Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
Awesome, that clear is up pretty well. I just wanted to get this well cleared up, and since this vote ad its various quirks, why not just sort out all issues once and for all. Thanks for the replies. -- Rafael Dohms PHP Evangelist and Community Leader http://www.rafaeldohms.com.br http://www.phpsp.org.br -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
hi Lars, On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Lars Strojny l...@strojny.net wrote: Hi Rafael, hope it’s ok I've reopened the vote temporarily, but you’ve got the missing vote. You have what? That's not that ok actually Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] 2/3 = ??? Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Mon, May 21, 2012 5:22 pm, Sanford Whiteman wrote: Ah, this is why one should trust a coder over a butler: http://www.ask.com/answers/112530521/5-people-are-voting-what-is-2-3-s-of-a-majority Regarding the 2/3 super-majority rule... I thought I'd check the non-authorative but always interesting wikipedia article... Apparently, we are not the only ones confused by edge cases: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermajority -- brain cancer update: http://richardlynch.blogspot.com/search/label/brain%20tumor Donate: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclickhosted_button_id=FS9NLTNEEKWBE -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] 2/3 = ??? Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Sanford Whiteman swhitemanlistens-softw...@cypressintegrated.com wrote: Apparently, we are not the only ones confused by edge cases: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermajority Can you point to where there's any suggestion of using the ceiling (rounding up) instead of requiring whole persons? In fact, the Wikipedia page matter-of-factly says ...two thirds (currently 34) of the states -- S. I'm not sure I understand where the conflict is. 2/3 * 50 == 33 1/3. Therefore, 33 states would be just below the required 2/3, while 34 states would be just above it. So the 34 figure you quoted seems to match this perfectly. The article does mention some ambiguity, but that's pertaining to whether the total includes everyone who *can* vote or just everyone who *did* vote. As far as I know, that's not relevant to this discussion. --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] 2/3 = ??? Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
I'm not sure I understand where the conflict is. 2/3 * 50 == 33 1/3. Therefore, 33 states would be just below the required 2/3, while 34 states would be just above it. So the 34 figure you quoted seems to match this perfectly. The article does mention some ambiguity, but that's pertaining to whether the total includes everyone who *can* vote or just everyone who *did* vote. As far as I know, that's not relevant to this discussion. I agree, don't see any relevant edges. From what I can see in the bylaws for writing bylaws world, it is understood that you must have whole persons unless you *specifically* make an exception that you will use the ceiling. -- S. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] 2/3 = ??? Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Tue, May 22, 2012 1:51 pm, Sanford Whiteman wrote: Apparently, we are not the only ones confused by edge cases: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermajority Can you point to where there's any suggestion of using the ceiling (rounding up) instead of requiring whole persons? In fact, the Wikipedia page matter-of-factly says ...two thirds (currently 34) of the states I should have been more clear: Whether that article addresses rounding up, down or sideways, it's an awfully long article for what should be a fairly simple thing... I know I started zoning out long before the halfway mark. I certainly didn't do the math for every example from every country/quorum/entity... Actually, if we used the abstain == no logic of some bodies, I don't think any of our RFCs would pass :-) -- brain cancer update: http://richardlynch.blogspot.com/search/label/brain%20tumor Donate: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclickhosted_button_id=FS9NLTNEEKWBE -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] 2/3 = ??? Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
Whether that article addresses rounding up, down or sideways, it's an awfully long article for what should be a fairly simple thing... It does seem long-winded toward the top. I guess it's notable that in all that text, it doesn't even note the floor/ceiling concept. I interpret the absence as because it's obvious, but you could argue (given the inanity of the Ask.com answers) that isn't obvious enough to be left out of the 'pedia of record. Maybe someone on Internals is also an active Wiki editor. -- S. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
Hi Rafael, hope it’s ok I've reopened the vote temporarily, but you’ve got the missing vote. Am 21.05.2012 um 01:05 schrieb Rafael Dohms: On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: See the previous mails, as long as other voters agree to change their votes to empty only, we are done. If my math does not fail me, we needed one more vote to have the 2/3 mentioned. Anthony has changed his vote, i think we are good to go. 20 votes = 2/3 = 13.3 So if we round down, the vote originally passed, and in any case Anthony makes it 14, so that should resolve any doubts Also, for future votes we need to make this rule clear: does 13.3 mean we need 13 votes or 14 votes to pass? In which case, this whole thread might actually have been for nothing since the vote had already passed. -- Rafael Dohms PHP Evangelist and Community Leader http://www.rafaeldohms.com.br http://www.phpsp.org.br -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Lars Strojny l...@strojny.net wrote: Hi Rafael, hope it’s ok I've reopened the vote temporarily, but you’ve got the missing vote. Even better, get this on clean papers. thanks. But i would still like Pierre and others involved with voting to clear up the point about rounding up or down. -- Rafael Dohms PHP Evangelist and Community Leader http://www.rafaeldohms.com.br http://www.phpsp.org.br -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Mon, 21 May 2012 23:18:03 +0200, Rafael Dohms lis...@rafaeldohms.com.br wrote: On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Lars Strojny l...@strojny.net wrote: hope it’s ok I've reopened the vote temporarily, but you’ve got the missing vote. Even better, get this on clean papers. thanks. But i would still like Pierre and others involved with voting to clear up the point about rounding up or down. There is nothing unclear about a 2/3 majority is required. 2/3 of all the votes need not be a integer, but that doesn't mean you can't compare it to an integer. If this still doesn't answer your question, please refer to how this works in virtually every election in the world. -- Gustavo Lopes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Gustavo Lopes glo...@nebm.ist.utl.pt wrote: There is nothing unclear about a 2/3 majority is required. 2/3 of all the votes need not be a integer, but that doesn't mean you can't compare it to an integer. If this still doesn't answer your question, please refer to how this works in virtually every election in the world. So we are counting half people now, good i hear Tyrion the Imp going around internals, good. But great that is an answer, an edgy one with unneeded aggressiveness in my opinion, but i guess someone had to ask and deal with the attitude. I'll just step away again. -- Rafael Dohms PHP Evangelist and Community Leader http://www.rafaeldohms.com.br http://www.phpsp.org.br -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Mon, 2012-05-21 at 23:48 +0200, Rafael Dohms wrote: So we are counting half people now, good i hear Tyrion the Imp going around internals, good. I tried to stay away from voting but well, simple math: Assume 5 votes. Then 3 is less then 2/3 of all votes and 4 is at least 2/3 (more mathematical: x = 2/3 * 5). No need to count half people or such. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Rafael Dohms lis...@rafaeldohms.com.brwrote: On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Gustavo Lopes glo...@nebm.ist.utl.pt wrote: There is nothing unclear about a 2/3 majority is required. 2/3 of all the votes need not be a integer, but that doesn't mean you can't compare it to an integer. If this still doesn't answer your question, please refer to how this works in virtually every election in the world. So we are counting half people now, good i hear Tyrion the Imp going around internals, good. But great that is an answer, an edgy one with unneeded aggressiveness in my opinion, but i guess someone had to ask and deal with the attitude. I'll just step away again. -- Rafael Dohms PHP Evangelist and Community Leader http://www.rafaeldohms.com.br http://www.phpsp.org.br -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php I think what Stas was saying is that rounding is not actually necessary when 2/3 results in a non-integer because the number of people voting will always be an integer regardless. In other words, because the requirement is it must be greater than or equal to as opposed to just must be equal to, then it's really a non-issue. For example, let's say that 10 people are voting. 2/3 majority is required. 6 people vote yes and 4 people vote no. That's 60% Because 60% 60.66...%, the vote fails. On the other hand, if 7 people vote yes and 3 vote no, then we're at 70%. And since 70% = 60.66...%, the vote passes. Notice how, in both cases, we did not need to round either of the numbers to do the comparison. It's either greater than or equal to the requirement or it's not. That being said, yeah the response you got did seem a bit overly hostile IMHO. --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
Ah, this is why one should trust a coder over a butler: http://www.ask.com/answers/112530521/5-people-are-voting-what-is-2-3-s-of-a-majority Ugh. -- S. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Sanford Whiteman swhitemanlistens-softw...@cypressintegrated.com wrote: Ah, this is why one should trust a coder over a butler: http://www.ask.com/answers/112530521/5-people-are-voting-what-is-2-3-s-of-a-majority Ugh. -- S. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Lol well I guess that answers another question I had: What kind of person still uses Ask Jeeves?! (Answer: A really, really stupid person) --Kris
[PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
Hi internals! As per Pierres request I'm posting a new voting thread for my empty() RFC. During discussions on IRC it turned out that most people would prefer to allow expressions for empty(), but not for isset(), that's why the vote now has three options: * Both empty() and isset() should allow expressions * Only empty() should allow them * None of them should accept expressions https://wiki.php.net/rfc/empty_isset_exprs#vote Thanks, Nikita -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Vote change for empty() RFC
* None of them should accept expressions just to be clear, this means keeping the current behavior as is. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
