Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 1:06 AM, Kris Craig kris.cr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: On 8 Jul 2014, at 15:48, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: I've just voted no for this, because it introduces a tiny BC break. Now, I realize this is a tiny BC break, but it is just *those* that drive people nuts when upgrading. There is so much non-public code - a cursor check of Symfony and ZF is not representative. It is a tiny BC break and it’s for PHP NEXT (i.e 6 or 7), not 5.6. Why not? It’s a tiny change which will bother some people but make everyone else’s life easier. Voted +1, obviously for having that in php6, not 5.7. This tiny BC is then more than OK. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Also +1. Major version increments always have BC breaks, and not just tiny ones, either. +1 as well. For a next major, every tip making things cleaner is welcome, and this is little BC. Julien -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On Mon, 7 Jul 2014, Nikita Popov wrote: Hi internals! I've started the vote on the Uniform Variable Syntax RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/uniform_variable_syntax#vote You can review the discussion about this RFC here: http://markmail.org/message/mr4ihbubfbdxygci The vote requires a 2/3 majority and is planned to end on 2014-07-14. The RFC targets PHP 6. I've just voted no for this, because it introduces a tiny BC break. Now, I realize this is a tiny BC break, but it is just *those* that drive people nuts when upgrading. There is so much non-public code - a cursor check of Symfony and ZF is not representative. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On 8 Jul 2014, at 15:48, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: I've just voted no for this, because it introduces a tiny BC break. Now, I realize this is a tiny BC break, but it is just *those* that drive people nuts when upgrading. There is so much non-public code - a cursor check of Symfony and ZF is not representative. It is a tiny BC break and it’s for PHP NEXT (i.e 6 or 7), not 5.6. Why not? It’s a tiny change which will bother some people but make everyone else’s life easier. -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: On 8 Jul 2014, at 15:48, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: I've just voted no for this, because it introduces a tiny BC break. Now, I realize this is a tiny BC break, but it is just *those* that drive people nuts when upgrading. There is so much non-public code - a cursor check of Symfony and ZF is not representative. It is a tiny BC break and it’s for PHP NEXT (i.e 6 or 7), not 5.6. Why not? It’s a tiny change which will bother some people but make everyone else’s life easier. Voted +1, obviously for having that in php6, not 5.7. This tiny BC is then more than OK. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: On 8 Jul 2014, at 15:48, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: I've just voted no for this, because it introduces a tiny BC break. Now, I realize this is a tiny BC break, but it is just *those* that drive people nuts when upgrading. There is so much non-public code - a cursor check of Symfony and ZF is not representative. It is a tiny BC break and it’s for PHP NEXT (i.e 6 or 7), not 5.6. Why not? It’s a tiny change which will bother some people but make everyone else’s life easier. Voted +1, obviously for having that in php6, not 5.7. This tiny BC is then more than OK. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Also +1. Major version increments always have BC breaks, and not just tiny ones, either. --Kris
[PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
Hi internals! I've started the vote on the Uniform Variable Syntax RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/uniform_variable_syntax#vote You can review the discussion about this RFC here: http://markmail.org/message/mr4ihbubfbdxygci The vote requires a 2/3 majority and is planned to end on 2014-07-14. The RFC targets PHP 6. Thanks, Nikita
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
Hey: On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 10:18 PM, Nikita Popov nikita@gmail.com wrote: Hi internals! I've started the vote on the Uniform Variable Syntax RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/uniform_variable_syntax#vote You can review the discussion about this RFC here: http://markmail.org/message/mr4ihbubfbdxygci The vote requires a 2/3 majority and is planned to end on 2014-07-14. The RFC targets PHP 6. sorry for didn't read the RFC before, but I can not vote for yes.. here are some words in RFC: 1. The current patch introduces a new “write context” issue. Namely ($foo)['bar'] = 'baz' will not behave this same was as $foo['bar'] = 'baz'. In the former case an undefined variable notice will be thrown if $foo does not exist, whereas the latter does not throw a notice. 2. As these changes only apply to some very rarely used syntax, the breakage seems acceptable for PHP 6. I don't think we should introduce a new thing which is not perfect or confused.. it looks like we fixed a mess with a new mess. it make me think we should : don't fix it until it is broken thanks Thanks, Nikita -- Laruence Xinchen Hui http://www.laruence.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On 7 Jul 2014, at 15:42, Laruence larue...@php.net wrote: 1. The current patch introduces a new “write context” issue. Namely ($foo)['bar'] = 'baz' will not behave this same was as $foo['bar'] = 'baz'. In the former case an undefined variable notice will be thrown if $foo does not exist, whereas the latter does not throw a notice. 2. As these changes only apply to some very rarely used syntax, the breakage seems acceptable for PHP 6. I don't think we should introduce a new thing which is not perfect or confused.. it looks like we fixed a mess with a new mess. it make me think we should : don't fix it until it is broken” We are fixing what is broken here; the variable syntax is counter-intuitive at the moment, and they make the syntax more consistent overall. Also, parentheses in PHP are always a source of issues. I don’t think they’ll ever quite work properly unless we switch to using an AST-based parser someday. -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 10:46 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: On 7 Jul 2014, at 15:42, Laruence larue...@php.net wrote: 1. The current patch introduces a new “write context” issue. Namely ($foo)['bar'] = 'baz' will not behave this same was as $foo['bar'] = 'baz'. In the former case an undefined variable notice will be thrown if $foo does not exist, whereas the latter does not throw a notice. 2. As these changes only apply to some very rarely used syntax, the breakage seems acceptable for PHP 6. I don't think we should introduce a new thing which is not perfect or confused.. it looks like we fixed a mess with a new mess. it make me think we should : don't fix it until it is broken” We are fixing what is broken here; the variable syntax is counter-intuitive at the moment, and they make the syntax more consistent overall. Also, parentheses in PHP are always a source of issues. I don’t think they’ll ever quite work properly unless we switch to using an AST-based parser someday. then we won't need to temporarily fix it.. anyway, it's just my 2 cents thanks -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- Laruence Xinchen Hui http://www.laruence.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
Hey: On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 10:46 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: On 7 Jul 2014, at 15:42, Laruence larue...@php.net wrote: 1. The current patch introduces a new “write context” issue. Namely ($foo)['bar'] = 'baz' will not behave this same was as $foo['bar'] = 'baz'. In the former case an undefined variable notice will be thrown if $foo does not exist, whereas the latter does not throw a notice. 2. As these changes only apply to some very rarely used syntax, the breakage seems acceptable for PHP 6. I don't think we should introduce a new thing which is not perfect or confused.. it looks like we fixed a mess with a new mess. it make me think we should : don't fix it until it is broken” We are fixing what is broken here; the variable syntax is counter-intuitive at the moment, and they make the syntax more consistent overall. Also, parentheses in PHP are always a source of issues. I don’t think they’ll ever quite work properly unless we switch to using an AST-based parser someday. I've change my opinion. I will vote for yes... thanks -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- Laruence Xinchen Hui http://www.laruence.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On 07/07/2014 16:54, Laruence wrote: On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 10:46 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: On 7 Jul 2014, at 15:42, Laruence larue...@php.net wrote: 1. The current patch introduces a new “write context” issue. Namely ($foo)['bar'] = 'baz' will not behave this same was as $foo['bar'] = 'baz'. In the former case an undefined variable notice will be thrown if $foo does not exist, whereas the latter does not throw a notice. 2. As these changes only apply to some very rarely used syntax, the breakage seems acceptable for PHP 6. I don't think we should introduce a new thing which is not perfect or confused.. it looks like we fixed a mess with a new mess. it make me think we should : don't fix it until it is broken” We are fixing what is broken here; the variable syntax is counter-intuitive at the moment, and they make the syntax more consistent overall. Also, parentheses in PHP are always a source of issues. I don’t think they’ll ever quite work properly unless we switch to using an AST-based parser someday. then we won't need to temporarily fix it.. anyway, it's just my 2 cents While I deeply agree with you (introducing something we will need to fix later is not a good idea), this RFC fixes a lot of real, concrete and immediate issues that are blocking for the emergence of new tools (for example, a grammar of PHP that can be used by AST-compliant tools). Moreover, it defines a clear base for the semantics of variables. Known issues are well-spotted and define the very next steps of the work. Parentheses are interpreted in various ways according to the language and the area. Thus, a lot of (smart and calm) discussions will be required. However, this RFC is targeting PHP6 (and not 7… just kidding… or not… o_O), so we have time to fix the next spotted issues before the final release. Let's cut the giant task into small ones. I think this is the approach of Nikita since he has honestly exposed the known issues. Cheers :-). -- Ivan Enderlin Developer of Hoa http://hoa-project.net/ PhD. student at DISC/Femto-ST (Vesontio) and INRIA (Cassis) http://disc.univ-fcomte.fr/ and http://www.inria.fr/ Member of HTML and WebApps Working Group of W3C http://w3.org/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Uniform Variable Syntax
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Nikita Popov nikita@gmail.com wrote: Hi internals! I've started the vote on the Uniform Variable Syntax RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/uniform_variable_syntax#vote You can review the discussion about this RFC here: http://markmail.org/message/mr4ihbubfbdxygci The vote requires a 2/3 majority and is planned to end on 2014-07-14. The RFC targets PHP 6. Thanks, Nikita Hi, just a small note, there is an empty todo block which probably should be removed: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/uniform_variable_syntax#todo -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
