Cannot compile Magician/Tree/JoGL etc. with JDK1.2pre

1999-04-29 Thread Niels Hilbrink

Dear all,

This is NOT a post containing whining lines of text complaining that J3D
does not exist for JDK1.2 ... 

I tried to use of of the above mentioned OpenGL bindings  to no
avail, all failed. Some *(Tree and JoGL) during the compilation phase
(jni is completely different in JDK1.2) the other with a
"UnsatisfiedLinkError" from /usr/lib/jdk1.2/jre/lib/rt.jar ...  For some
funny reason it cannot find the shared library although the location is
in the LD_LIBRARY_PATH (and in /etc/ld.so.conf)


Q: did anybody manage to get OpenGL running under JDK1.2 (for LINUX) ?


Kind regards,
Niels Hilbrink

-- 
Stehlin Merazzi Research sa.  tel : +41 32 345 2123 - direct   
http://www.smr.ch   +41 79 607 1014 - mobile
Rue Dufour 109b +41 32 345 2120 - fax
CH-2500 Bienne 4, Switzerland   +41 91 994 2128 - private


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Anyone tried Teikade?

1999-04-29 Thread Robb Shecter

Hi,

I just downloaded Teikade (The 1.x version that works with JDK 1.1), and
I'm really impressed - it offers a real OO development environment  -
similar to Smalltalk's class browser.

The source is there too, and I can imagine that it wouldn't be to hard
to add in other stuff I'd like (BeanShell-type scripting, for example,
and automatically generated method "protocols" for private, public,
etc...)

Anybody using this?
- Robb


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Cannot compile Magician/Tree/JoGL etc. with JDK1.2pre

1999-04-29 Thread A.J. Rossini


> "NH" == Niels Hilbrink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

NH> Q: did anybody manage to get OpenGL running under JDK1.2 (for
NH> LINUX) ?

I got JOGL compiled.  havn't quite got the classpath setup, though :-( 
(got errors, saying the OGL not found when trying to run the tests).

This is with JOGL 0.7a, for use with JFree-D.

Unfortunately, I've got a bit of analysis to finish before I can get
back to it...

best,
-tony

-- 
A.J. RossiniResearch Assistant Professor of Biostatistics 
Center for AIDS ResearchUW Biostatistics 
206-720-4282 (4209=fax) 206-543-1044 (=fax)
[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.biostat.washington.edu/~rossini/


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Cannot compile Magician/Tree/JoGL etc. with JDK1.2pre

1999-04-29 Thread Niels Hilbrink

"A.J. Rossini" wrote:
> NH> Q: did anybody manage to get OpenGL running under JDK1.2 (for
> NH> LINUX) ?
> 
> I got JOGL compiled.  havn't quite got the classpath setup, though :-(
> (got errors, saying the OGL not found when trying to run the tests).

Really with JDK1.2 prev1 ? Great news, I have some questions though

Q1) Did it compiler straight 'out of the box' or did you have to make
alterations
to the Makefile (notably which includ directories to include ?

Q2) Did you manage to do any tests as far as speed is concerned

Kind regards,
Niels Hilbrink
-- 
Stehlin Merazzi Research sa.  tel : +41 32 345 2123 - direct   
http://www.smr.ch   +41 79 607 1014 - mobile
Rue Dufour 109b +41 32 345 2120 - fax
CH-2500 Bienne 4, Switzerland   +41 91 994 2128 - private


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Cannot compile Magician/Tree/JoGL etc. with JDK1.2pre

1999-04-29 Thread A.J. Rossini


> "NH" == Niels Hilbrink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

NH> Really with JDK1.2 prev1 ? Great news, I have some questions
NH> though

Really.

NH> Q1) Did it compiler straight 'out of the box' or did you have
NH> to make alterations
NH> to the Makefile (notably which includ directories to
NH> include ?

I had to edit Makefiles to add "-green" to java* commands, since I'm
running a quasi debian Slink/Potato (glibc 2.1) system.

Note that while the compile logs don't show errors, I still have to:
- figure out why it doesn't run the tests (i.e. I was getting
  an error about not finding OGL)
- verify that the things I need (the J3D components) work
  correctly..

NH> Q2) Did you manage to do any tests as far as speed is
NH> concerned

See above.

Has anyone yet tested JFree-D with JDK 1.2pre1?  (the author hasn't,
ref:private email).  I'm just happy for the opportunity to move off of 
windows NT...

best,
-tony

-- 
A.J. RossiniResearch Assistant Professor of Biostatistics 
Center for AIDS ResearchUW Biostatistics 
206-720-4282 (4209=fax) 206-543-1044 (=fax)
[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.biostat.washington.edu/~rossini/


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




RE: Pass By Reference ??

1999-04-29 Thread Farhan Killedar

I just wondered whether anyone knows how to display Arabic fonts on a java
window toolkit. Or how do I add an arabic font to the FontList.

Thanks
Farhan


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Cannot compile Magician/Tree/JoGL etc. with JDK1.2pre

1999-04-29 Thread Leung Yau Wai


Try using GL4Java package!

http://www.jausoft.com/GL4Java



On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Niels Hilbrink wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> This is NOT a post containing whining lines of text complaining that J3D
> does not exist for JDK1.2 ... 

===
¤µ¤Ñ¨ì¦Ñ§Ú¹³¨º¶^¤£¨ì  §Ú·Q°µLeung Yau Wai
°µ§Ú©R¹B²Å¸¹  ¥Î§Ú¤OçE§Ú¸ô³~§Ú«Y¬ì¤j¹q¤l­pºâ¾÷¬ì¾Ç¨t¤T¦~¯Å
¥u¬ß§Ú¤@¤é·|¦b¬P©]¸Ì[EMAIL PROTECTED]
¨º¤Ñ§Ú·|  §t²\»¡Án  §Ú°µ¨ì  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Reading from Socket doesn't work?

1999-04-29 Thread Michael Durket

  I'm sure this is a known problem, but I've just started playing with
Java on Linux.

  I'm using the JDK 1.1.5 v6 on a RedHat 4.1 system. When I tried to run Java
programs that worked successfully on Solaris, the programs didn't work - I got
exceptions thrown.

  Upon investigation, it appears that any read from a Socket throws an exception.
I used strace under Linux to get a trace and here's the partial result at the point
of error:

   write(5, "0", 1)= 1
   sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, NULL, [])= 0
   read(5, 0x40822d50, 1)  = -1 EAGAIN (Try again)
   open("./java/net/SocketException.class", O_RDONLY) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or 
directory)

Note that file descriptor 5 is the socket, and I've verified that the byte written 
with the
write() got to the remote host. I've also verified with tcpdump that the host sent me 
data,
which Java didn't read. It appears that once it gets the EAGAIN error, it generates a
SocketException (because it's attempting to open() the class file for that exception -
it eventually finds it in classes.zip).

  I can't believe that nobody noticed that socket input doesn't work, so I'm assuming 
this
is stupidity on my part as a new Linux user setting up Java Linux.

  Do I need a newer release of the Java port for Linux, a newer Linux kernel or a 
different
library?

  Thanks.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Reading from Socket doesn't work?

1999-04-29 Thread Matt Welsh


Apart from the liklihood that there's something wrong in your program,
you could try upgrading to a new version of the Linux JDK (1.1.7v1 is
the latest in the 1.1 series). Socket reads/writes have always worked
for me under Linux.

Michael Durket <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>   I'm sure this is a known problem, but I've just started playing with
> Java on Linux.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Anyone tried Teikade?

1999-04-29 Thread Hamdi Mohd Yusof

Hi,

No, I have never heard of Teikade before. Can you give me the link?

hamdi


Robb Shecter wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Teikade (The 1.x version that works with JDK 1.1), and
> I'm really impressed - it offers a real OO development environment  -
> similar to Smalltalk's class browser.
>
> The source is there too, and I can imagine that it wouldn't be to hard
> to add in other stuff I'd like (BeanShell-type scripting, for example,
> and automatically generated method "protocols" for private, public,
> etc...)
>
> Anybody using this?
> - Robb
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Sun Bashing 2

1999-04-29 Thread Ken McNeil

I have been programming in Java for over a year, using it mainly because of 
its technical merits but also because it seemed to be the "anti-Microsoft". 
>From the beginning I had the utmost respect for Sun and their mission to 
build Java into the greatest thing since sliced bread. Yet, lately I am 
sensing that it may not be wise to rely on Sun alone to deliver a 
programming language based on the Java vision. There are several reasons for 
this:

1 – Sun has been unable to keep up with the demands of the developer 
community with timely bug fixes and language extensions. One only has to 
peruse through the "Bug Parade" at the JDC to see that the voice of the 
developer has gone mainly unheard while Sun's Java licensees have been able 
to work with Sun to create new APIs. Some examples of those things we are 
waiting to see are: generic programming (aka parameterized types and 
templates), regular expressions, and fixes for the mile high stack of bugs 
that we have all submitted and Sun has not addressed (or they fixed it six 
months later).

2 – With the recent news that Sun is backing out of their 2 1/2 year old 
plans to make Java an open standard through ISO one wonders what their real 
objectives have been all this time.* They claim that this is because of 
Microsoft's lobbying but there seems to be more. Sun has been trying to 
maintain its death grip on Java and still make it an open standard. These 
ideas mix like oil and water. For this reason I support ISO's choice to not 
allow Java to be standardized under such terms.

3 – Sun has yet to truly deliver on the prospect of an open-source/free 
Java. Though they have given the developer community free access to the 
source they have not moved to the model of free software (free referring to 
freedom not price). I will not reiterate the advantages that a truly 
open-source/free Java would bring because they are widely known.

4 – There seems to be a conflict of interest within Sun, they are torn 
between making Java a true cross-platform language by insuring that good VMs 
are available on all platforms and making Solaris the best platform for 
Java. This should come as no surprise since Sun is a corporation and their 
stock holders would expect them to do this. This is not however in the best 
interest of Java or the developers relying on its abilities to live up to 
its specification. This is a general problem with any technology that is 
controlled by a for profit organization.

With this said the question arises: What can we do? I believe that there are 
two options: move forward with or without Sun.

Without Sun – Members of the Java and open-source could develop and 
alternative under the GPL. Though this idea has been thrown around by the 
media there are no traces of a significant movement to accomplish such a 
feat. Unlike projects like Classpath and the various VMs this would be a 
different language outside of the control of Sun and their license and 
compatibility tests.

With Sun – Java developers can throw a "hissy fit" over the ISO fiasco, and 
other issues, in an attempt to raise further awareness within Sun. The focus 
of this movement would have to be moving Java to a truly open model not just 
having some organization certify Java as a standard (that is not good 
enough). There have been plenty of complaints about Sun out there but I am 
speaking of something much larger. The sort of negative media attention that 
would make Sun look like Microsoft and thus force them to take some action. 
I believe that it is possible for this to happen given the spot light that 
has been placed on the open-source community by the media (all we need is 
one quote from Linus and too say that it has a lot to do with Linux – 
buzzwords!).

I personally believe that we should move forward without Sun. Even if Java 
is a "perfect" solution for you the competition would be a positive 
consequence of the effort. And like the media attention this would raise 
Sun's awareness and they would fear that their powerful position could be 
compromised. Of course there is also the likely prospect that the effort 
would succeed and all our prayers would be answered.

So what do you think?

* Read the recent Wired article at 
http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/19413.html


___
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: Sun Bashing 2

1999-04-29 Thread Matt Welsh


I usually can't stand flame bait like this but I wanted to point out one
thing.

Sun has clearly recognized some of the advantages of the Open Source model,
which is the entire reason why they have adopted the 'Sun Community Source
License' for a large number of their products -- including the JDK. 

This link is the paper 'Sun Community Source License Principles' which does
a fair job at explaining the motivation behind the license:
http://www.sun.com/981208/scsl/principles.html
It would behoove one to familiarize oneself with this before ranting on
about everything Sun is doing wrong -- there is a lot they're doing right,
too.

Sun is very concerned with the potential 'splintering' of Java 
standarization efforts. The idea is that if many offshoots of Java are
propagated, this seriously weakens the overall adaptation of Java technology
and would become a weak spot in Sun's desire to make Java a universal 
standard -- thereby allowing stronger market forces (such as Microsoft) to
essentially destroy Java once and for all. I think we can all agree that
this would be a Bad Thing.

So, there is a clear tension between the desire to make Java truly Open
Source and the desire to prevent it from fragmenting to the point where its
market penetration is weakened. Clearly, as supporters of Java, we should be
supportive of both goals. Otherwise it will be all too easy for someone else
to come along with a "Java killer" which ends up dominating the market in
its place. 

So, give Sun a little slack. They are making an honest effort to do the
right thing. It is far more constructive to work within the framework which
they are trying to build, and to provide useful feedback on that framework,
than simply "jumping ship" on Sun altogether. That approach can't do anything 
good for Java in the long run. 

mdw


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: Sun Bashing 2

1999-04-29 Thread Ken McNeil

>I usually can't stand flame bait like this but I wanted to point out one
>thing.

How is this "flaim bait"? This is a topic that has been thrown around by 
plenty, and unless you work for Sun I see no reason why this should seem 
offensive to you.

>This link is the paper 'Sun Community Source License Principles' which does
>a fair job at explaining the motivation behind the license:
>   http://www.sun.com/981208/scsl/principles.html
>It would behoove one to familiarize oneself with this before ranting on
>about everything Sun is doing wrong -- there is a lot they're doing right,
>too.

I have read it (not just the summary) and I like many others I believe they 
have not gone far enough. There is a fundamental problem that must be 
addressed:

***How do you deal with a platform controlled by a corporation?***

>So, there is a clear tension between the desire to make Java truly Open
>Source and the desire to prevent it from fragmenting to the point where its
>market penetration is weakened. Clearly, as supporters of Java, we should 
>be
>supportive of both goals. Otherwise it will be all too easy for someone 
>else
>to come along with a "Java killer" which ends up dominating the market in
>its place.

This is were my opinions differ from many. I believe that even though the 
splintering of Java (Sun's Java not just a Java like language) would be 
negative, creating a viable alternative is important. There is currently 
nothing like Java out there and this is not only dangerous but odd when you 
look at the number of other languages out there. A fundamental part of the 
evolution of a technology is competition.

>So, give Sun a little slack. They are making an honest effort to do the
>right thing. It is far more constructive to work within the framework which
>they are trying to build, and to provide useful feedback on that framework,
>than simply "jumping ship" on Sun altogether. That approach can't do 
>anything
>good for Java in the long run.

Competition is good for Java!

Note: I am in no way proposing that an alternative actually begin being 
developed at this point. I am simply speaking about it here because it is an 
interesting subject. And since anyone who uses Java and Linux together 
should be especially sensitive to this issue.


___
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: Sun Bashing 2

1999-04-29 Thread Ken McNeil

>I'll second you on the bugs issue and the problem with Suns 1001 API's
>approach.  However to be fair you probably picked a bad eg. with
>parametric types as Sun has just put up a proposal for them.

I thank you for pointing this out, but they should have responded earlier. By not 
implementing this in Java 2 but instead creating the new collections API (which is an 
outstanding API based on the tools available in the language) they have done a great 
injustice to the developers. Many have built designs paritally around this new 
framework and would have to revise existing code significanlty because of the large 
differences between the two solutions to the need for a collections library.

There isn't any need for a Java
>alternative because there is _nothing_ fundementally wrong with Java -
>only _implementations_ of it.  However this is slowly being overcome - I
>would suggest that if you want to see a good quality Java implementation
>that you contribute to one of the free alternatives
>kaffe/japhar+classpath/etc.  Even if you have been crippled by signing
>Suns licensing - you can at least run the programs maybe send in bugs
>fixes, write test scripts, docs, whatever.
>
>IMHO you're suggestion of an alternative to Java (I guess you mean the
>whole platform - ie. langauge,VM & class lib API) is on the same level
>as M$'s latest announcement of their alternative to Java (I forget its
>name - "Magic" or something like that).

The alternative is code named Cool, but I think there is a fundamental difference. The 
idea is to seperate Java from Sun and there corporate goals not to kill Java in 
general. I believe without seperating the two we will always be fighting this conflict 
of interest. And since many believe (like I do) that Java will evolve into *the* 
platform it seems wise to fight this sooner than later. If removing the profit motive 
from Java requires creating a new platform so be it.

>I think I (and probably alot of other people) have spent alot of time
>and effort learning java, writing apps in java and are happy with java.
>I for one am more then happy with java and would rather work on
>improving its implementations then expending what would be need to be
>_huge_ amounts of resources on the of chance of coming up with something
>comparable.  Such an effort would not be an answer to any of my prayers.

I see this as just another example of GPL'ing a commercial product and thus the small 
pains of incompatablity would be warranted. Anyways, there is no need to change the 
fundamentals of the language to the point that there would be any kind of significant 
learning curve.

>Well having critised, its only fair for me to put forward an alternative
>suggestion:  Move ahead with STANDARDISATION WITHOUT Sun.  Surely its
>possible for ANSI/ISO to produce a standard without Sun.  The API's,JVM
>& langauge specs are all published - only Java(tm)(c)(whatever) really
>is Suns property - so why not have the ANSI/ISO  "J" standard, which
>just happens to be based on Suns Java.
>
>Now I admit I'm to young to know first hand what happened with C, but
>from what I've read K&R invented C, lots of people used/implemented it,
>ANSI after alot of work made a Standard for C that was a bit different
>from the original that everyone now uses (admittedly this is very
>simplified view of history).

I'm also to young to know the history of that event, but I wonder if this sort of 
action could be contested by Sun on legal grounds. K&R wasn't a commercial product (or 
was it?). If this was to be legal it would be a great option to avoid the problems I 
spoke of in my original post and I would support it.


___
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Magician => works on JDK1.2 but ...

1999-04-29 Thread Niels Hilbrink

Dear all,

I posted a message yesterday saying that I couldn't get Magician to work
... wel now it works, after loading the shared library my self. 

I get the following error (in a pop-up menu "Magician Error"):

Library load[0]: ml

I look to me that it tries to load the libmlxsm.so shared lib but that
the name some how gets mangeled. This happens in the "internal" routines
from magician, to which I don't have any access. 

Q: Does anybody have a solution for this, just in case people from
arcana are monitoring this group : Please fix this)

Gr.
Niels
-- 
Stehlin Merazzi Research sa.  tel : +41 32 345 2123 - direct   
http://www.smr.ch   +41 79 607 1014 - mobile
Rue Dufour 109b +41 32 345 2120 - fax
CH-2500 Bienne 4, Switzerland


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: Sun Bashing 2

1999-04-29 Thread jstorrier



I think it also worth mentioning that Java is barely 2 years old. Just because
we are used to working with developed languages like C, C++ or whatever else
tickles your fancy - that doesn't mean we can forcefully matriculate Java to
suit our time frame.

I honestly believe that Sun is doing the right thing at the moment (but that
isn't hard, because anyone who files an action against Microsoft is doing the
right thing! :>). Sure there is a pile of bug fixes to get through, sure there
might be a bit of the '1001 API' syndrome, but it's still early days.

You don't force a newborn baby to walk before they've crawled...

It isn't a perfected language yet, but it just keeps getting better, and I'm
definately going to stick with it.

James



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: Problems appending to a file

1999-04-29 Thread Jeff Galyan

"Frank B. Brokken" wrote:
> 
> Dear listmembers,
> 
> I have a problem using FileOutputStreams. I want to be able to append to
> an existing file, and I would like to be able to read the information back
> later.
> 

If you want to write the Strings as text appended to the file, you're
better off using a RandomAccessFile and calling writeUTF(String).

try {
RandomAccessFile raf = new RandomAccessFile("myfile", "rw");
raf.seek(raf.length());
raf.writeUTF("hello\n");
raf.writeUTF("world\n"); // omit '\n' if you want the words
 // on one line
raf.close();
} catch (IOException ioe) {
// do something with it
}

Reading in a String is done with readUTF().

If you need this to go into a binary format file, writeUTF() and
readUTF() are useful as well. The writeObject() methods don't work well
for appending files, as they are object serialization methods and expect
a single object to be read/written per file. Appending objects onto one
another is likely causing the class verifier to think the objects are
corrupted.



-- 
Jeff Galyan
http://www.anamorphic.com
http://www.sun.com
jeffrey dot galyan at sun dot com
talisman at anamorphic dot com
Sun Certified Java(TM) Programmer
==
Linus Torvalds on Microsoft and software development:
"... if it's a hobby for me and a job for you, why are you doing such a
shoddy job of it?"

The views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.

Sun Microsystems, Inc., has no connection to my involvement with the
Mozilla Organization.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: javax.swing.preview not found

1999-04-29 Thread Jeff Galyan

Robert Williams wrote:
> 
> 
> import javax.swing.preview.*;
> 
> returns a "not found in import" message.
> Is this something new that hasn't found it's way
> into the blackdown release?
> 
The package com.sun.java.swing.preview no longer exists. The archive on
java.sun.com still has old code in it, as evidenced by the "com.sun"
package names for the Swing packages. Just remove both imports of the
preview package and you should have no problems with imports. Comb that
source file for methods that don't exist anymore, too - it's a pretty
old example. 

-- 
Jeff Galyan
http://www.anamorphic.com
http://www.sun.com
jeffrey dot galyan at sun dot com
talisman at anamorphic dot com
Sun Certified Java(TM) Programmer
==
Linus Torvalds on Microsoft and software development:
"... if it's a hobby for me and a job for you, why are you doing such a
shoddy job of it?"

The views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.

Sun Microsystems, Inc., has no connection to my involvement with the
Mozilla Organization.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]