Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
Pedro Melo wrote: On Mar 30, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Tomasz Sterna wrote: Dnia 2008-03-29, sob o godzinie 22:20 +0100, Paweł Pacana pisze: I would like to propose/extend your GSoC idea of open web based Jabber/XMPP client Maybe this is kind of off-topic, but... Why another web client? What is wrong with JWChat? And if there is something, maybe it's better to put the efforts in extending/fixing JWChat? That's just not how human nature works. Unless you are being chased by very large and terrifying beasts, that will eat your young, humans don't rally and join forces. And in our little world, I don't think MSN and Yahoo are out to eat our young, at least not anymore. I love the fact that new developers come to XMPP with fresh enthusiasm and ideas, look around and say I can do better than that. I love to see them try and do it all from the start. Most will fail, but some will succeed and will gain a respect by the small details in the XMPP specs, they will gain a experience that you cannot get anywhere else. And the point of Google Summer of Code is for the students to learn, not primarily for students to contribute to an existing project. At the same time, I think it's good to impeove existing projects rather than starting something new all the time. :) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Peter Saint-Andre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And the point of Google Summer of Code is for the students to learn, not primarily for students to contribute to an existing project. And also for them to participate in opensource comminities - I think the XSF is in the minority in being a mentoring org. where it's possible to start a new project. /K
Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
On Mar 30, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Tomasz Sterna wrote: Dnia 2008-03-29, sob o godzinie 22:20 +0100, Paweł Pacana pisze: I would like to propose/extend your GSoC idea of open web based Jabber/XMPP client Maybe this is kind of off-topic, but... Why another web client? What is wrong with JWChat? And if there is something, maybe it's better to put the efforts in extending/fixing JWChat? That's just not how human nature works. Unless you are being chased by very large and terrifying beasts, that will eat your young, humans don't rally and join forces. And in our little world, I don't think MSN and Yahoo are out to eat our young, at least not anymore. I love the fact that new developers come to XMPP with fresh enthusiasm and ideas, look around and say I can do better than that. I love to see them try and do it all from the start. Most will fail, but some will succeed and will gain a respect by the small details in the XMPP specs, they will gain a experience that you cannot get anywhere else. The argument that they should be (or that we all would be) better off helping existing projects is flawed: 1. existing projects are rarely well documented that someone could start off and do stuff; 2. its difficult to get instant recognition in a existing project (and again human nature loves recognition); 3. you'll have to convince the current leaders of said project that your crazy ideas are worth the trouble of messing with the code. In the end, I believe the most important part is to have great low- level toolkits so that developers can come with crazy ideas and implement them quickly. I don't have no problems that they do it on their own. The existing projects, if they like what they see, they will pick up on the ideas, and if possible in the code, and integrate it with their own code base. Everybody wins. IMHO, of course. Best regards, -- HIId: Pedro Melo SMTP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] XMPP: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
Dnia 2008-03-29, sob o godzinie 22:20 +0100, Paweł Pacana pisze: I would like to propose/extend your GSoC idea of open web based Jabber/XMPP client Maybe this is kind of off-topic, but... Why another web client? What is wrong with JWChat? And if there is something, maybe it's better to put the efforts in extending/fixing JWChat? -- /\_./o__ Tomasz Sterna (/^/(_^^' http://www.xiaoka.com/ ._.(_.)_ im:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
2008/3/30, Tomasz Sterna [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dnia 2008-03-29, sob o godzinie 22:20 +0100, Paweł Pacana pisze: I would like to propose/extend your GSoC idea of open web based Jabber/XMPP client Maybe this is kind of off-topic, but... Why another web client? What is wrong with JWChat? And if there is something, maybe it's better to put the efforts in extending/fixing JWChat? Because competition can result in a better JWChat client *and* a new client...and 2 good clients is better than 1 ;-) -- Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
Dnia 2008-03-30, nie o godzinie 17:48 +0200, Sander Devrieze pisze: Why another web client? What is wrong with JWChat? And if there is something, maybe it's better to put the efforts in extending/fixing JWChat? Because competition can result in a better JWChat client *and* a new client...and 2 good clients is better than 1 ;-) The competition law would be true if we were on the commercial free market. But once we are in the Open Source world, I seriously doubt that we have enough manpower to use the competition to our advantage. On the contrary - experience shows that segmentation of efforts in OSS leads to gazilions of half-finished projects. See sf.net for reference. -- /\_./o__ Tomasz Sterna (/^/(_^^' http://www.xiaoka.com/ ._.(_.)_ im:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
2008/3/30, Tomasz Sterna [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dnia 2008-03-30, nie o godzinie 17:48 +0200, Sander Devrieze pisze: Why another web client? What is wrong with JWChat? And if there is something, maybe it's better to put the efforts in extending/fixing JWChat? Because competition can result in a better JWChat client *and* a new client...and 2 good clients is better than 1 ;-) The competition law would be true if we were on the commercial free market. But once we are in the Open Source world, I seriously doubt that we have enough manpower to use the competition to our advantage. On the contrary - experience shows that segmentation of efforts in OSS leads to gazilions of half-finished projects. ...at least the Coccinella and the ejabberd projects learned from projects that died. E.g., ejabberd has some of the features we found in the WPJabber changelog and Mats fixed compatibility bugs in Coccinella found when testing things like file transfers with other clients (some of them now death of semi-death). So yes, I'm in favour of *more* new XMPP clients, *more* new XMPP servers, and *more* new XMPP libraries. Advantages of *more*: * people who start new projects are creative and have interesting ideas regarding features and interface design--incumbent projects will see these sexy features and will copy them (at least we actively do this at Coccinella, and other projects at least do this passively by users requesting the same features) * more people will thoroughly look at the core specifications of XMPP and thus more bugs and implementation issues in them will be found--the XMPP specifications will get better and this will benefit the whole community * more compliancy bugs with incumbent projects will be found and these issues can be fixed. A good example of this is when ejabberd started to become much more popular where in the past jabberd14 had a monopolistic market share. When this happened several client and library projects found out they had implemented some XMPP specs wrongly.--with more clients, libraries and servers, the Web of Compliancy will get stronger and it will be hard to be incompliant. This is a good protection against strategies like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish See sf.net for reference. How many campanies go bankrupt each year? How many of them go bankrupt within the first 5 years of their existence. This number is high, especially in highly competitive industries like the Horeca. Anyway, in case you are interested you can find some bankruptcy statistics for Belgium here: http://statbel.fgov.be/indicators/bri_en.asp -- Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
2008/3/29 Paweł Pacana [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello. I would like to propose/extend your GSoC idea of open web based Jabber/XMPP client I plan this client to be: * lightweight - light and clean UI - ajax to enhance user experience but rather in google chat than meebo/soashable way - standard set of chat features * embeddable - many use cases: someone can run his own application client somewhere on protected site someone can attach chat client to webmail or social networking site * extensible - wsgi - filters/plugins mechanism ie. filter saving incoming and outgoing messages to history or autoresponding when away, etc. - changeable XMPP backend (not sure yet) idea is to let single users use for example BOSH and more demanding users other xmpp-backend like twibber or kamaelia To accomplish this i would like to use Python language - Pylons framework, Zodb database and appropriate xmpp python implementation. This is just a brief draft, I am working on more specific proposal and extracting deliverables. Please, let me know what you think about it. Is there any python BOSH implementation? Punjab is a twisted python implementation. http://www.butterfat.net/wiki/Projects/PunJab -- Best regards, Paweł Pacana
Re: [jdev] GSoC proposal - open web XMPP client
I would like to propose/extend your GSoC idea of open web based Jabber/XMPP client Also, feel free to use strophe.js which is an XMPP framework in javascript which interacts with bosh. We have not made a formal release, but you can find it in the javascript source at www.chesspark.com/play I believe it has GPL license tags on it already. jack.
