Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
Hi, thanks for supporting this!
> Maybe just 2 days (of internals and Reddit feedback) is a bit early to
> "give up"
I kinda thought so too after I declared defeat, but...
The Feature Freeze for 8.2 is July 19!
The RFC process requires two weeks each for discussion and voting.
If we want to add something good to 8.2, we have to draft the RFC
and start discussing it on internals by June 21 at the latest. So I may
be a bit impatient, yeah.
Other template engines, such as twig or ERB, often have flexible ways
of handling whitespace and newline characters around tags. I'm not
trying to make PHP more sophisticated to compete with them, but it
seemed that just handling trailing newlines would be easy to implement,
doesn't complicate the engine, so I proposed this.
I am encouraged by the supportive people and will try to work on it
again when I have more time to use.
Thanks!
--
Shinji Igarashi
2022年6月8日(水) 21:48 Guilliam Xavier :
>
> Hi,
>
> > https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/8708
>
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/v5le6h/adding_new_closing_tag_for_keeping_trailing/
>
> Thanks for proposing! this "feature" bothered me more than once...
> Maybe just 2 days (of internals and Reddit feedback) is a bit early to
> "give up" (but I won't blame you either).
>
> FWIW, the Twig templating engine has distinct delimiters for output
> ({{ ... }}) and control ({% ... %}), and the former does *not* eat
> newline; for the latter you can use ~%}
> (https://twigfiddle.com/54daye), and there are other "whitespace
> control" options
> (https://twig.symfony.com/doc/3.x/templates.html#whitespace-control).
>
> For PHP, if we could ignore BC, I would rather have ?> not eat
> newline, and add an optional way to do it; but we can't, so I guess
> the opposite (e.g. your =?>) is the best we could hope for.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Guilliam Xavier
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC][Under discussion] Create a global login system for php.net
On 8 June 2022 20:22:46 BST, Aaron Junker wrote: >Hi all, > >I've edited my RFC[1], so it now contains a note that edit.php.net is >currently not in a usable state. > >Besides that, I didn't find any big points that could have been added to the >RFC. > >So, unless a big new discussion starts, I will open votes this Saturday. > >But I have two questions: > >1. What kind of majority in votes will this RFC need to get accepted? Everything is ⅔ now. >2. Am I allowed to vote on my own RFC? If you have voting rights, sure. However, I'm thinking that you're massively underestimating the work that is involved to implement this, and some of it might not be possible (for example coralling dokuwiki to use this style of logging in). Personally, I'm questioning whether it's really worth the effort. I don't think I'll be voting in favour, as I'm going to guess that I'll end up having to support a lot of this. cheers Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC][Under discussion] Create a global login system for php.net
On 08/06/2022 20:22, Aaron Junker wrote: But I have two questions: 1. What kind of majority in votes will this RFC need to get accepted? 2. Am I allowed to vote on my own RFC? While this is a somewhat unusual RFC, because it's a change to the project / infrastructure, not the language itself, it should still follow the rules here: https://wiki.php.net/RFC/voting Question 1 is straight-forward: "The primary vote of an RFC, determining overall acceptance of the proposal, may only have two voting options and requires a 2/3 majority. ... [Secondary] votes may have more than two voting options and may be decided by simple plurality." So the overall RFC requires a two-thirds majority; the others can be simple plurality (but you should probably make that explicit on the voting form). Question 2 is also covered on that page, although the wording is a bit odd. The proposer of the RFC is not *disqualified* from voting, but they are not automatically *eligible* to vote. So, if you can vote on RFCs in general, you can vote on this one. Specifically, as noted at https://wiki.php.net/rfc/howto "Note that RFC karma does not automatically give you karma to vote." Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC][Under discussion] Create a global login system for php.net
Hi all, I've edited my RFC[1], so it now contains a note that edit.php.net is currently not in a usable state. Besides that, I didn't find any big points that could have been added to the RFC. So, unless a big new discussion starts, I will open votes this Saturday. But I have two questions: 1. What kind of majority in votes will this RFC need to get accepted? 2. Am I allowed to vote on my own RFC? Best regards Aaron Junker [1] https://wiki.php.net/rfc/global_login -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 at 20:16, shinji igarashi wrote:
> > declare(ignore_newline_after_close_tag=false);
>
> Thanks for coming up with another idea!
>
> As others have already pointed out, disabling the closing tag from
> eating trailing newline throughout the file would be inconvenient if
> we want to use control statements in the template.
>
> However, we currently only have one closing tag, but we already
> have two opening tags. So, for example, if we use declare to disable
> the newline eating only when closing a PHP block started with ` it can produce the desired output.
>
>
>
> -
>
>
> I'm honestly not sure if adding a declare switch is better received
> than a new closing tag, though.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Shinji Igarashi
>
> 2022年6月8日(水) 12:34 Sara Golemon :
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Robert Landers
> wrote:
> > > FWIW, I think it makes a lot of sense, having used golang's template
> > > language (not everyone is generating HTML with PHP). I think you may
> > > just be dealing with a vocal minority and it would be worth putting to
> > > an actual vote. Even if it fails, we'll learn something the next time
> > > someone wants to change something like this.
> > >
> >
> > While my gut response for the new end tag is in the "no" column, I do
> wonder if we can accommodate "non-html" scenarios in a broader (maybe more
> palatable?) way by assuming that if you want the newline to be respected on
> one line, you probably want it that way for the whole file.
> >
> > > declare(ignore_newline_after_close_tag=false); // defaults to true, i.e
> existing behavior
> >
> > This would avoid any new syntax rules, but still provide the ability for
> php-as-template-engine to behave in the user's preferred mode.
> >
> > -Sara
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
I'm just adding a few cents into this discussion for some inspiration. If
I'm not mistaken, the Twig template engine, for example, has such a
difference integrated in the output tag and the statement tag. The
statement tag ({% %}) behaves as PHP tag, it removes the newline character.
The outputting tag ({{ }}) adds a newline at the end.
See this: https://twigfiddle.com/pto9qx
More info about this here:
https://twig.symfony.com/doc/3.x/templates.html#whitespace-control
So, it is actually important to have such functionality in templates.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
> declare(ignore_newline_after_close_tag=false); Thanks for coming up with another idea! As others have already pointed out, disabling the closing tag from eating trailing newline throughout the file would be inconvenient if we want to use control statements in the template. However, we currently only have one closing tag, but we already have two opening tags. So, for example, if we use declare to disable the newline eating only when closing a PHP block started with ` - I'm honestly not sure if adding a declare switch is better received than a new closing tag, though. Thanks! -- Shinji Igarashi 2022年6月8日(水) 12:34 Sara Golemon : > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Robert Landers > wrote: > > FWIW, I think it makes a lot of sense, having used golang's template > > language (not everyone is generating HTML with PHP). I think you may > > just be dealing with a vocal minority and it would be worth putting to > > an actual vote. Even if it fails, we'll learn something the next time > > someone wants to change something like this. > > > > While my gut response for the new end tag is in the "no" column, I do wonder > if we can accommodate "non-html" scenarios in a broader (maybe more > palatable?) way by assuming that if you want the newline to be respected on > one line, you probably want it that way for the whole file. > > declare(ignore_newline_after_close_tag=false); // defaults to true, i.e > existing behavior > > This would avoid any new syntax rules, but still provide the ability for > php-as-template-engine to behave in the user's preferred mode. > > -Sara -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
Hello! > I think you may just be dealing with a vocal minority and it would be worth > putting to > an actual vote. Even if it fails, we'll learn something the next time > someone wants to change something like this. Thanks for the feedback! In my experience over the years of watching internals, many controversial language changes do not survive the voting. Two Yeses are balanced against one No, so there needs to be overwhelming agreement. Surely it could at least be said that even if it fails, it is easier for someone who later comes up with a similar idea to find past efforts if the RFC is drafted and the results of the voting are there. However, the July 19 Feature Freeze for 8.2 is approaching! So I'll try to write an RFC on this proposal later for 8.3. For now, I will look at the interpreter code and see if I can come up with another proposal and its implementation that is a little less controversial (like constants on traits) until the 8.2 effective deadlines. My ability to write English is very limited, so probably I cannot proceed with multiple proposals in parallel. Thanks! -- Shinji Igarashi 2022年6月8日(水) 0:27 Robert Landers : > > On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 6:47 PM shinji igarashi > wrote: > > > > Hello! > > > > I asked for opinions on reddit also. > > https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/v5le6h/adding_new_closing_tag_for_keeping_trailing/ > > > > Popularity on reddit and acceptance by people with voting rights on > > internals can be different, but it seems that, at least in its current > > form, this proposal would have a hard time winning the vote. > > > > Until I can come up with a stronger persuasion or a nicer way of > > doing this, I don't feel it has a chance to win, so I'm withdrawing > > from this proposal for now and going to work on something else. > > > > Thanks for taking a look! > > > > -- > > Shinji Igarashi > > > > 2022年6月5日(日) 17:23 shinji igarashi : > > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > I'd like to propose adding a new closing tag `=?>` to the language. > > > > > > PHP currently removes the newline character immediately following > > > the closing tag `?>`. > > > > > > With the new closing tag `=?>`, the code should look like this: > > > > > > ``` > > > - > > > - > > > - > > > ``` > > > > > > and the results it produces would be: > > > > > > ``` > > > - 1 > > > - 2 > > > - 3 > > > ``` > > > > > > instead of the following: > > > > > > ``` > > > - 1- 2- 3 > > > ``` > > > > > > This addition requires only a one-line modification to the lexer and > > > doesn't break BC. The proposed patch is here. > > > https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/8708 > > > > > > Before writing an RFC, I would like to hear your input on whether > > > it's worth tackling. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > -- > > > Shinji Igarashi > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > FWIW, I think it makes a lot of sense, having used golang's template > language (not everyone is generating HTML with PHP). I think you may > just be dealing with a vocal minority and it would be worth putting to > an actual vote. Even if it fails, we'll learn something the next time > someone wants to change something like this. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
> Declare statements shouldn't have any impact outside of the file in which > they appear. Declaring strict types doesn't force other classes that > interact with the defined class to also use strict types. A declare to > change how newlines after closing tags are handled within a single file > forces anything that uses the classes/functions defined in that file to > know that it handles them in a possibly different ways. Indeed (via includes)... Also consider this hypothetical example: ``` - 0 - - 4 ``` Note the use of both ?> and =?> *within the same file*; a declare would not allow that. > I personally don't see a need for a new closing tag. I'm not usually swayed > by the "it adds confusion to the language" and would be against removing > such a tag if it existed and that was the reason for removing it. However, > I do think it's something to consider when adding something new to the > language. In this case, I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives, > especially in light of the fact it's really easy to accomplish this without > changes. I personally am generally in favor of removing "magic" stuff (even if this isn't exactly proposing that but to add a "straightforward" alternative). Other example, consider starting from this: ``` - first - foo bar - last ``` Now if you want to "variablize" the `foo` part, just change it to e.g. ``; but for `bar` you have to remember and write e.g. `` (or add a blank line after it [or a trailing space... no, please don't]), only because it happens to be at the end of a line (and don't forget to re-change it if you later append a `qux`)... PS: An[other] argument against could be something like "please don't add more things encouraging the use of PHP as a templating engine (unsafe etc.)", but the main target is *non*-HTML (e.g. Markdown or raw text) templates. -- Guilliam Xavier -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 5:37 AM Claude Pache wrote: > > > > Le 8 juin 2022 à 05:34, Sara Golemon a écrit : > > > > > > > declare(ignore_newline_after_close_tag=false); // defaults to true, i.e > > existing behavior > > > > This would avoid any new syntax rules, but still provide the ability for > > php-as-template-engine to behave in the user's preferred mode. > > > > No, because the user’s preferred mode is not a global one, it is a local > one. You do not want to keep newlines in the following situation: > > ``` > * line 1 > > * line 2 > * line 3 > > * line 4 > ``` > > With a global switch, not only you have failed to solve the real problem > (doing the Right Thing with newlines), but also you have created another > one (looking at the top of the file in order to understand the code). You > have the worst of both world. > > Declare statements shouldn't have any impact outside of the file in which they appear. Declaring strict types doesn't force other classes that interact with the defined class to also use strict types. A declare to change how newlines after closing tags are handled within a single file forces anything that uses the classes/functions defined in that file to know that it handles them in a possibly different ways. I personally don't see a need for a new closing tag. I'm not usually swayed by the "it adds confusion to the language" and would be against removing such a tag if it existed and that was the reason for removing it. However, I do think it's something to consider when adding something new to the language. In this case, I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives, especially in light of the fact it's really easy to accomplish this without changes. > —Claude > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- Chase Peeler chasepee...@gmail.com
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
Hi,
> https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/8708
> https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/v5le6h/adding_new_closing_tag_for_keeping_trailing/
Thanks for proposing! this "feature" bothered me more than once...
Maybe just 2 days (of internals and Reddit feedback) is a bit early to
"give up" (but I won't blame you either).
FWIW, the Twig templating engine has distinct delimiters for output
({{ ... }}) and control ({% ... %}), and the former does *not* eat
newline; for the latter you can use ~%}
(https://twigfiddle.com/54daye), and there are other "whitespace
control" options
(https://twig.symfony.com/doc/3.x/templates.html#whitespace-control).
For PHP, if we could ignore BC, I would rather have ?> not eat
newline, and add an optional way to do it; but we can't, so I guess
the opposite (e.g. your =?>) is the best we could hope for.
Regards,
--
Guilliam Xavier
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
> Le 8 juin 2022 à 05:34, Sara Golemon a écrit : > > > declare(ignore_newline_after_close_tag=false); // defaults to true, i.e > existing behavior > > This would avoid any new syntax rules, but still provide the ability for > php-as-template-engine to behave in the user's preferred mode. > No, because the user’s preferred mode is not a global one, it is a local one. You do not want to keep newlines in the following situation: ``` * line 1 * line 2 * line 3 * line 4 ``` With a global switch, not only you have failed to solve the real problem (doing the Right Thing with newlines), but also you have created another one (looking at the top of the file in order to understand the code). You have the worst of both world. —Claude -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Adding new closing tag =?> for keeping trailing newline
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 08:15 CHU Zhaowei, wrote: > > > declare(ignore_newline_after_close_tag=false); // defaults to true, i.e > > existing behavior > > > This would avoid any new syntax rules, but still provide the ability for > > php-as-template-engine to behave in the user's preferred mode. > > I thought it's a consensus on internal that we should avoid such runtime > configuration that can affect code behaviour, otherwise we have a long list > to check when we debug or ask for help. Yeah I know we already have a lot, > and it's a easy and straightforward solution to add a switch for this kind > of issues, but we should be careful to introduce a new one. (Personlly I > was a supporter for runtime configuration as well, but I'm not able to > convince myself to ignore or defeat that argument.) > That would be a top-of-file `declare`, not a runtime configuration. >
