Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Sebastian Bergmann]

Am 26.10.2017 um 13:31 schrieb Florian Anderiasch:
> Mailing lists in general are fine, the problem at hand really is the
> php.net mail infrastructure, so I'd suggest sticking to solving that
> problem.

+1

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Florian Anderiasch]

On 26.10.2017 09:23, Alexander Lisachenko wrote:
> Organizing internals in this way could give a chance for community to grow,
> because everyone knows how to raise an issue on GitHub and how to
> contribute to the documentation/RFC.
> 
> GitHub also provides flexible way to subscribe to repo/issues/summons.
> Maybe it's a good time to move internals to the public open-source system?

Mailing lists in general are fine, the problem at hand really is the
php.net mail infrastructure, so I'd suggest sticking to solving that
problem.

If you want to abandon email as an official discussion medium for this
project, please write up a RFC - https://wiki.php.net/rfc

Greetings,
Florian

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Alexander Lisachenko]

Hi, internals!

Just quick idea: what about moving from old-school mailing list with
unclear subscription logic and ugly interface to the RFC project on GitHub?
Maybe https://github.com/php/rfc or similar.
There are cases when language developers actively use GitHub for
maintaining RFC-s, label them and review directly in github issues. For
example, https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs

Organizing internals in this way could give a chance for community to grow,
because everyone knows how to raise an issue on GitHub and how to
contribute to the documentation/RFC.

GitHub also provides flexible way to subscribe to repo/issues/summons.
Maybe it's a good time to move internals to the public open-source system?

Best regards, Alexander

2017-10-26 1:28 GMT+03:00 Tom Samplonius :

>
> > On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:17 PM, Aidan Woods  wrote:
> >
> >> anyways, don't reject mailing-list messages
> >
> > I don't reject the messages, Google rejects the messages because of
> failed
> > DMARC requirements. See support[.]google[.]com/mail/answer/2451690
> >
> > The error occurs when the php mailing list attempts to forward messages
> > from a domain which has a (likey strict) DMARC policy, and sends emails
> as
> > if it was the sender from the domain holding that policy.
> >
> > In any case, despite failed delivery due to the policy being an issue –
> it
> > would be great if I wouldn't be unsubscribed from the mailing list
> because
> > of an error that has nothing to do with me 路‍♂️
>
>   I’m using GSuite for email, and I’ve never received a warning from the
> php.net mail system that mail was bouncing anytime in the past two years,
> nor have I been automatically unsubscribed.
>
>   That said, email is a lot harder than it looks.
>
>
> Tom



2017-10-25 17:30 GMT+03:00 Sara Golemon :

> Quick show of hands: Who's had a "looks like spam" bounce from php.net
> mail servers in the past... lets say the past month.
> Or how about the fact that new users tend to have a very hard time
> even subscribing to this list?
> This isn't directed at any one person because AFAICT, the maintainer
> of those systems is "nobody".
> Is it time to pick someone to actually maintain that pile of mierde?
> Maybe replace the pieces that haven't worked since the 90s?
>
> Fed up with something this basic not working,
> -Sara
>
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> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Tom Samplonius]

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:17 PM, Aidan Woods  wrote:
> 
>> anyways, don't reject mailing-list messages
> 
> I don't reject the messages, Google rejects the messages because of failed
> DMARC requirements. See support[.]google[.]com/mail/answer/2451690
> 
> The error occurs when the php mailing list attempts to forward messages
> from a domain which has a (likey strict) DMARC policy, and sends emails as
> if it was the sender from the domain holding that policy.
> 
> In any case, despite failed delivery due to the policy being an issue – it
> would be great if I wouldn't be unsubscribed from the mailing list because
> of an error that has nothing to do with me 路‍♂️

  I’m using GSuite for email, and I’ve never received a warning from the 
php.net mail system that mail was bouncing anytime in the past two years, nor 
have I been automatically unsubscribed.  

  That said, email is a lot harder than it looks.


Tom

smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Aidan Woods]

> anyways, don't reject mailing-list messages

I don't reject the messages, Google rejects the messages because of failed
DMARC requirements. See support[.]google[.]com/mail/answer/2451690

The error occurs when the php mailing list attempts to forward messages
from a domain which has a (likey strict) DMARC policy, and sends emails as
if it was the sender from the domain holding that policy.

In any case, despite failed delivery due to the policy being an issue – it
would be great if I wouldn't be unsubscribed from the mailing list because
of an error that has nothing to do with me 路‍♂️

On 25 October 2017 at 21:22, Helmut K. C. Tessarek 
wrote:

> On 2017-10-25 15:38, Aidan Woods wrote:
> > I occasionally get emails from the mailing list bot warning I'll be
> > auto-unsubscribed because messages it is sending to me are are bouncing.
> > (It sends me back the bounce notification it received, so I can see that
> > the cause is failed DMARC signing requirements on messages from a certain
> > domain). I attempted to forward the bounced email text to
> > internals-owner@lists[.]php[.]net (which was listed in the email as the
> > owner of the bot) along with a link to Google's support page on why it
> > failed. I was unable to make contact because the forwarded message
> > inevitably contained URLs and IPs both in my text and in the forwarded
> > bounce mail, and so I ran into multiple "looks like spam" warnings.
>
> Yep, got these too. I have a sieve rule now which discards these
> messages. (They became quite irritating after a while.)
>
> Sending a mail to internals-owner did not work either and when I wrote
> to the list, I got a lot of replies and berating messages that I should
> send this email to the mailing list owner. What a joke.
>
> --
> regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek  KeyID 0xF7832007C11F128D
> Key fingerprint = 28A3 1666 4FE8 D72C CFD5 8B23 F783 2007 C11F 128D
>
> /*
>Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
>await thee at its end.
> */
>
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>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Helmut K. C. Tessarek]

On 2017-10-25 15:38, Aidan Woods wrote:
> I occasionally get emails from the mailing list bot warning I'll be
> auto-unsubscribed because messages it is sending to me are are bouncing.
> (It sends me back the bounce notification it received, so I can see that
> the cause is failed DMARC signing requirements on messages from a certain
> domain). I attempted to forward the bounced email text to
> internals-owner@lists[.]php[.]net (which was listed in the email as the
> owner of the bot) along with a link to Google's support page on why it
> failed. I was unable to make contact because the forwarded message
> inevitably contained URLs and IPs both in my text and in the forwarded
> bounce mail, and so I ran into multiple "looks like spam" warnings.

Yep, got these too. I have a sieve rule now which discards these
messages. (They became quite irritating after a while.)

Sending a mail to internals-owner did not work either and when I wrote
to the list, I got a lot of replies and berating messages that I should
send this email to the mailing list owner. What a joke.

-- 
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek  KeyID 0xF7832007C11F128D
Key fingerprint = 28A3 1666 4FE8 D72C CFD5 8B23 F783 2007 C11F 128D

/*
   Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
   await thee at its end.
*/

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Sanford Whiteman]

>
> the wording "bounce" is wrong as you don't send active mails, you reject
> messages


FYI, while incorrect, the wording comes from ezmlm, not Aidan:

Messages to you from the internals mailing list seem to
> have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce
> message I received.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[li...@rhsoft.net]

Am 25.10.2017 um 21:38 schrieb Aidan Woods:

To throw something else on the heap of things that need fixing in the mail
servers:
I occasionally get emails from the mailing list bot warning I'll be
auto-unsubscribed because messages it is sending to me are are bouncing.
(It sends me back the bounce notification it received, so I can see that
the cause is failed DMARC signing requirements on messages from a certain
domain)


the wording "bounce" is wrong as you don't send active mails, you reject 
messages


anyways, don't reject mailing-list messages

mailing-lists are typically *not* a real spam problem and should be 
whitelisted which is easy in case of SPF on the envelope-domain


spamd: result: . -100 - 
CUST_DNSWL_2_SENDERSC_L,CUST_DNSWL_7_ORG_L,CUST_SHORTCIRCUIT1,SHORTCIRCUIT,USER_IN_SPF_WHITELIST


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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Aidan Woods]

To throw something else on the heap of things that need fixing in the mail
servers:
I occasionally get emails from the mailing list bot warning I'll be
auto-unsubscribed because messages it is sending to me are are bouncing.
(It sends me back the bounce notification it received, so I can see that
the cause is failed DMARC signing requirements on messages from a certain
domain). I attempted to forward the bounced email text to
internals-owner@lists[.]php[.]net (which was listed in the email as the
owner of the bot) along with a link to Google's support page on why it
failed. I was unable to make contact because the forwarded message
inevitably contained URLs and IPs both in my text and in the forwarded
bounce mail, and so I ran into multiple "looks like spam" warnings.

If anyone wants to debug this I can forward the emails I've got (though
obviously I can't send them via this mailing list because of domains
contained in the text 路‍♂️)

On 25 October 2017 at 17:05, Helmut K. C. Tessarek 
wrote:

> On 2017-10-25 10:30, Sara Golemon wrote:
> > Quick show of hands: Who's had a "looks like spam" bounce from
> > php.net mail servers in the past... lets say the past month.
>
> Not last month, but in the past. Quite often actually.
>
> > This isn't directed at any one person because AFAICT, the maintainer
> >  of those systems is "nobody".
>
> When I mentioned years ago that there was a problem with the mail
> server, people on this list became very agressive.
>
> I even stopped writing to this list for this exact reason. People on
> this list tend to react with hostility, when they hear something they
> don't like or don't agree with.
>
> Good luck.
>
> --
> regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek  KeyID 0xF7832007C11F128D
> Key fingerprint = 28A3 1666 4FE8 D72C CFD5 8B23 F783 2007 C11F 128D
>
> /*
>Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
>await thee at its end.
> */
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Helmut K. C. Tessarek]

On 2017-10-25 10:30, Sara Golemon wrote:
> Quick show of hands: Who's had a "looks like spam" bounce from 
> php.net mail servers in the past... lets say the past month.

Not last month, but in the past. Quite often actually.

> This isn't directed at any one person because AFAICT, the maintainer
>  of those systems is "nobody".

When I mentioned years ago that there was a problem with the mail
server, people on this list became very agressive.

I even stopped writing to this list for this exact reason. People on
this list tend to react with hostility, when they hear something they
don't like or don't agree with.

Good luck.

-- 
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek  KeyID 0xF7832007C11F128D
Key fingerprint = 28A3 1666 4FE8 D72C CFD5 8B23 F783 2007 C11F 128D

/*
   Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
   await thee at its end.
*/

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[PHP-DEV] PHP's mail servers suck

[Sara Golemon]

Quick show of hands: Who's had a "looks like spam" bounce from php.net
mail servers in the past... lets say the past month.
Or how about the fact that new users tend to have a very hard time
even subscribing to this list?
This isn't directed at any one person because AFAICT, the maintainer
of those systems is "nobody".
Is it time to pick someone to actually maintain that pile of mierde?
Maybe replace the pieces that haven't worked since the 90s?

Fed up with something this basic not working,
-Sara

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