Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 12:32 AM, Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de wrote: On Mon, 2014-12-15 at 21:08 +0100, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: there are two advantages for having 5.7 and having those deprecated messages in 5.7: 1, if we introduce the deprecated message in 5.6.x, some people will miss it (for example debian jessie has 5.6.2) So you want Debian to upgrade to 5.7 instead of 7.0? - I'D rather see them on 7.0 as soon as possible. I don't think that they would pick up 7.0 instantly, even if there is no 5.7 but let's assume that you are right and having 5.7 will delay the 7.0 adoption by one year(as having 5.7 will prolong the support for the 5.x series by a year), I still think it would worth having a version to make the bed for 7.0. 2, would allow us to stabilize 5.6 instead of keep adding stuff to it continuously . New features in 5.6 should be rejected and added to 7.0 to give users more reasons to upgrade. That's also an option, and now that we have a timeline for 7.0 it is a bit easier to convince people to wait for 7.0. Based on the numerous arguments that I had on the mailing list and on irc, it seems that I'm in the minority with my interpretation of https://wiki.php.net/rfc/releaseprocess: https://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg71665.html -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
Patrick Schaaf in php.internals (Mon, 15 Dec 2014 21:36:33 +0100): Now with PHP 7 promising potential for incompatibilities in a lot more areas, it would be, to us, a really useful option to have a 5.7 that is operationally fully compatible with 5.6 with added E_DEPRECATED for things bound to break. With that we could A) rub the developers' noses in the relevant deprecation messages for a while, _and_ run one or more rounds of one-of-the-production -server tests, gathering more deprecation messages there without fear of user visible effects. I fully agree with you. Not only for migrating our own code a version with deprecation warnings would be helpful. But I think that such a version would also be a big help for migrating frameworks like Drupal ans Wordpress. If you want a move to PHP7 you have to make their migration path smooth. Jan -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Julien Pauli wrote: So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* Will we have a PHP 5.7, or jump directly to a 7.0 ? Don't forget, that if we go for a 5.7 , then we won't have a 7.0 at least one year later. We have accepted the timeline for 7, so we need to stick to that: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php7timeline#vote So that means no 5.7. This rfc was specific to php7, and while you are right that with that we do have an approved timelime for php7, but this doesn't say anything about 5.7 (and as far as I'm concerned, it was an intentional choice from Zeev not just something he forgot to include). Maybe it would be worthwile for you to repeat your arguments or simply link them, as I do remember that you are supporting the idea of not having any other release minor release until php7 is out of the door so the development efforts are not fragmented (which as I mentioned in my previous mail I feell it would be only a shift from 5.6.x to 5.7.0 and not fragmanting the php7 development, but you seem to disagree). Yes, I disagree. It's a time thing. Let's all work on one thing instead of *two*. Clearly you must see that there is not enough bandwidth? It will also prevent people from oh we can get this into 5.7 nonsense. It's not helpful, and it *is* fragmenting development. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Sat, 13 Dec 2014, Pierre Joye wrote: On Dec 12, 2014 9:34 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Julien Pauli wrote: So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* Will we have a PHP 5.7, or jump directly to a 7.0 ? Don't forget, that if we go for a 5.7 , then we won't have a 7.0 at least one year later. We have accepted the timeline for 7, so we need to stick to that: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php7timeline#vote I hate to say that but if we stick to rules, this rfc and its result are totally invalid and should be canceled. What a bonkers statement. Just because you don't agree it's not totally invalid. I think 34 vs 2 is a pretty solid argument for sticking to it. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Dec 15, 2014 11:53 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Sat, 13 Dec 2014, Pierre Joye wrote: On Dec 12, 2014 9:34 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Julien Pauli wrote: So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* Will we have a PHP 5.7, or jump directly to a 7.0 ? Don't forget, that if we go for a 5.7 , then we won't have a 7.0 at least one year later. We have accepted the timeline for 7, so we need to stick to that: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php7timeline#vote I hate to say that but if we stick to rules, this rfc and its result are totally invalid and should be canceled. What a bonkers statement. Just because you don't agree it's not totally invalid. I think 34 vs 2 is a pretty solid argument for sticking to it. Aller php7 related RFCs from there are invalid if we stick to the rules. The author asked to respect rules while systematically breaking them. And that's my point here. People voting massively yes because oh it will not happen if we don't say yes now is only bad. For that last one, even the author admit that we may not make it as described. I may propose a counter rfc or just for 5.7, did not make my mind yet. Why should I make a php7 more complete rfc? Because we agreed to make one together to propose actual choices. I was respectful enough to wait on the other author until he was ready. Nice move. So please, before you go up your horse telling me that my arguments are bad, get your facts straight, thanks. Cheers, Pierre
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
Pierre Joye wrote on 15/12/2014 17:39: I hate to say that but if we stick to rules, this rfc and its result are totally invalid and should be canceled. What a bonkers statement. Just because you don't agree it's not totally invalid. I think 34 vs 2 is a pretty solid argument for sticking to it. Aller php7 related RFCs from there are invalid if we stick to the rules. The author asked to respect rules while systematically breaking them. And that's my point here. Can you succinctly, without any personal attacks, explain which rules this RFC broke? Thanks, -- Rowan Collins [IMSoP] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On 12 December 2014 at 23:19, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote: 3. Last (and probably least) - a 5.7 that breaks compatibility is inconsistent with our version strategy, that suggests 5.7 should be fully compatible with 5.6. Whoa — I'm not talking about breaking compatibility. I'm talking about generating deprecation warnings on things we know are going to break in PHP 7. Travelling backwards a point: 2. My position about 5.7 that's minimally different from 5.6 and just 'helps migration', is that it's practically useless. Users won't go through the headache of hopping through two versions, for some supposed unknown benefits. PHP 7 breakage is going to be fairly localized to specific areas - not so much the engine changes which barely breaks anything. So if 5.7 'breaks' the same areas that 7.0 does (keywords, warnings in the right places, etc.) - migrating to it would essentially be as painful (or painless) as migrating to 7.0. In other words, no benefits to doing this extra step from the point of view of most users. As I said, 5.7 wouldn't break anything, to my mind. The point is to provide a way for users to get a heads up on what things they need to be looking into to either migrate to PHP 7, or have a single code base that runs on both PHP 5 and 7, depending on their needs. The Python experience suggests that both of these cases _need_ to be supported, and well. Why wouldn't we — the people best placed to do so — provide the tooling to do that as part of the runtime? The strawman version of your position seems to be that users are going to just migrate to PHP 7 en masse, and that they'll be happy with their code breaking to tell them what to fix. I'm not sure there's any history in PHP or other languages that suggests that's really what will happen, and I think we're doing our users a disservice if we don't make the path to having a mixed 5/7 code base as easy as possible. Adam -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On 15 December 2014 at 08:51, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: Yes, I disagree. It's a time thing. Let's all work on one thing instead of *two*. Clearly you must see that there is not enough bandwidth? It will also prevent people from oh we can get this into 5.7 nonsense. It's not helpful, and it *is* fragmenting development. I'm just as cognisant of our time constraints as you are, but I still think this can work if there's a clear, written expectation (say via RFC) that 5.7 is for migration related changes only, and should not include new feature work. If we can keep this as 5.6 + some deprecation warnings, I believe that can reduce the QA/development load enough to make delivering it and 7.0 possible next year. Adam, who apparently put his optimistic pants on this morning. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
-Original Message- From: Adam Harvey [mailto:a...@adamharvey.name] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 8:06 PM To: Zeev Suraski Cc: PHP Internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ? On 12 December 2014 at 23:19, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote: 3. Last (and probably least) - a 5.7 that breaks compatibility is inconsistent with our version strategy, that suggests 5.7 should be fully compatible with 5.6. Whoa — I'm not talking about breaking compatibility. I'm talking about generating deprecation warnings on things we know are going to break in PHP 7. Ok, that's borderline breaking compatibility if we want people to actually notice it (otherwise it'd be hidden by default settings). But I admit that's nitpicking, withdrawn :) Anyway, the #1 (literally) in my email was that the OP (Julien) clearly had a different 5.7 in mind than what you're describing. As I said, 5.7 wouldn't break anything, to my mind. The point is to provide a way for users to get a heads up on what things they need to be looking into to either migrate to PHP 7, or have a single code base that runs on both PHP 5 and 7, depending on their needs. The Python experience suggests that both of these cases _need_ to be supported, and well. Why wouldn't we — the people best placed to do so — provide the tooling to do that as part of the runtime? The strawman version of your position seems to be that users are going to just migrate to PHP 7 en masse, and that they'll be happy with their code breaking to tell them what to fix. I'm not sure there's any history in PHP or other languages that suggests that's really what will happen, and I think we're doing our users a disservice if we don't make the path to having a mixed 5/7 code base as easy as possible. I don't think people will migrate to PHP 7 en-masse. Our past experience with major versions (and even minor ones) doesn't support this thesis - it'll take time. But I do think that people who decide it's worth their while to migrate, will migrate and take the pain that it takes to make the necessary changes. The extra pain associated with migrating to an interim version - that does nothing but spew warnings in the right places -and obviously doesn't have any of the other features of 7 - doesn't seem to be a worthwhile experience for most users. Zeev -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
-Original Message- From: a...@adamharvey.name [mailto:a...@adamharvey.name] On Behalf Of Adam Harvey Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 8:12 PM To: Derick Rethans Cc: PHP Internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ? On 15 December 2014 at 08:51, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: Yes, I disagree. It's a time thing. Let's all work on one thing instead of *two*. Clearly you must see that there is not enough bandwidth? It will also prevent people from oh we can get this into 5.7 nonsense. It's not helpful, and it *is* fragmenting development. I'm just as cognisant of our time constraints as you are, but I still think this can work if there's a clear, written expectation (say via RFC) that 5.7 is for migration related changes only, and should not include new feature work. If we can keep this as 5.6 + some deprecation warnings, I believe that can reduce the QA/development load enough to make delivering it and 7.0 possible next year. 5.6 + deprecation warnings might be something we can even consider for the 5.6.x tree, as we get closer to release 7.0. I think if we do that, it becomes more interesting since the likelihood of people upgrading to such a version go higher (psychologically, moving to 5.7 is a much bigger deal than upgrading from 5.6.10 to 5.6.11). Zeev -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 8:45 PM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote: -Original Message- From: a...@adamharvey.name [mailto:a...@adamharvey.name] On Behalf Of Adam Harvey Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 8:12 PM To: Derick Rethans Cc: PHP Internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ? On 15 December 2014 at 08:51, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: Yes, I disagree. It's a time thing. Let's all work on one thing instead of *two*. Clearly you must see that there is not enough bandwidth? It will also prevent people from oh we can get this into 5.7 nonsense. It's not helpful, and it *is* fragmenting development. I'm just as cognisant of our time constraints as you are, but I still think this can work if there's a clear, written expectation (say via RFC) that 5.7 is for migration related changes only, and should not include new feature work. If we can keep this as 5.6 + some deprecation warnings, I believe that can reduce the QA/development load enough to make delivering it and 7.0 possible next year. 5.6 + deprecation warnings might be something we can even consider for the 5.6.x tree, as we get closer to release 7.0. I think if we do that, it becomes more interesting since the likelihood of people upgrading to such a version go higher (psychologically, moving to 5.7 is a much bigger deal than upgrading from 5.6.10 to 5.6.11). there are two advantages for having 5.7 and having those deprecated messages in 5.7: 1, if we introduce the deprecated message in 5.6.x, some people will miss it (for example debian jessie has 5.6.2) 2, would allow us to stabilize 5.6 instead of keep adding stuff to it continuously . -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
RE: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
Am 15.12.2014 20:43 schrieb Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com: The extra pain associated with migrating to an interim version - that does nothing but spew warnings in the right places -and obviously doesn't have any of the other features of 7 - doesn't seem to be a worthwhile experience for most users. I dont't know about most users, I can only speak for myself from our small shop (in the big scheme of things...) production and development experience. I compile PHP myself for our setup, and have a nice compilation and deployment environment where I can easily throw new versions separately onto developer hosts and production hosts. We made our codebase E_STRICT|E_DEPRECATED-clean on the transition from 5.3 to 5.4, meanwhile migrated to 5.5, and soon to 5.6, with almost no pain, by first running new versions on developer machines and then on one of several production servers, where possibly issues are visible pretty fast. Now with PHP 7 promising potential for incompatibilities in a lot more areas, it would be, to us, a really useful option to have a 5.7 that is operationally fully compatible with 5.6 with added E_DEPRECATED for things bound to break. With that we could A) rub the developers' noses in the relevant deprecation messages for a while, _and_ run one or more rounds of one-of-the-production -server tests, gathering more deprecation messages there without fear of user visible effects. I cannot judge how much effort such a 5.7 would be for you as developers, and for the release managers, but I definitely would appreciate the effort, and I'm 100% sure that it would speed up our eventual adoption of PHP 7 by at least half a year, because the process would be much less risky. best regards Patrick
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On 15/12/14 20:08, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: there are two advantages for having 5.7 and having those deprecated messages in 5.7: 1, if we introduce the deprecated message in 5.6.x, some people will miss it (for example debian jessie has 5.6.2) 2, would allow us to stabilize 5.6 instead of keep adding stuff to it continuously . And LTS versions can be ring fenced at 5.6 ... with just functional fixes. Perhaps what is needed is a tool which does identify the problems in 5.X code that need to be addressed in order to run clean in PHP7. Rather than encumbering PHP7 with E_STRICT type warning/error code, PHP5.7 would be a test environment to replace that functionality. Once code runs clean then one knows that it can be moved over? Style changes like the 'incorrect ternary '?' associativity' function would be highlighted so that BC problems are not silently changed. A properly documented migration tool rather than a production release as I would not expect to use PHP5.7 in a production environment! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Mon, 2014-12-15 at 21:08 +0100, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: there are two advantages for having 5.7 and having those deprecated messages in 5.7: 1, if we introduce the deprecated message in 5.6.x, some people will miss it (for example debian jessie has 5.6.2) So you want Debian to upgrade to 5.7 instead of 7.0? - I'D rather see them on 7.0 as soon as possible. 2, would allow us to stabilize 5.6 instead of keep adding stuff to it continuously . New features in 5.6 should be rejected and added to 7.0 to give users more reasons to upgrade. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
Hi, On 15 Dec 2014, at 23:32, Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de wrote: On Mon, 2014-12-15 at 21:08 +0100, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: there are two advantages for having 5.7 and having those deprecated messages in 5.7: 1, if we introduce the deprecated message in 5.6.x, some people will miss it (for example debian jessie has 5.6.2) So you want Debian to upgrade to 5.7 instead of 7.0? - I'D rather see them on 7.0 as soon as possible. Honestly, I don’t think Debian will switch to PHP 7, nor will any other distro, because it’s a new major version and it breaks things. `php` will probably continue to be PHP 5, they’ll add `php7`, prolong 5.6 or 5.7’s life for five years, and eventually switch `php` over to 7. 2, would allow us to stabilize 5.6 instead of keep adding stuff to it continuously . New features in 5.6 should be rejected and added to 7.0 to give users more reasons to upgrade. I agree on this one. Thanks. -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Dec 13, 2014 2:19 PM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote: Levi, Andrea, Adam, and others that suggested we can do 5.7 in parallel while sticking to the 7.0 timeline: 1. I was replying to Julien. Julien said in at least 3 different places in his email that if we do 5.7, we'll clearly not be doing 7.0 in 2015 and it will clearly mean delaying 7.0 by a year. If you disagree, you should be replying to and discussing with him, not me. This is a public mailing list, for open discussions. You replied to arguments, so we do. It brings pros and cons to a debate you delibatery killed with your incomplete rfc, breaking rules again while being at it. Perhaps Julien and you have different ideas about what 5.7 is; Even though it's not explicitly mentioned in his email, it certainly sounds that in his mind, 5.7 is just as much of a release as 5.6 or 5.5 were. Not necessarily and this is what we are discussing here. 3. Last (and probably least) - a 5.7 that breaks compatibility is inconsistent with our version strategy, that suggests 5.7 should be fully compatible with 5.6. It won't if we do it right.
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On 12 December 2014 at 13:45, Julien Pauli jpa...@php.net wrote: - If we go for 7.0 : I wouldn't mind delaying its release to November(2015) if needed, its a major, extra care should be taken. However, not later : our release process status for 2 years of active life , if 7.0 were to be released in 2016, then we'd have 5.5 lasting for much more than 2 years active. Hey Julien, I thought this was already pretty much decided in the 7.0 timeline RFC. I don't see your vote on there, did you miss it? https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php7timeline The goal of mid-October (subject to quality) caters for your November delay too. Since the vote was so positive, I think we should stick to this. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Julien Pauli jpa...@php.net wrote: Hi people. Ferenc and I, actual RM of 5.5 and 5.6 , were discussing the calendar today on IRC. Let's start with facts : - We release new PHP versions (major or minor) on summer. Usually, if we can have it end of June, it is good. - We may delay that, 5.6 got released end of summer : in september. It is bad, but acceptable. Lies, it was released at the end of August. :P - We always have, from our release process, *2 active versions at the same time + 1 sec fix version*. Not more, not less. If we release during summer, that means we need to prepare everything around Christmas. Tip : Christmax is approaching :-) So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* Will we have a PHP 5.7, or jump directly to a 7.0 ? Don't forget, that if we go for a 5.7 , then we won't have a 7.0 at least one year later. If not : we'll happen having 3 active versions (5.6 , 5.7 and 7.0) and one sec-fix only (5.5) , *this is something we don't want* , because we have the feeling that it is too much pain to maintain so many versions alive. - If we go for 7.0 : I wouldn't mind delaying its release to November(2015) if needed, its a major, extra care should be taken. However, not later : our release process status for 2 years of active life , if 7.0 were to be released in 2016, then we'd have 5.5 lasting for much more than 2 years active. - If we go for 5.7 : We could release it this summer (2015) , but that would mean that 7.0 wouldn't come before summer 2016. Releasing a 5.7 will lean the release cycle curve, but it is not mandatory, that should be debatted. Decisions should be taken now : aka in 2014. Taking decisions later than this will lead to a rush in release process, wich is very bug/error prone, and should be prevented. Thank you. Julien.Pauli it would be also possible to release 5.7 and 7.0 in parallel, and I know that some people were against this, as this would mean less effort going into 7.0, but to be honest, I think that it would only mean that instead of continuing to accept small self contained features to 5.6.x (which we already have a couple and people are we are still have a bunch more requested/worked on already), we would turn 5.5/5.6 into mostly bugfix status and push those small features into 5.7 instead. Given the past trends about the penetration of new major(ish) php versions, I'm fairly sure that when 5.6 gets EOLed, there will be plenty of people/projects who will not be ready to migrate to PHP7 yet, so I think that one way or another, 5.6 won't be the last minor version in the PHP 5 family. If we can agree on that, I think it would make sense to have an 5.7 released a bit before or together with 7.0, which can be used as a stepping stone for migrating 7.0: we could make sure that anything which will be changed/removed in 7.0 is properly deprecated in 5.7, so you will do two smaller steps instead of one big one. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Julien Pauli wrote: So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* Will we have a PHP 5.7, or jump directly to a 7.0 ? Don't forget, that if we go for a 5.7 , then we won't have a 7.0 at least one year later. We have accepted the timeline for 7, so we need to stick to that: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php7timeline#vote So that means no 5.7. cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug Posted with an email client that doesn't mangle email: alpine -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Julien Pauli wrote: So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* Will we have a PHP 5.7, or jump directly to a 7.0 ? Don't forget, that if we go for a 5.7 , then we won't have a 7.0 at least one year later. We have accepted the timeline for 7, so we need to stick to that: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php7timeline#vote So that means no 5.7. This rfc was specific to php7, and while you are right that with that we do have an approved timelime for php7, but this doesn't say anything about 5.7 (and as far as I'm concerned, it was an intentional choice from Zeev not just something he forgot to include). Maybe it would be worthwile for you to repeat your arguments or simply link them, as I do remember that you are supporting the idea of not having any other release minor release until php7 is out of the door so the development efforts are not fragmented (which as I mentioned in my previous mail I feell it would be only a shift from 5.6.x to 5.7.0 and not fragmanting the php7 development, but you seem to disagree). -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:47 PM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Julien Pauli wrote: So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* Will we have a PHP 5.7, or jump directly to a 7.0 ? Don't forget, that if we go for a 5.7 , then we won't have a 7.0 at least one year later. We have accepted the timeline for 7, so we need to stick to that: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php7timeline#vote So that means no 5.7. This rfc was specific to php7, and while you are right that with that we do have an approved timelime for php7, but this doesn't say anything about 5.7 (and as far as I'm concerned, it was an intentional choice from Zeev not just something he forgot to include). Maybe it would be worthwile for you to repeat your arguments or simply link them, as I do remember that you are supporting the idea of not having any other release minor release until php7 is out of the door so the development efforts are not fragmented (which as I mentioned in my previous mail I feell it would be only a shift from 5.6.x to 5.7.0 and not fragmanting the php7 development, but you seem to disagree). True : We then have agreed for the PHP7 planning, by RFC voting. BUT, we still haven't argued about a possible 5.7 in the next time as 7.0 (and then , about the status/lifetime of 5.6). Julien.P
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On Dec 12, 2014 9:34 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Julien Pauli wrote: So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* Will we have a PHP 5.7, or jump directly to a 7.0 ? Don't forget, that if we go for a 5.7 , then we won't have a 7.0 at least one year later. We have accepted the timeline for 7, so we need to stick to that: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php7timeline#vote I hate to say that but if we stick to rules, this rfc and its result are totally invalid and should be canceled. So that means no 5.7. No. cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug Posted with an email client that doesn't mangle email: alpine -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
Just because we are releasing PHP 7.0 next year (well, according to our timeline anyway) that doesn't mean we can't release a 5.7. The advantage of PHP 5.7 is clear to me at least: it would extend support for the 5.X series by another year, get bug fixes, and contain E_DEPRECATED warnings and other things that should make migrating to PHP 7.0 easier. I personally do not suggest adding any features in PHP 5.7. And to reiterate this in case someone has missed it: we have already voted on and accepted an RFC which targets PHP 5.7: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/switch.default.multiple -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On 12 December 2014 at 10:07, Levi Morrison le...@php.net wrote: Just because we are releasing PHP 7.0 next year (well, according to our timeline anyway) that doesn't mean we can't release a 5.7. Agreed. I have to apologise here — I've had a draft RFC half-written for over a week at this point that would lay out a timeline and scope for PHP 5.7 (and think I mentioned it on IRC, so I'm sorry if I forestalled someone else doing the same), and haven't had time to finish it and send it due to travelling. The advantage of PHP 5.7 is clear to me at least: it would extend support for the 5.X series by another year, get bug fixes, and contain E_DEPRECATED warnings and other things that should make migrating to PHP 7.0 easier. I personally do not suggest adding any features in PHP 5.7. I completely agree: 5.7 should happen, and should include deprecation warnings where appropriate, reserve any keywords that will be reserved in PHP 7, and generally make it easier to maintain code that works on both versions. In terms of timeline: I think we could (and should) release this in August, assuming we stick to the limited scope above. We could really branch any time from PHP-5.6. We'll know what new warnings need to be in 5.7 by mid-March, per the PHP 7 timeline, and could then start the alpha/beta cycle there: in general, less testing should be required than normal compared to the last few versions due to the scope, and 4-5 months would be plenty to get through testing, even given that most people would be (understandably) focused on PHP 7. Adam -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
So the main question is : *What version will we release next year ?* We've already answered that question, as per the PHP 7 timeline RFC, we're aiming to release PHP 7 in 2015. Sure, given the aggressive timeline there's the possibility that we won't be able to make it on time, but that's our goal. If not : we'll happen having 3 active versions (5.6 , 5.7 and 7.0) and one sec- fix only (5.5) , *this is something we don't want* , because we have the feeling that it is too much pain to maintain so many versions alive. It's worse than that. Since the PHP 7 timeline was already approved and must be a working assumption, introducing a 1yr delay for 5.7 is out of the question. That means that working on PHP 5.7 would require us to work on two upcoming content releases (with new features and substantial changes) simultaneously, which IIRC is both unprecedented and a bad idea given our limited resources. In my opinion, we should definitely focus all of our resources and bandwidth on getting 7.0 out the door. 7.0 is strategic. 5.7 is tactical. - If we go for 7.0 : I wouldn't mind delaying its release to November(2015) if needed, its a major, extra care should be taken. However, not later : our release process status for 2 years of active life , if 7.0 were to be released in 2016, then we'd have 5.5 lasting for much more than 2 years active. Per the timeline RFC we're already looking at a mid-October timeframe for GA, but it actually does make provisions for delaying it - high quality is more important than the timeline - although we should absolutely strive to meet the milestones in the RFC. - If we go for 5.7 : We could release it this summer (2015) , but that would mean that 7.0 wouldn't come before summer 2016. Releasing a 5.7 will lean the release cycle curve, but it is not mandatory, that should be debatted. A 5.7 that pushes 7.0 into Summer 2016 is IMHO a strategic mistake, but regardless I think the discussion is moot. We've already decided we're aiming for a 2015 PHP 7.0 release, and should stick to that plan. Zeev -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
- If we go for 5.7 : We could release it this summer (2015) , but that would mean that 7.0 wouldn't come before summer 2016. Releasing a 5.7 will lean the release cycle curve, but it is not mandatory, that should be debatted. A 5.7 that pushes 7.0 into Summer 2016 is IMHO a strategic mistake, but regardless I think the discussion is moot. We've already decided we're aiming for a 2015 PHP 7.0 release, and should stick to that plan. Assuming we do a PHP 5.7 as I outlined previously, it shouldn't take anything more than a few hours here and there by a release manager and a tiny bit of extra work for a few RFC authors. It's just normal bug fixes, version bump, and compatibility stuff for PHP 7. As long as we keep features out of PHP 5.7 it should not delay a PHP 7 release. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
Hi! On 12 Dec 2014, at 19:40, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote: If not : we'll happen having 3 active versions (5.6 , 5.7 and 7.0) and one sec- fix only (5.5) , *this is something we don't want* , because we have the feeling that it is too much pain to maintain so many versions alive. It's worse than that. Since the PHP 7 timeline was already approved and must be a working assumption, introducing a 1yr delay for 5.7 is out of the question. That means that working on PHP 5.7 would require us to work on two upcoming content releases (with new features and substantial changes) simultaneously, which IIRC is both unprecedented and a bad idea given our limited resources. In my opinion, we should definitely focus all of our resources and bandwidth on getting 7.0 out the door. 7.0 is strategic. 5.7 is tactical. I must disagree: 5.7 would only be trivially different from 5.6 (deprecations), the effort involved is only as much as continuing to maintain 5.6, and we have to do that anyway. So there’s no problem with working on both. Thanks! -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
On 12 December 2014 at 23:00, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: I must disagree: 5.7 would only be trivially different from 5.6 (deprecations), the effort involved is only as much as continuing to maintain 5.6, and we have to do that anyway. So there’s no problem with working on both. I have to say I very much agree with this. I see 5.7 as a featureless stepping stone to aid 7.0 adoption. Very much in line with what Ferenc suggested earlier on. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ?
-Original Message- From: morrison.l...@gmail.com [mailto:morrison.l...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Levi Morrison Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 10:00 PM To: Zeev Suraski Cc: Julien Pauli; PHP Internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] On the road to PHP 5.7 , or not ? - If we go for 5.7 : We could release it this summer (2015) , but that would mean that 7.0 wouldn't come before summer 2016. Releasing a 5.7 will lean the release cycle curve, but it is not mandatory, that should be debatted. A 5.7 that pushes 7.0 into Summer 2016 is IMHO a strategic mistake, but regardless I think the discussion is moot. We've already decided we're aiming for a 2015 PHP 7.0 release, and should stick to that plan. Assuming we do a PHP 5.7 as I outlined previously, it shouldn't take anything more than a few hours here and there by a release manager and a tiny bit of extra work for a few RFC authors. It's just normal bug fixes, version bump, and compatibility stuff for PHP 7. As long as we keep features out of PHP 5.7 it should not delay a PHP 7 release. Levi, Andrea, Adam, and others that suggested we can do 5.7 in parallel while sticking to the 7.0 timeline: 1. I was replying to Julien. Julien said in at least 3 different places in his email that if we do 5.7, we'll clearly not be doing 7.0 in 2015 and it will clearly mean delaying 7.0 by a year. If you disagree, you should be replying to and discussing with him, not me. Perhaps Julien and you have different ideas about what 5.7 is; Even though it's not explicitly mentioned in his email, it certainly sounds that in his mind, 5.7 is just as much of a release as 5.6 or 5.5 were. 2. My position about 5.7 that's minimally different from 5.6 and just 'helps migration', is that it's practically useless. Users won't go through the headache of hopping through two versions, for some supposed unknown benefits. PHP 7 breakage is going to be fairly localized to specific areas - not so much the engine changes which barely breaks anything. So if 5.7 'breaks' the same areas that 7.0 does (keywords, warnings in the right places, etc.) - migrating to it would essentially be as painful (or painless) as migrating to 7.0. In other words, no benefits to doing this extra step from the point of view of most users. 3. Last (and probably least) - a 5.7 that breaks compatibility is inconsistent with our version strategy, that suggests 5.7 should be fully compatible with 5.6. All in all, whether it's a feature release or an empty shell with just 7.0's compatibility breakages, I don't see how 5.7 makes sense. Zeev -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
