Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
I've missed out on most of this discussion via email, bit I've watching the
threads anyway. It seems to me the main debate is about backwards
compatibility, and where the classes belong.
My reason for starting this thread was not really out of necessity, but
merely to argue semantics. So if it is not worth it then it is not worth it.
However, given that some people here appear receptive to the idea I'd like
to support my original suggestion of aliasing by comparing the concept to
JavaScript, where by the root namespace is an alias of the window object
(or vice versa). It could be used as a permanent alias, or only as a
solution for phasing out the global namespace in preparation for PHP8 in X
number of years.
On 4 Jun 2015 9:02 am, Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net wrote:
Hi all,
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 1:33 AM, Dominic Grostate
codekest...@googlemail.com wrote:
Has there been any discussion or consideration towards migrating or at
least aliasing all built in classes to a Php vendor namespace?
Not any that's led to a consensus.
Personally, I like the idea of moving EVERYTHING to PHP\ at once and
building in an automatic fallback, so an app could do:
?php
$dt = new DateTime(...); // uses builtin DataTime via fallback to PHP
namespace
Or:
?php
class DateTime { ... }
$mydt = new DateTime(...); // Uses user supplied DateTime
$pdt = new PHP\DateTime(...); // Uses builtin DateTime
It's acceptable option, but I prefer explicit declaration for clean root
namespace.
Possibly paired with the ability to import a NS to root:
?php
use PHP as \;
$pdt = new DateTime(...); // Uses builtin DateTime from root namespace
+1 for as \
It achieves both clean namespace and compatibility at the same time.
It opens door for easier API version up also. Automatic fallback disturbs
this.
Regards,
--
Yasuo Ohgaki
yohg...@ohgaki.net
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
2015-06-12 10:10 GMT+02:00 Tony Marston tonymars...@hotmail.com: And what is the benefit in userland? That is the question. I think clean global namespace isn't enough argument, we can exist in the current situation and considering the fact that most of the new PHP applications have their own namespaces, it could probably make more sense to reserve global namespace as *the PHP namespace*. Regards, Kubo2 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Hi, 2015-06-15 16:09 GMT+02:00 Jakub Kubíček kelerest...@gmail.com: I think clean global namespace isn't enough argument, we can exist in the current situation and considering the fact that most of the new PHP applications have their own namespaces, it could probably make more sense to reserve global namespace as *the PHP namespace*. I don't know how well known that page is, but the manual already hints towards php ruling the root-namespace: PHP owns the top-level namespace but tries to find decent descriptive names and avoid any obvious clashes. http://php.net/manual/en/userlandnaming.rules.php On an unrelated note: http://php.net/manual/en/userlandnaming.tips.php should hint towards real namespaces. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Sebastian B.-Hagensen wrote: On an unrelated note: http://php.net/manual/en/userlandnaming.tips.php should hint towards real namespaces. There is already a respective ticket: https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=69369. :) -- Christoph M. Becker -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Yasuo Ohgaki wrote in message news:CAGa2bXaMoHDVoZRNNPEEM--km-in4tSyux=tub0paes4tww...@mail.gmail.com... Hi Tony, On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Tony Marston tonymars...@hotmail.com wrote: Yasuo Ohgaki wrote in message news:CAGa2bXZvuqV4Kwru+wUL-bfTb9_tnv=l16reu-+w+uajx4h...@mail.gmail.com... Hi Jakub, On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Jakub Kubícek kelerest...@gmail.com wrote: This is weird and ugly what you're fabricating here. The PHP classes should be all in global namespace. I am really against some namespacing of them. It may seems weird if you aren't familiar with languages support this kind of feature. However, you'll find many languages support this or similar. JavaScript is one of them. JavaScript allows to override any functions, for example. It's works like importing other namespace function into root. i.e. Provide different feature with the same name. For long term PHP evolution, having ability to import some namespace into root namespace is great feature. i.e. API/Module version up. We can provide both old and new during migration. Use of namespace is better approach because it may give us super clean global namespace also. Regards, -- Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net The fact that other languages have this feature should not be a reason to add it to PHP, especially as it would provide a huge BC break with absolutely no practical, only theoretical, benefits. It does not create huge BC. It's matter of adding a line for namespace or having a default namespace setting. Huge or not, it is still a BC break. And what is the benefit in userland? -- Tony Marston -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Yasuo Ohgaki wrote in message news:CAGa2bXZvuqV4Kwru+wUL-bfTb9_tnv=l16reu-+w+uajx4h...@mail.gmail.com... Hi Jakub, On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Jakub Kubícek kelerest...@gmail.com wrote: This is weird and ugly what you're fabricating here. The PHP classes should be all in global namespace. I am really against some namespacing of them. It may seems weird if you aren't familiar with languages support this kind of feature. However, you'll find many languages support this or similar. JavaScript is one of them. JavaScript allows to override any functions, for example. It's works like importing other namespace function into root. i.e. Provide different feature with the same name. For long term PHP evolution, having ability to import some namespace into root namespace is great feature. i.e. API/Module version up. We can provide both old and new during migration. Use of namespace is better approach because it may give us super clean global namespace also. Regards, -- Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net The fact that other languages have this feature should not be a reason to add it to PHP, especially as it would provide a huge BC break with absolutely no practical, only theoretical, benefits. -- Tony Marston -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Hi Tony, On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Tony Marston tonymars...@hotmail.com wrote: Yasuo Ohgaki wrote in message news:CAGa2bXZvuqV4Kwru+wUL-bfTb9_tnv=l16reu-+w+uajx4h...@mail.gmail.com... Hi Jakub, On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Jakub Kubícek kelerest...@gmail.com wrote: This is weird and ugly what you're fabricating here. The PHP classes should be all in global namespace. I am really against some namespacing of them. It may seems weird if you aren't familiar with languages support this kind of feature. However, you'll find many languages support this or similar. JavaScript is one of them. JavaScript allows to override any functions, for example. It's works like importing other namespace function into root. i.e. Provide different feature with the same name. For long term PHP evolution, having ability to import some namespace into root namespace is great feature. i.e. API/Module version up. We can provide both old and new during migration. Use of namespace is better approach because it may give us super clean global namespace also. Regards, -- Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net The fact that other languages have this feature should not be a reason to add it to PHP, especially as it would provide a huge BC break with absolutely no practical, only theoretical, benefits. It does not create huge BC. It's matter of adding a line for namespace or having a default namespace setting. Regards, -- Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net
Fwd: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
/cc-ing internals, as I sent the message privately to Yasuo by mistake. -- Forwarded message -- From: Jakub Kubíček kelerest...@gmail.com Date: 2015-06-11 0:40 GMT+02:00 Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace To: Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net Hi. This is weird and ugly what you're fabricating here. The PHP classes should be all in global namespace. I am really against some namespacing of them. My € 0.02 Regards Kubo2 2015-06-04 23:17 GMT+02:00 Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net: Hi Marc, On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Marc Bennewitz dev@mabe.berlin wrote: This one is not compatible with current code as you have to alias the PHP namespace to the root one before using full classes like \DateTime. Right. We are better to have PHP namespace for internal classes/functions first, then introduce as \ few years later. i.e. PHP classes/functions exist in both \ and \php namespace during migration period or we may user INI switch for migration. PS: I like a lower case php much more than upper case PHP ;) I'm neutral on this :) Regards, -- Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Hi Jakub, On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Jakub Kubíček kelerest...@gmail.com wrote: This is weird and ugly what you're fabricating here. The PHP classes should be all in global namespace. I am really against some namespacing of them. It may seems weird if you aren't familiar with languages support this kind of feature. However, you'll find many languages support this or similar. JavaScript is one of them. JavaScript allows to override any functions, for example. It's works like importing other namespace function into root. i.e. Provide different feature with the same name. For long term PHP evolution, having ability to import some namespace into root namespace is great feature. i.e. API/Module version up. We can provide both old and new during migration. Use of namespace is better approach because it may give us super clean global namespace also. Regards, -- Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Hi Marc, On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Marc Bennewitz dev@mabe.berlin wrote: This one is not compatible with current code as you have to alias the PHP namespace to the root one before using full classes like \DateTime. Right. We are better to have PHP namespace for internal classes/functions first, then introduce as \ few years later. i.e. PHP classes/functions exist in both \ and \php namespace during migration period or we may user INI switch for migration. PS: I like a lower case php much more than upper case PHP ;) I'm neutral on this :) Regards, -- Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
On 06/04/2015 10:01 AM, Yasuo Ohgaki wrote:
Hi all,
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 1:33 AM, Dominic Grostate
codekest...@googlemail.com wrote:
Has there been any discussion or consideration towards migrating or at
least aliasing all built in classes to a Php vendor namespace?
Not any that's led to a consensus.
Personally, I like the idea of moving EVERYTHING to PHP\ at once and
building in an automatic fallback, so an app could do:
?php
$dt = new DateTime(...); // uses builtin DataTime via fallback to PHP
namespace
Or:
?php
class DateTime { ... }
$mydt = new DateTime(...); // Uses user supplied DateTime
$pdt = new PHP\DateTime(...); // Uses builtin DateTime
It's acceptable option, but I prefer explicit declaration for clean root
namespace.
Possibly paired with the ability to import a NS to root:
?php
use PHP as \;
$pdt = new DateTime(...); // Uses builtin DateTime from root namespace
+1 for as \
It achieves both clean namespace and compatibility at the same time.
It opens door for easier API version up also. Automatic fallback disturbs
this.
This one is not compatible with current code as you have to alias the
PHP namespace to the root one before using full classes like \DateTime.
PS: I like a lower case php much more than upper case PHP ;)
Regards,
--
Yasuo Ohgaki
yohg...@ohgaki.net
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Hi all,
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 1:33 AM, Dominic Grostate
codekest...@googlemail.com wrote:
Has there been any discussion or consideration towards migrating or at
least aliasing all built in classes to a Php vendor namespace?
Not any that's led to a consensus.
Personally, I like the idea of moving EVERYTHING to PHP\ at once and
building in an automatic fallback, so an app could do:
?php
$dt = new DateTime(...); // uses builtin DataTime via fallback to PHP
namespace
Or:
?php
class DateTime { ... }
$mydt = new DateTime(...); // Uses user supplied DateTime
$pdt = new PHP\DateTime(...); // Uses builtin DateTime
It's acceptable option, but I prefer explicit declaration for clean root
namespace.
Possibly paired with the ability to import a NS to root:
?php
use PHP as \;
$pdt = new DateTime(...); // Uses builtin DateTime from root namespace
+1 for as \
It achieves both clean namespace and compatibility at the same time.
It opens door for easier API version up also. Automatic fallback disturbs
this.
Regards,
--
Yasuo Ohgaki
yohg...@ohgaki.net
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Dominic Grostate wrote on 03/06/2015 09:33: Hi, I couldn't find any information on this elsewhere, or perhaps I didn't look hard enough. Its been bugging me a while though so I though I would ask. Has there been any discussion or consideration towards migrating or at least aliasing all built in classes to a Php vendor namespace? For aesthetics if nothing else. The PHP namespace (and all sub-namespaces thereof) is officially reserved for internal language use, but to date there has been no comprehensive plan of how to lay it out... -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
AFAIK the PHP namespace is the root one. Lorenzo 2015-06-03 10:33 GMT+02:00 Dominic Grostate codekest...@googlemail.com: Hi, I couldn't find any information on this elsewhere, or perhaps I didn't look hard enough. Its been bugging me a while though so I though I would ask. Has there been any discussion or consideration towards migrating or at least aliasing all built in classes to a Php vendor namespace? For aesthetics if nothing else.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Yes, however for consistency, I personally like the idea of using a longer namespace over prefixed class names. The most relevant example being the SPL data structures. For instance SplStack might come under Php\Collection\Stack. As far as I can tell there is a fair amount of fear of adding new native classes in light of BC issues. But I have yet to see anyone claim the Php vendor namespace for themselves, so it might provide for future extensions. Dominic On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 09:35 Lorenzo Fontana fontanalor...@gmail.com wrote: AFAIK the PHP namespace is the root one. Lorenzo 2015-06-03 10:33 GMT+02:00 Dominic Grostate codekest...@googlemail.com: Hi, I couldn't find any information on this elsewhere, or perhaps I didn't look hard enough. Its been bugging me a while though so I though I would ask. Has there been any discussion or consideration towards migrating or at least aliasing all built in classes to a Php vendor namespace? For aesthetics if nothing else.
[PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
Hi, I couldn't find any information on this elsewhere, or perhaps I didn't look hard enough. Its been bugging me a while though so I though I would ask. Has there been any discussion or consideration towards migrating or at least aliasing all built in classes to a Php vendor namespace? For aesthetics if nothing else.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Migrating PHP classes to built in namespace
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 1:33 AM, Dominic Grostate
codekest...@googlemail.com wrote:
Has there been any discussion or consideration towards migrating or at
least aliasing all built in classes to a Php vendor namespace?
Not any that's led to a consensus.
Personally, I like the idea of moving EVERYTHING to PHP\ at once and
building in an automatic fallback, so an app could do:
?php
$dt = new DateTime(...); // uses builtin DataTime via fallback to PHP namespace
Or:
?php
class DateTime { ... }
$mydt = new DateTime(...); // Uses user supplied DateTime
$pdt = new PHP\DateTime(...); // Uses builtin DateTime
Possibly paired with the ability to import a NS to root:
?php
use PHP as \;
$pdt = new DateTime(...); // Uses builtin DateTime from root namespace
I don't feel strongly about any of this though, so I'm not personally
inclined to push any RFC to make it happen.
-Sara
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