RE: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Jeff Keyser]

Actually, the problem isn't that James needs to lookup MX records as much as
it is that James doesn't know what DNS servers the local host was configured
to use.  If James could read the DNS configuration of the local machine,
this wouldn't need to be set again in the config.

> -Original Message-
> From: Chaudhuri, Hiran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:26 PM
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: RE: Newsgroup integration, and other questions
>
>
> Hi, Danny.
>
> Thank you for that explanation. Yes, I was no longer aware of those MX
> records that need to be queried. What I thought of was only
> the hostname
> that might need resolution.
>
> Hiran
>
> -
> Hiran Chaudhuri
> SAG Systemhaus GmbH
> Elsenheimerstraße 11
> 80687 München
> Germany
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone +49-89-54742-134
> Fax   +49-6151-9234-5134
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 10:56 AM
> > To: James Developers List
> > Subject: RE: Newsgroup integration, and other questions
> >
> >
> > Hiran
> >
> > > So why does a MTA by itself need to know the DNS server's ip
> > > addresses? BTW,
> > > I never entered such information and did not see any problems.
> >
> > MTA's use MX records to find a list of all MTA's to whom they
> > could deliver
> > mail for a specified domain.
> > If this list isn't found, or all of those hosts cannot be
> > contacted the MTA
> > can try to deliver directly to the domain of the address.
> >
> > Thus most mail domains actually map to servers whos name is
> > different to the
> > mail domain, in which case no DNS prevents this being delivered.
> > Some mail is correctly delivered directly to the domain.
> >
> > Java doesn't (AFAIK) have a simple method of determining MX
> > record lists or
> > the nameservers from OS network config, and local name resolution
> > (etc/hosts) doesnt contain MX information. Therefore James
> > needs to know the
> > IP of a nameserver from which it can get MX records.
> >
> > Sendmail can find the nameservers from OS config, so you
> don't have to
> > configure this parameter for it, but it isn't as portable as James.
> > Likewise, I expect, for other platform specific MTA's.
> >
> > If Java does have a way of getting lists of MX records
> > without knowing DNS
> > addresses do let us know about it.
> >
> > d.
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
>
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RE: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Chaudhuri, Hiran]

Hi, Danny.

Thank you for that explanation. Yes, I was no longer aware of those MX
records that need to be queried. What I thought of was only the hostname
that might need resolution.

Hiran

-
Hiran Chaudhuri
SAG Systemhaus GmbH
Elsenheimerstraße 11
80687 München
Germany
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone +49-89-54742-134
Fax   +49-6151-9234-5134

> -Original Message-
> From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 10:56 AM
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: RE: Newsgroup integration, and other questions
> 
> 
> Hiran
> 
> > So why does a MTA by itself need to know the DNS server's ip
> > addresses? BTW,
> > I never entered such information and did not see any problems.
> 
> MTA's use MX records to find a list of all MTA's to whom they 
> could deliver
> mail for a specified domain.
> If this list isn't found, or all of those hosts cannot be 
> contacted the MTA
> can try to deliver directly to the domain of the address.
> 
> Thus most mail domains actually map to servers whos name is 
> different to the
> mail domain, in which case no DNS prevents this being delivered.
> Some mail is correctly delivered directly to the domain.
> 
> Java doesn't (AFAIK) have a simple method of determining MX 
> record lists or
> the nameservers from OS network config, and local name resolution
> (etc/hosts) doesnt contain MX information. Therefore James 
> needs to know the
> IP of a nameserver from which it can get MX records.
> 
> Sendmail can find the nameservers from OS config, so you don't have to
> configure this parameter for it, but it isn't as portable as James.
> Likewise, I expect, for other platform specific MTA's.
> 
> If Java does have a way of getting lists of MX records 
> without knowing DNS
> addresses do let us know about it.
> 
> d.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

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Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Serge Knystautas]

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=james-user&m=101807625219230&w=2

Chaudhuri, Hiran wrote:
> Hi, Serge.
> 
> Actually I thought to have done so. It is clear for me that a transfer agent
> needs to know about the domains it serves, and as you mentioned in another
> mail this information cannot be obtained using DNS. But every computer
> connected on the internet has a resolver library for name to ip address
> mapping and vice versa, mostly configured by the administrator to use DNS
> (it could be the hosts file also).
> 
> So why does a MTA by itself need to know the DNS server's ip addresses? BTW,
> I never entered such information and did not see any problems.
> 
> Hiran
> 
> -
> Hiran Chaudhuri
> SAG Systemhaus GmbH
> Elsenheimerstraße 11
> 80687 München
> Germany
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone +49-89-54742-134
> Fax   +49-6151-9234-5134


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RE: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Danny Angus]

Hiran

> So why does a MTA by itself need to know the DNS server's ip
> addresses? BTW,
> I never entered such information and did not see any problems.

MTA's use MX records to find a list of all MTA's to whom they could deliver
mail for a specified domain.
If this list isn't found, or all of those hosts cannot be contacted the MTA
can try to deliver directly to the domain of the address.

Thus most mail domains actually map to servers whos name is different to the
mail domain, in which case no DNS prevents this being delivered.
Some mail is correctly delivered directly to the domain.

Java doesn't (AFAIK) have a simple method of determining MX record lists or
the nameservers from OS network config, and local name resolution
(etc/hosts) doesnt contain MX information. Therefore James needs to know the
IP of a nameserver from which it can get MX records.

Sendmail can find the nameservers from OS config, so you don't have to
configure this parameter for it, but it isn't as portable as James.
Likewise, I expect, for other platform specific MTA's.

If Java does have a way of getting lists of MX records without knowing DNS
addresses do let us know about it.

d.


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RE: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Chaudhuri, Hiran]

Hi, Serge.

Actually I thought to have done so. It is clear for me that a transfer agent
needs to know about the domains it serves, and as you mentioned in another
mail this information cannot be obtained using DNS. But every computer
connected on the internet has a resolver library for name to ip address
mapping and vice versa, mostly configured by the administrator to use DNS
(it could be the hosts file also).

So why does a MTA by itself need to know the DNS server's ip addresses? BTW,
I never entered such information and did not see any problems.

Hiran

-
Hiran Chaudhuri
SAG Systemhaus GmbH
Elsenheimerstraße 11
80687 München
Germany
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone +49-89-54742-134
Fax   +49-6151-9234-5134

> -Original Message-
> From: Serge Knystautas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 2:15 PM
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions
> 
> 
> I think you'll find it helpful if you go read about how DNS works.
> -- 
> Serge Knystautas
> Loki Technologies - Unstoppable Websites
> http://www.lokitech.com/
> 
> Chaudhuri, Hiran wrote:
> > Hi, David.
> > 
> > Isn't it the operating system's task to determine IP-address and
> > DNS-servers? Either the admin configured everything for a 
> machine, or she
> > chose to use DHCP on that. I never understood why a mail 
> transfer agent like
> > James or Sendmail needs special settings for DNS.
> > 
> > Hiran
> > 
> > -
> > Hiran Chaudhuri
> > SAG Systemhaus GmbH
> > Elsenheimerstraße 11
> > 80687 München
> > Germany
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Phone +49-89-54742-134
> > Fax   +49-6151-9234-5134
> > 
> > 
> >>-----Original Message-
> >>From: David Smiley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:47 AM
> >>To: James Developers List
> >>Subject: Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>1: What's so wrong about sending out single innocent DHCP 
> >>>
> >>UDP packet to
> >>
> >>>>query the DNS server on startup?  Is that really so bad?
> >>>
> >>>Ok, but then what?
> >>
> >>To find the DNS servers so I don't have to specify this 
> myself in the
> >>configuration.
> >>
> >>~ David Smiley
> 
> 
> --
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Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Serge Knystautas]

I think you'll find it helpful if you go read about how DNS works.
-- 
Serge Knystautas
Loki Technologies - Unstoppable Websites
http://www.lokitech.com/

Chaudhuri, Hiran wrote:
> Hi, David.
> 
> Isn't it the operating system's task to determine IP-address and
> DNS-servers? Either the admin configured everything for a machine, or she
> chose to use DHCP on that. I never understood why a mail transfer agent like
> James or Sendmail needs special settings for DNS.
> 
> Hiran
> 
> -
> Hiran Chaudhuri
> SAG Systemhaus GmbH
> Elsenheimerstraße 11
> 80687 München
> Germany
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone +49-89-54742-134
> Fax   +49-6151-9234-5134
> 
> 
>>-Original Message-
>>From: David Smiley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:47 AM
>>To: James Developers List
>>Subject: Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>1: What's so wrong about sending out single innocent DHCP 
>>>
>>UDP packet to
>>
>>>>query the DNS server on startup?  Is that really so bad?
>>>
>>>Ok, but then what?
>>
>>To find the DNS servers so I don't have to specify this myself in the
>>configuration.
>>
>>~ David Smiley


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RE: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Chaudhuri, Hiran]

Hi, David.

Isn't it the operating system's task to determine IP-address and
DNS-servers? Either the admin configured everything for a machine, or she
chose to use DHCP on that. I never understood why a mail transfer agent like
James or Sendmail needs special settings for DNS.

Hiran

-
Hiran Chaudhuri
SAG Systemhaus GmbH
Elsenheimerstraße 11
80687 München
Germany
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone +49-89-54742-134
Fax   +49-6151-9234-5134

> -Original Message-
> From: David Smiley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:47 AM
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions
> 
> 
> 
> > > 1: What's so wrong about sending out single innocent DHCP 
> UDP packet to
> > > query the DNS server on startup?  Is that really so bad?
> >
> > Ok, but then what?
> 
> To find the DNS servers so I don't have to specify this myself in the
> configuration.
> 
> ~ David Smiley
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

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Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Serge Knystautas]

Oh, oh, I see what you mean... well, don't you risk grabbing a lease 
that some other machine could use (assuming you're pulling from a pool 
of IP addresses)?  This might be a cool thing to do though... I don't 
know the specifics of the DHCP protocol, but would be nice to have a 
conf setting to use DHCP is this would work.

I found this and think I had tested using this once before.. 
http://www.dhcp.org/javadhcp/  It's GPL so we couldn't use it as is, but 
perhaps we could talk to the author about the code... hasn't been 
modified since 9/13/99.
-- 
Serge Knystautas
Loki Technologies - Unstoppable Websites
http://www.lokitech.com/

David Smiley wrote:
>>>1: What's so wrong about sending out single innocent DHCP UDP packet to
>>>query the DNS server on startup?  Is that really so bad?
>>
>>Ok, but then what?
> 
> 
> To find the DNS servers so I don't have to specify this myself in the
> configuration.
> 
> ~ David Smiley


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Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[David Smiley]

> > 1: What's so wrong about sending out single innocent DHCP UDP packet to
> > query the DNS server on startup?  Is that really so bad?
>
> Ok, but then what?

To find the DNS servers so I don't have to specify this myself in the
configuration.

~ David Smiley



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Re: Newsgroup integration, and other questions

[Serge Knystautas]

Sorry, meant to just bring up the NNTP support to the dev list.  Anyway, 
here goes with the other questions...

David Smiley wrote:
> Another few unrelated questions/comments:
> 1: What's so wrong about sending out single innocent DHCP UDP packet to
> query the DNS server on startup?  Is that really so bad?

Ok, but then what?

> 2: James detects that my machine's name is "dsmiley" but it doesn't also
> realize that "dsmiley.mitre.org" is also my machine's name.  Is it possible
> that the RecipientIsLocal matcher could do the DNS lookup of the machine
> name if it appears that the DNS name might resolve to the local James?  Or
> maybe the initial detection could be smarter to know at that time.

Really I think you should be configuring the domains you handle rather 
than relying on DNS.  I can't think of a way for you to determine every 
possible name that could map to your server... reverse DNS will just 
give a single address, and there's nothing to stop someone managing 
otherdomain.com to point an MX record at the hostname for your server... 
no real way to query to determine that ahead of time, and you probably 
don't want to allow that anyway.  We could also do a dynamic check so 
that as you receive emails you do a lookup to see if this is a local 
host.  However, again you may end up thinking someone is a local 
recipient when they're really not, and this is using what is transient 
information to make what should be permanent configuration changes, 
IMHO.  In any case, remote delivery does do this check so it doesn't try 
to deliver to itself, to avoid race conditions.

Sorry, I'm rambling.  Summary: not possible to make a smarter initial 
detection;  you're pretty much stuck configuring this.

> 3: The "Handling mail for" info log messages in James.log confused me at
> first.  I think they ought to be worded
> differently to clarify that these are machine names, not user names.

I'll look into that.  seems to make sense.

> 4: Where is the NotifySender mailet documented?  I looked for it here:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/james/configuration_v2_0.html but didn't find it.
> Ultimately, I am just curious to make sure that it will try to detect that
> messages between two mail servers won't bounce back and forth forever if
> there is a configuration problem.

Not really documented anywhere... anyone is free to contribute 
documentation though. :)  More seriously, James has a check (RelayLimit) 
set by default to 30 hops before a message gets killed, in case you 
unintentionally relay between 2 servers (although true, if you're 
constructing a new notice message, you could see this loop).

> ~ David Smiley
-- 
Serge Knystautas
Loki Technologies - Unstoppable Websites
http://www.lokitech.com/


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