Re: I wish I had *never* worked with Interwoven Teamsite
On Fri, Apr 09, 2004 at 05:06:32PM -0400, Terrence Brannon wrote: Ok, so I did XML grokking for an Interwoven Teamsite project... and now what?? Every recruiter and their grandmother emails me whenever they are looking for an Interwoven developer even though I know nothing about Interwoven. Sigh... Teamsite is mired its long goodbye. There was a spot of time when all of a sudden, every large organization in DC was looking for someone to manage/upgrade/develop on Teamsite or Interwoven. (I suspect there were many more openings that didn't advertise that as highly..) Sounds like it pays top dollar but good luck finding someone because (a) no one does/wants to do it anymore, and (b) those who have experience lack the specific overspecilizations your business requires. Maybe we (as an industry) will learn something this time around... Z.
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
The difference is apparently because like mechanics and engineers we work with machines, while doctors and lawyers for that matter work with people, or systems made and managed by people. Oh wait, that's starting to sound like what we do. :) Computer information system professionals work with ***people***, not machines, just like plumbers, electricians and accountants. When the systems fail, people die, power grids go off line, banking systems and the money supply get interupted causing a cascade of missery, and even deaths. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Makes me wonder how those professionals are certified or licensed or whatever, and of what practical value to employers and managers those qualifications really are. cf. http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html A certification which is not MANDATED by the government for practice is without much value. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Are the professional associations in medicine law legally mandated, or just professionally expected? They are not legally mandated but in the case of lawyers, you 'Join' the bar when you pass your board, and being a bar member IS what gives you the authority to practice Law. No how is that for professional independence. In medicine, MD's are not 'joined' into state organization. They are licensed by the state directly. The AMA writes the GMA and the Medical Board test, set the standards for internship, and qualify the medical schools. What about Certified Public Accountants? I thought CPAs were granted by universities, not states. Am I wrong about that? Yes - you are incorrect. A CPA has to pass a battery of exams produced by the professional organizations and it takes years to go from Graduate to CPA. Passage of the exams gives makes you a state licensed CPA. Then you are mandated to get continuing education to retain lisensure. This is also true of Actuaries. And this is probibly the model which IT needs to go to assure professionaliztion and security of the public interest. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
So Ruben, this is the land of entrepreneurialism...what efforts are you making to make your dream off unionizing IT people a reality? Have you spoken with anyone in an actual union? Why do they think they will be able to succeed where they never have before? Best, Barry At 10:46 AM 4/12/2004 -0400, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: Makes me wonder how those professionals are certified or licensed or whatever, and of what practical value to employers and managers those qualifications really are. cf. http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html A certification which is not MANDATED by the government for practice is without much value. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 08:55:58AM -0700, Barry Caplan wrote: So Ruben, this is the land of entrepreneurialism...what efforts are you making to make your dream off unionizing IT people a reality? Have you spoken with anyone in an actual union? Why do they think they will be able to succeed where they never have before? Are you throwing down the guantlet to me :) Unionization is probibly not appropriate for IT. Licensure is probibly the way. And the first step is to create a more powerful and enabled professional organization, IMO. The FSCC was designed to start this process. It will take years. I'll be retired before this becomes a reality. But I believe it will happen. I think there is no relisitic choice for public security reasons alone. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Oops wrong gauntlet. I thought you said something about making licensing a requirement to be hired. yes - like Every Other Profession*** from stock brokers to MD's. but this is Unionization. Aside from how you could enforce that without union activity... In Pharmacy is it is under the NY State Controlled Substances Act, Article 33, Chapter 11 of the Adminstration Rules and Reg, Subchapter J part 80, The Comprehessive Drug Abuse Prevention and Controll Act of 1970 - Public Law 91-513 on the Federal Level Article 137 of the NY State Education Law, section 6800-6827, and part 63 (which defines licensing and requirments). Also section 130 of the Education Law, subartcle 2,3,4. Regents Rules part 17,24,28,29,59 and more. IT needs similar mandates for Certified Computer Information Analysts (CCIA). But I still think licensing is just as unlikely to make anyone care. i Then empoyers will ***GO TO JAIL*** for operating an unsafe publically available information service. For one thing, how will you grandfather everyone in? This is an issue for the Professional Association (let's call it NYCCIA). They'll set the standards and recommend them to the Board of Public Digital Infrastructure Services, who will propagate the rules rules based on this board and the parant national orgazition. Future members will require passing the battery of board exams and a minimum accredited College degree baring program. For another, don't you think technology changes too fast to determine the IT changes at the pace os a crawling WORM compared to medicine and law. test in time? How much bureaucracy do you think this is going to take? - Oh wait now I see how it is going to create jobs :) As much as it needs to in order to assure proper oversite and public safety. How is what you are proposing anything short of a hidden tarriff on using code developed overseas? How would you plan to certify a gameboy or vcr or a toshiba laptop? There is no tarrif, hidden or otherwise. In fact, this is likely to DECREASE cost as viruses and spam are eliminated and disasters are overted. How much was the cost of the year 2000 upgrade? How much was the cost of the 2003 blackout? Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
You are overstating the case by a very wide margin. Name 5 professions which is not licensed outside of IT. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Ruben == Ruben Safir Secretary Nylxs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ruben Name 5 professions which is not licensed outside of IT. Thank you for that, Ruben. You now owe me a new keyboard and screen, since I did a spit-take upon reading this posting. I needed a good laugh. Thanks! -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
At 02:37 PM 4/12/2004, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: Name 5 professions which is not licensed outside of IT. What about drycleaners? Whoops, just remembered the Seinfeld episode where the Drycleaners Code of Ethics was prominently mentioned. Musicians? Artists? Mechanics? Excavators? Drycleaners was gonna be my fifth but now not so sure anymore. I'd be interested in the correlation between professional and trade licensing and on the job abilities, in any field. Which is sort of why I gave that link; for me at least the situation described in http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html rings true, or at least credible.
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Say again? These are professions? Maybe Excavators are listed. The request was to end the thread. So I'm stopping now. But the need to learn what a legal profession is needed. (hint stripping is not one). Ironically, strippers are licensed in some states/countries How are they not professions? Musicians? Artists? Mechanics? Excavators? Drycleaners was gonna be my fifth but now not so sure anymore. The problem still boils down to implementation, the professions mentioned that are licensed are *old* (meaning hundreds if not thousands of years). OK - How about Radiology. Radiology is still a subcategory of the Medical Profession... you got the point didn't you? By the way, Radiology dates back to 1895... http://danconia.org
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
At 04:52 PM 4/12/2004, DK Smith wrote: Do professional licenses inflate the price of professional services? Considering that corporate executives and politicians don't require licenses? is this one explanation for the high cost of Health Care services? I don't know why that would be. Hopefully it's one factor that keeps incidents of malpractice lower rather than higher. Relevant imo is that short of the courtroom, definition of malpractice in any licensed profession though I'm thinking of medicine now in particular is based on peer review. While all of this does obviously cause much overhead, it may indeed be worth it in implied assurances to the public. After all, just how many bridges have fallen, tunnels and buildings collapsed in our lifetime due to faulty design and construction? Albeit while architects and engineers are licensed, I'm guessing that construction workers and their supervisors for the most part are not. Marty
