Business" with your choice of:
   Development Group, Individual, Corporation, LLC, Developers in a Room, Grad 
Students, etc.

At some point, supporting "older**" operating systems becomes a detriment to a 
project. You spend more time trying to keep the older systems running using 
outdated compilers and tools than creating new features or fixing other bugs. 
Again, there are reasons to both SUPPORT and NOT to support those systems and 
to each developer their reasons are valid. In a utopian world, all the tool 
vendors/groups would *always* back port their latest and greatest tools to the 
oldest operating systems. But from my 20+ years of experience, this just does 
not happen. Tool/Compiler/Library vendors move their tools forward with new 
features and drop support for "older" operating systems which brings about the 
question that the OP had.

I think your interpretation of a "business" is different than mine? Not sure 
what you mean by your #2 statement? 


** Older is completely arbitrary at this point.
--
Michael Jackson | Owner, President
  BlueQuartz Software
[e] mike.jack...@bluequartz.net
[w] www.bluequartz.net

-Original Message-
From: Konstantin Tokarev <annu...@yandex.ru>
Date: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 11:24 AM
To: Michael Jackson <mike.jack...@bluequartz.net>, "interest@qt-project.org" 
<interest@qt-project.org>
Subject: Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+



29.11.2017, 19:09, "Michael Jackson" <mike.jack...@bluequartz.net>:
> I vote NOT to. -1. Each business has to decide at what point is 
supporting the older hardware detrimental to their bottom line. For my 
business, I drew the line at 2 major releases behind Apple which aligns well 
with Qt. I service higher education and govt labs where people stay with 
hardware as long as possible for personal or corporate IT reasons. I weighed 
servicing those few clients with NOT having access to things like newer C++11 & 
C++14 because I had to support those older compilers and for my business that 
just didn't make sense. We _want_ to use the newer enhancements to C++ to make 
our developing lives easier and create more solid and stable code that the 
newer C++ and tooling brings. I communicate well in advanced our plans so that 
it isn't a "secret" to anyone. I recognize that _your_ business may have 
different needs and reasons than mine. There is no "correct" answer in this 
discussion. I just need a clear road map from Qt about what versions of Qt will 
su
 pport
>  which operating systems so that I can plan accordingly, and I have not 
had a problem getting that information.
>
> We also had a MacPro4,1 (2009 era, Dual Quad Core) that could not be 
upgraded to macOS Sierra so we turned it into a nice Windows 10 workstation 
instead. Total Cost $150 for the Windows 10 Pro license. Linux would have 
worked also. Those "cheese grader" MacPro machines just keep going. Nothing 
wrong with them.

You seem to ignore facts that
1) many people don't use Qt for business reasons but have completely 
different motivation
2) Qt Project itself is not a business project

But, as Thiago said, there is no need to vote (because Qt Project is not a 
democracy either)

>
> --
> Michael Jackson | Owner, President
>   BlueQuartz Software
> [e] mike.jack...@bluequartz.net
> [w] www.bluequartz.net
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Interest 
<interest-bounces+mike.jackson=bluequartz@qt-project.org> on behalf of 
Pavel Mogilevskiy <pmogilevs...@gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 8:33 AM
    > To: "coroberti ." <corobe...@gmail.com>, Hamish Moffatt 
<ham...@risingsoftware.com>, "interest@qt-project.org" <interest@qt-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+
>
> +1
>
> Same here. We have users which don't have a chance for some reasons to
> upgrade to the latest OS X version, therefore we are using Qt 5.8
> (instead of Qt 5.9 LTS which we are using across other OSs) to support
> at least OSX 10.9.
>
> So I vote for support older OS X versions as long as possible.
>
> On 11/29/2017 3:08 PM, coroberti . wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Hamish Moffatt
> > <ham...@risingsoftware.com> wrote:
> >> On 29/11/17 14:46, Jake Petroules wrote:
> >>> Why do you need to support older versions?
> >> Because my customers are using them, right back to 10.7. They are
> >> educational institutions with whole labs of machines set up the 
sam

Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Konstantin Tokarev]

29.11.2017, 19:09, "Michael Jackson" <mike.jack...@bluequartz.net>:
> I vote NOT to. -1. Each business has to decide at what point is supporting 
> the older hardware detrimental to their bottom line. For my business, I drew 
> the line at 2 major releases behind Apple which aligns well with Qt. I 
> service higher education and govt labs where people stay with hardware as 
> long as possible for personal or corporate IT reasons. I weighed servicing 
> those few clients with NOT having access to things like newer C++11 & C++14 
> because I had to support those older compilers and for my business that just 
> didn't make sense. We _want_ to use the newer enhancements to C++ to make our 
> developing lives easier and create more solid and stable code that the newer 
> C++ and tooling brings. I communicate well in advanced our plans so that it 
> isn't a "secret" to anyone. I recognize that _your_ business may have 
> different needs and reasons than mine. There is no "correct" answer in this 
> discussion. I just need a clear road map from Qt about what versions of Qt 
> will support
>  which operating systems so that I can plan accordingly, and I have not had a 
> problem getting that information.
>
> We also had a MacPro4,1 (2009 era, Dual Quad Core) that could not be upgraded 
> to macOS Sierra so we turned it into a nice Windows 10 workstation instead. 
> Total Cost $150 for the Windows 10 Pro license. Linux would have worked also. 
> Those "cheese grader" MacPro machines just keep going. Nothing wrong with 
> them.

You seem to ignore facts that
1) many people don't use Qt for business reasons but have completely different 
motivation
2) Qt Project itself is not a business project

But, as Thiago said, there is no need to vote (because Qt Project is not a 
democracy either)

>
> --
> Michael Jackson | Owner, President
>   BlueQuartz Software
> [e] mike.jack...@bluequartz.net
> [w] www.bluequartz.net
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Interest <interest-bounces+mike.jackson=bluequartz@qt-project.org> 
> on behalf of Pavel Mogilevskiy <pmogilevs...@gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 8:33 AM
> To: "coroberti ." <corobe...@gmail.com>, Hamish Moffatt 
> <ham...@risingsoftware.com>, "interest@qt-project.org" 
> <interest@qt-project.org>
> Subject: Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+
>
> +1
>
> Same here. We have users which don't have a chance for some reasons to
> upgrade to the latest OS X version, therefore we are using Qt 5.8
> (instead of Qt 5.9 LTS which we are using across other OSs) to support
> at least OSX 10.9.
>
> So I vote for support older OS X versions as long as possible.
>
> On 11/29/2017 3:08 PM, coroberti . wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Hamish Moffatt
> > <ham...@risingsoftware.com> wrote:
> >> On 29/11/17 14:46, Jake Petroules wrote:
> >>> Why do you need to support older versions?
> >> Because my customers are using them, right back to 10.7. They are
> >> educational institutions with whole labs of machines set up the same 
> way -
> >> they probably get one chance a year to upgrade, and for whatever 
> reason they
> >> haven't so far. I can't stick to old Qt versions either because of 
> various
> >> bugs. 5.6 LTS has issues with accessibility crashes on newer macOS. 
> 5.8 is
> >> crashing in file open dialogs on 10.13. Thus I'm stuck.
> > Exactly, my case with edu users.
> > They are using Mac HW for up to 10 years.
> > About 1/3 is not upgradeable anymore: 10.7 and 10.8
> >
> >> I wish there was a bit more of a time window before you deprecate old
> >> versions. 10.7 is no older than Windows 7.
> > +1
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Robert
> > ___
> > Interest mailing list
> > Interest@qt-project.org
> > http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>
> ___
> Interest mailing list
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> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>
> ___
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-- 
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Konstantin
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Michael Jackson]

I vote NOT to. -1. Each business has to decide at what point is supporting the 
older hardware detrimental to their bottom line. For my business, I drew the 
line at 2 major releases behind Apple which aligns well with Qt. I service 
higher education and govt labs where people stay with hardware as long as 
possible for personal or corporate IT reasons. I weighed servicing those few 
clients with NOT having access to things like newer C++11 & C++14 because I had 
to support those older compilers and for my business that just didn't make 
sense. We _want_ to use the newer enhancements to C++ to make our developing 
lives easier and create more solid and stable code that the newer C++ and 
tooling brings. I communicate well in advanced our plans so that it isn't a 
"secret" to anyone. I recognize that _your_ business may have different needs 
and reasons than mine. There is no "correct" answer in this discussion. I just 
need a clear road map from Qt about what versions of Qt will support 
 which operating systems so that I can plan accordingly, and I have not had a 
problem getting that information.

We also had a MacPro4,1 (2009 era, Dual Quad Core) that could not be upgraded 
to macOS Sierra so we turned it into a nice Windows 10 workstation instead. 
Total Cost $150 for the Windows 10 Pro license. Linux would have worked also. 
Those "cheese grader" MacPro machines just keep going. Nothing wrong with them.

--
Michael Jackson | Owner, President
  BlueQuartz Software
[e] mike.jack...@bluequartz.net
[w] www.bluequartz.net

-Original Message-
From: Interest <interest-bounces+mike.jackson=bluequartz@qt-project.org> on 
behalf of Pavel Mogilevskiy <pmogilevs...@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 8:33 AM
To: "coroberti ." <corobe...@gmail.com>, Hamish Moffatt 
<ham...@risingsoftware.com>, "interest@qt-project.org" <interest@qt-project.org>
Subject: Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

+1

Same here. We have users which don't have a chance for some reasons to 
upgrade to the latest OS X version, therefore we are using Qt 5.8 
(instead of Qt 5.9 LTS which we are using across other OSs) to support 
at least OSX 10.9.

So I vote for support older OS X versions as long as possible.


On 11/29/2017 3:08 PM, coroberti . wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Hamish Moffatt
> <ham...@risingsoftware.com> wrote:
>> On 29/11/17 14:46, Jake Petroules wrote:
>>> Why do you need to support older versions?
>> Because my customers are using them, right back to 10.7. They are
>> educational institutions with whole labs of machines set up the same way 
-
>> they probably get one chance a year to upgrade, and for whatever reason 
they
>> haven't so far. I can't stick to old Qt versions either because of 
various
>> bugs. 5.6 LTS has issues with accessibility crashes on newer macOS. 5.8 
is
>> crashing in file open dialogs on 10.13. Thus I'm stuck.
> Exactly, my case with edu users.
> They are using Mac HW for up to 10 years.
> About 1/3 is not upgradeable anymore: 10.7 and 10.8
>
>> I wish there was a bit more of a time window before you deprecate old
>> versions. 10.7 is no older than Windows 7.
> +1
>
> Kind regards,
> Robert
> ___
> Interest mailing list
> Interest@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest

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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Pavel Mogilevskiy]

+1

Same here. We have users which don't have a chance for some reasons to 
upgrade to the latest OS X version, therefore we are using Qt 5.8 
(instead of Qt 5.9 LTS which we are using across other OSs) to support 
at least OSX 10.9.


So I vote for support older OS X versions as long as possible.


On 11/29/2017 3:08 PM, coroberti . wrote:

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Hamish Moffatt
 wrote:

On 29/11/17 14:46, Jake Petroules wrote:

Why do you need to support older versions?

Because my customers are using them, right back to 10.7. They are
educational institutions with whole labs of machines set up the same way -
they probably get one chance a year to upgrade, and for whatever reason they
haven't so far. I can't stick to old Qt versions either because of various
bugs. 5.6 LTS has issues with accessibility crashes on newer macOS. 5.8 is
crashing in file open dialogs on 10.13. Thus I'm stuck.

Exactly, my case with edu users.
They are using Mac HW for up to 10 years.
About 1/3 is not upgradeable anymore: 10.7 and 10.8


I wish there was a bit more of a time window before you deprecate old
versions. 10.7 is no older than Windows 7.

+1

Kind regards,
Robert
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Vadim Peretokin]

This sounds like a commercial issue then, could this be discussed on the
official commercial channels instead?

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:09 PM coroberti .  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Hamish Moffatt
>  wrote:
> > On 29/11/17 14:46, Jake Petroules wrote:
> >>
> >> Why do you need to support older versions?
> >
> > Because my customers are using them, right back to 10.7. They are
> > educational institutions with whole labs of machines set up the same way
> -
> > they probably get one chance a year to upgrade, and for whatever reason
> they
> > haven't so far. I can't stick to old Qt versions either because of
> various
> > bugs. 5.6 LTS has issues with accessibility crashes on newer macOS. 5.8
> is
> > crashing in file open dialogs on 10.13. Thus I'm stuck.
>
> Exactly, my case with edu users.
> They are using Mac HW for up to 10 years.
> About 1/3 is not upgradeable anymore: 10.7 and 10.8
>
> > I wish there was a bit more of a time window before you deprecate old
> > versions. 10.7 is no older than Windows 7.
>
> +1
>
> Kind regards,
> Robert
> ___
> Interest mailing list
> Interest@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[coroberti .]

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Hamish Moffatt
 wrote:
> On 29/11/17 14:46, Jake Petroules wrote:
>>
>> Why do you need to support older versions?
>
> Because my customers are using them, right back to 10.7. They are
> educational institutions with whole labs of machines set up the same way -
> they probably get one chance a year to upgrade, and for whatever reason they
> haven't so far. I can't stick to old Qt versions either because of various
> bugs. 5.6 LTS has issues with accessibility crashes on newer macOS. 5.8 is
> crashing in file open dialogs on 10.13. Thus I'm stuck.

Exactly, my case with edu users.
They are using Mac HW for up to 10 years.
About 1/3 is not upgradeable anymore: 10.7 and 10.8

> I wish there was a bit more of a time window before you deprecate old
> versions. 10.7 is no older than Windows 7.

+1

Kind regards,
Robert
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Hamish Moffatt]

On 29/11/17 14:46, Jake Petroules wrote:


Why do you need to support older versions?


Because my customers are using them, right back to 10.7. They are 
educational institutions with whole labs of machines set up the same way 
- they probably get one chance a year to upgrade, and for whatever 
reason they haven't so far. I can't stick to old Qt versions either 
because of various bugs. 5.6 LTS has issues with accessibility crashes 
on newer macOS. 5.8 is crashing in file open dialogs on 10.13. Thus I'm 
stuck.


I wish there was a bit more of a time window before you deprecate old 
versions. 10.7 is no older than Windows 7.



Hamish


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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Shawn Rutledge]

> On 29 Nov 2017, at 04:46, Jake Petroules  wrote:
> 
>> http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html suggests that 
>> 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is this?
> 
> We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with 10.10. 
> macOS upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users are on the 
> latest version.
> 
> Why do you need to support older versions?

Because of perfectly good hardware that Apple has decided is now too old to 
upgrade the OS any further.  Or because of a perception that newer OSes have 
more bugs, or are slower, or the UI design isn’t as nice…  people have their 
reasons, just like there are still die-hard 10.6 users out there.

I see the other side of it too: when supporting old APIs makes Qt code ugly and 
hard to maintain, or when the Xcode version has a compiler that is not meeting 
our needs, that plus obsolescence together are good reasons to upgrade the 
minimum requirement.  But I think we should be sure how much better we are 
making it, not just assume it’s normal that the latest Qt only builds on the 
latest macOS versions.

I now have two dual-Xeon MacPro’s at work (different ages) which are powerful 
enough for development but can’t be upgraded any further, therefore can’t get 
the latest Xcode, and so on.  (One at least has 10.12, so this problem will 
arise later when 10.13 is the minimum requirement.)  And I see this as a 
symptom of the planned-obsolescence treadmill, nothing more.  Apple wants to 
sell hardware, we help them do it (but they don’t pay us to), our company has 
to keep paying for new hardware, our customers have to do the same, and the 
older machines pile up because they are too beautiful and work too well to 
throw out.  I really don’t see anything fundamentally good about that, unless 
it helps us improve our code enough to be worth it.

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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Jean-Michaël Celerier]

Huh. Apparently every time I click on the "Operating Systems > Desktop
share (by version)" I get it for a different time frame. My bad.



---
Jean-Michaël Celerier
http://www.jcelerier.name

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Vadim Peretokin 
wrote:

> Well you haven't shown your search criteria but I can tell you that the
> October 2017 stats are not what you say: https://imgur.com/a/avGLj. If
> you're gonna be using stats to reinforce your point, you've gotta be honest
> about it.
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:47 AM Jean-Michaël Celerier <
> jeanmichael.celer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Uh ? For me it says 2.20% for MacOS 10.10 and 1.75% for Linux (in Desktop
>> OS market share).
>> https://imgur.com/a/xvAzX
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Jean-Michaël Celerier
>> http://www.jcelerier.name
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Vadim Peretokin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know where you're looking, but that says Linux is at 2.98%
>>> while macOS 10.10 is at 0.75%. Just pointing it out in case someone
>>> else believed this at first.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM Jean-Michaël Celerier <
>>> jeanmichael.celer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 There are more or less as many MacOS 10.10 users than Linux users
 apparently, so by that logic Qt should be dropping Linux support altogether
 :p (according to https://www.netmarketshare.com/)



 ---
 Jean-Michaël Celerier
 http://www.jcelerier.name

 On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Jake Petroules 
 wrote:

>
>
> > On Nov 28, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Hamish Moffatt <
> ham...@risingsoftware.com> wrote:
> >
> > https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported
> macOS environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions (10.10+)
> for runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether running on
> earlier versions is supported. Does anyone know?
>
> Currently we support the same minimum version for both runtime and
> development. Currently this is macOS 10.10 for Qt 5.9. Earlier OS versions
> will not work and will crash.
>
> > http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html
> suggests that 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why 
> is
> this?
>
> We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with
> 10.10. macOS upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users
> are on the latest version.
>
> Why do you need to support older versions?
>
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hamish
> >
> > ___
> > Interest mailing list
> > Interest@qt-project.org
> > http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>
> --
> Jake Petroules - jake.petrou...@qt.io
> The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
> Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io
>
> ___
> Interest mailing list
> Interest@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>

 ___
 Interest mailing list
 Interest@qt-project.org
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>>>
>>
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Vadim Peretokin]

Well you haven't shown your search criteria but I can tell you that the
October 2017 stats are not what you say: https://imgur.com/a/avGLj. If
you're gonna be using stats to reinforce your point, you've gotta be honest
about it.

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:47 AM Jean-Michaël Celerier <
jeanmichael.celer...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Uh ? For me it says 2.20% for MacOS 10.10 and 1.75% for Linux (in Desktop
> OS market share).
> https://imgur.com/a/xvAzX
>
>
>
> ---
> Jean-Michaël Celerier
> http://www.jcelerier.name
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Vadim Peretokin 
> wrote:
>
>> I don't know where you're looking, but that says Linux is at 2.98% while
>> macOS 10.10 is at 0.75%. Just pointing it out in case someone else
>> believed this at first.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM Jean-Michaël Celerier <
>> jeanmichael.celer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are more or less as many MacOS 10.10 users than Linux users
>>> apparently, so by that logic Qt should be dropping Linux support altogether
>>> :p (according to https://www.netmarketshare.com/)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Jean-Michaël Celerier
>>> http://www.jcelerier.name
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Jake Petroules 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 > On Nov 28, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Hamish Moffatt <
 ham...@risingsoftware.com> wrote:
 >
 > https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported
 macOS environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions (10.10+)
 for runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether running on
 earlier versions is supported. Does anyone know?

 Currently we support the same minimum version for both runtime and
 development. Currently this is macOS 10.10 for Qt 5.9. Earlier OS versions
 will not work and will crash.

 > http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html
 suggests that 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is
 this?

 We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with
 10.10. macOS upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users
 are on the latest version.

 Why do you need to support older versions?

 > Thanks,
 >
 > Hamish
 >
 > ___
 > Interest mailing list
 > Interest@qt-project.org
 > http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest

 --
 Jake Petroules - jake.petrou...@qt.io
 The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
 Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io

 ___
 Interest mailing list
 Interest@qt-project.org
 http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest

>>>
>>> ___
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>>> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Jean-Michaël Celerier]

Uh ? For me it says 2.20% for MacOS 10.10 and 1.75% for Linux (in Desktop
OS market share).
https://imgur.com/a/xvAzX



---
Jean-Michaël Celerier
http://www.jcelerier.name

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Vadim Peretokin 
wrote:

> I don't know where you're looking, but that says Linux is at 2.98% while
> macOS 10.10 is at 0.75%. Just pointing it out in case someone else
> believed this at first.
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM Jean-Michaël Celerier <
> jeanmichael.celer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There are more or less as many MacOS 10.10 users than Linux users
>> apparently, so by that logic Qt should be dropping Linux support altogether
>> :p (according to https://www.netmarketshare.com/)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Jean-Michaël Celerier
>> http://www.jcelerier.name
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Jake Petroules 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Nov 28, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Hamish Moffatt 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported
>>> macOS environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions (10.10+)
>>> for runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether running on
>>> earlier versions is supported. Does anyone know?
>>>
>>> Currently we support the same minimum version for both runtime and
>>> development. Currently this is macOS 10.10 for Qt 5.9. Earlier OS versions
>>> will not work and will crash.
>>>
>>> > http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html suggests
>>> that 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is this?
>>>
>>> We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with 10.10.
>>> macOS upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users are on
>>> the latest version.
>>>
>>> Why do you need to support older versions?
>>>
>>> > Thanks,
>>> >
>>> > Hamish
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Interest mailing list
>>> > Interest@qt-project.org
>>> > http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jake Petroules - jake.petrou...@qt.io
>>> The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
>>> Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Interest mailing list
>>> Interest@qt-project.org
>>> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Interest@qt-project.org
>> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>>
>
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Marius Ciucur]

Well, this site report totally different desktop OS market share: 
http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide ...

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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Jake Petroules]

Also, you need to look at future outlook. If Linux is at 3%, that number is 
likely to remain stable or grow. If macOS 10.10 is at 1%, that number will 
never grow and will likely drop sharply in a short timeframe given historical 
trends as newer versions gain market share in its place and macOS gains market 
share overall.

> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:28 AM, Vadim Peretokin  wrote:
> 
> I don't know where you're looking, but that says Linux is at 2.98% while 
> macOS 10.10 is at 0.75%. Just pointing it out in case someone else believed 
> this at first.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM Jean-Michaël Celerier 
>  wrote:
> There are more or less as many MacOS 10.10 users than Linux users apparently, 
> so by that logic Qt should be dropping Linux support altogether :p (according 
> to https://www.netmarketshare.com/)
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Jean-Michaël Celerier
> http://www.jcelerier.name
> 
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Jake Petroules  wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Nov 28, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Hamish Moffatt  
> > wrote:
> >
> > https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported macOS 
> > environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions (10.10+) for 
> > runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether running on earlier 
> > versions is supported. Does anyone know?
> 
> Currently we support the same minimum version for both runtime and 
> development. Currently this is macOS 10.10 for Qt 5.9. Earlier OS versions 
> will not work and will crash.
> 
> > http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html suggests that 
> > 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is this?
> 
> We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with 10.10. 
> macOS upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users are on the 
> latest version.
> 
> Why do you need to support older versions?
> 
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hamish
> >
> > ___
> > Interest mailing list
> > Interest@qt-project.org
> > http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
> 
> --
> Jake Petroules - jake.petrou...@qt.io
> The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
> Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io
> 
> ___
> Interest mailing list
> Interest@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
> 
> ___
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> Interest@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest

-- 
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The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io

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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Vadim Peretokin]

I don't know where you're looking, but that says Linux is at 2.98% while
macOS 10.10 is at 0.75%. Just pointing it out in case someone else believed
this at first.

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM Jean-Michaël Celerier <
jeanmichael.celer...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There are more or less as many MacOS 10.10 users than Linux users
> apparently, so by that logic Qt should be dropping Linux support altogether
> :p (according to https://www.netmarketshare.com/)
>
>
>
> ---
> Jean-Michaël Celerier
> http://www.jcelerier.name
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Jake Petroules 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 28, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Hamish Moffatt 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported
>> macOS environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions (10.10+)
>> for runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether running on
>> earlier versions is supported. Does anyone know?
>>
>> Currently we support the same minimum version for both runtime and
>> development. Currently this is macOS 10.10 for Qt 5.9. Earlier OS versions
>> will not work and will crash.
>>
>> > http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html suggests
>> that 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is this?
>>
>> We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with 10.10.
>> macOS upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users are on
>> the latest version.
>>
>> Why do you need to support older versions?
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Hamish
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Interest mailing list
>> > Interest@qt-project.org
>> > http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>>
>> --
>> Jake Petroules - jake.petrou...@qt.io
>> The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
>> Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io
>>
>> ___
>> Interest mailing list
>> Interest@qt-project.org
>> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>>
>
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Jean-Michaël Celerier]

There are more or less as many MacOS 10.10 users than Linux users
apparently, so by that logic Qt should be dropping Linux support altogether
:p (according to https://www.netmarketshare.com/)



---
Jean-Michaël Celerier
http://www.jcelerier.name

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Jake Petroules 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Nov 28, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Hamish Moffatt 
> wrote:
> >
> > https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported
> macOS environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions (10.10+)
> for runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether running on
> earlier versions is supported. Does anyone know?
>
> Currently we support the same minimum version for both runtime and
> development. Currently this is macOS 10.10 for Qt 5.9. Earlier OS versions
> will not work and will crash.
>
> > http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html suggests
> that 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is this?
>
> We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with 10.10.
> macOS upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users are on
> the latest version.
>
> Why do you need to support older versions?
>
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hamish
> >
> > ___
> > Interest mailing list
> > Interest@qt-project.org
> > http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>
> --
> Jake Petroules - jake.petrou...@qt.io
> The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
> Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io
>
> ___
> Interest mailing list
> Interest@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest
>
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Re: [Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Jake Petroules]

> On Nov 28, 2017, at 7:43 PM, Hamish Moffatt  wrote:
> 
> https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported macOS 
> environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions (10.10+) for 
> runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether running on earlier 
> versions is supported. Does anyone know?

Currently we support the same minimum version for both runtime and development. 
Currently this is macOS 10.10 for Qt 5.9. Earlier OS versions will not work and 
will crash.

> http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html suggests that 
> 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is this?

We decided it wasn't worth the resources to continue testing with 10.10. macOS 
upgrades are now free and the overwhelming majority of users are on the latest 
version.

Why do you need to support older versions?

> Thanks,
> 
> Hamish
> 
> ___
> Interest mailing list
> Interest@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/interest

-- 
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The Qt Company - Silicon Valley
Qbs build tool evangelist - qbs.io

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[Interest] minimum macOS runtime version for Qt 5.9+

[Hamish Moffatt]

https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html lists the supported 
macOS environments, but it's not clear if it's the same versions 
(10.10+) for runtime (deployment) as well as development, or whether 
running on earlier versions is supported. Does anyone know?


http://doc-snapshots.qt.io/qt5-5.10/supported-platforms.html suggests 
that 5.10 will increase this requirement further to 10.11+. Why is this?




Thanks,

Hamish

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