Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
On Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004, at 11:40 US/Eastern, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Ruben == Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ruben Try New York. It must be something to do with the location because Ruben almost all the New Yorkers I've met can learn to do this to a degree Ruben proficient enough to be very useful programmers. Maybe your *friends* in New York. Would you trust an average New York cabbie or hot dog vendor to write some subroutines for you? I certainly wouldn't. How about the guy driving the garbage truck? How about the waiter that has to look at the cash register to make change? Yeah, but the guys driving cabs, collecting garbage, waiting tables all used to be programmers... I think a better way of looking at it is: What quality of code do you think these 'useful programmers' produce? Based on the length and intelligence level of this thread I suspect my mom would be a useful programmer. I suspect that overall, the number of flashing 12:00s on VCRs in new york is not much different from that of Iowa. :) And on that, I rest my case. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Anyone read the May 2004 issue of Dr.Dobbs, there are a few articles that I find interesting (description of the P4 architecture, A Manifesto for Collabortive Tools, Motion estimation and MPEG Encoding). How many of you that have actually read those articles to completion were fully able to comprehend exactly what the authors were talking about? Where am I going with this? Well, to me it seems there is plenty of work still out there that needs to be done. Does anyone know what the word innovation means? www.m-w.com says it means the introduction of something new, a new idea method or device, a novelty. I dont completely agree with the idea of innovation being something novel. Unless it is something useful and meaningful. There are probably alot of RFC's out there that are worth reading that havent been glossed over. As programmers we are in a very unique field, we cant really compare our profession to other professions. For the most part we arent inhibited by law. Granted there are laws that protect proprietary software but who cares about them? I mean really think about it? If all the worlds proprietary software companies imploded in the next few months who would step up to the plate? The Free Software coders and we would create a far better and more stable product that would earn the publics trust. As opposed to force the public to trust us, which is a tactic that the proprietary sofware makes choose. The only reason our industry may need licensure is to maintain our integrity, we would have to maintain some semblence of professionalism. Which would actually be enforcable by corporate environments that encourage its employee's to innovate. The best way I see to force innovation is for software makers to GPL everything they do. You will see how fast all the worlds networks become ultra stable and secure. You will also witness a speeding up of the weeding out process of intermediate and professional programmers. So the next time you complain about wages think about the bottleneck that is proprietary software. Steve M On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 09:36:36AM -0700, DK Smith wrote: What the fech is going on in the tech world? I am frustrated with these pay rates. It is very disturbing, career-wise. Take for example the job posting I share below... The only thing it has to do with perl-jobs is that Perl must be used somewhere in the 70+ host infrastructure which they want managed and evolved! (so I hope this post is OK). Welcome to the real world. This is why most serious working professions have seeked out government protection or unionization over time. Individuals have almost zero chance of affected decent working wages in a brass tacks, no holds bar, laize-fare economy without either a professional License (ie: like attonies, doctors, accountants, plumbers and carpeters), or a Free labor Union (ie Auto Workers, Truck Drivers, UPS Workers, Steel Workers, Construction Workers, etc). Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585 NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene Fair Use - because it's either fair use or useless NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 13:20:38 -0400, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote There is no supply and demand issue. There is a licensing issue. Do you really think that anything which 90% of the 'competent' geeks do can't be learned by the other 140 million adults in the US or the 650,000,000 million adults in India? This isnt a licensing issue, this is a comprehension issue. The problem with the IT profession is that there are too many 'competent geeks' and not enough professionals. What a competent geek may be capable of is beyond the scope of the majority of the population. And who decides what is competent anyway? The market? If so, it's doing a pretty poor job of it, especially in this market dominated by legal monopolies. Anyway, don't learn the lessons of this recession if you don't want to. At 40, I'm reaching the outgoing part of my career cycle and have a Pharmacy License to fall back on, which pretty much guarantees me a living wage, regardless of the insanity which has racked to IT industry for a long as I can remember, going back over 20 years. This is where licensing would play an important role, reading comprehension. Just because someone is a competent geek doesnt necessarily mean that person is capable of fully understanding well thought out abstract software specs. The ball is in the court of the younger folks if they want to finally professionalize IT or continue being underpaid and unempowered to make the safe, rational responsible IT decisions which, going into the future, are going to be increasing important to protect and secure the national money supply, physical infrastructure, and social fabric of our society. The reason the IT industry is in the state it is in is because there are too many managers running around pretending to be software developers. They fail to understand the workings of a system on a finer granular level. Ruben On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:01:43AM -0700, Neil Bauman wrote: Personally, I think it's a simple question of supply and demand. I think wages will improve as the supply of competent geeks starts to evaporate. This, however, is apt to take another year or so. We are seeing a lot of jobs posted but it will take time for our supply to become more scarce. I have heard that the number of people going into Comp Sci, for instance, is greatly diminished. Like all things, there's an ebb and flow. On 4/11/04 at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS) wrote: On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 09:36:36AM -0700, DK Smith wrote: What the fech is going on in the tech world? I am frustrated with these pay rates. It is very disturbing, career-wise. Take for example the job posting I share below... The only thing it has to do with perl-jobs is that Perl must be used somewhere in the 70+ host infrastructure which they want managed and evolved! (so I hope this post is OK). Welcome to the real world. This is why most serious working professions have seeked out government protection or unionization over time. Individuals have almost zero chance of affected decent working wages in a brass tacks, no holds bar, laize-fare economy without either a professional License (ie: like attonies, doctors, accountants, plumbers and carpeters), or a Free labor Union (ie Auto Workers, Truck Drivers, UPS Workers, Steel Workers, Construction Workers, etc). Ruben -- Neil R. Bauman, Captain CEO Geek Cruises (www.GeekCruises.com) A Division of Int'l. Technology Conferences, Inc. 1430 Parkinson Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94301 650-327-3692; Fax: 928-396-2102; Cell phone: 215-519-0141 /7_/7 \:::/ ~~~ Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. -- Mark Twain *** Do you play or love MUSIC? Book by July 1, and save $300! http://www.geekcruises.com/pdf/Smokin'_on_the_Water.pdf *** -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585 NYLXS: New
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 16:40, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: This isnt a licensing issue, this is a comprehension issue. The problem with the IT profession is that there are too many 'competent geeks' and not enough professionals. What a competent geek may be capable of is beyond the scope of the majority of the population. Wrong Computers are for everyone. You have a growth market of some 50 million workers in the US alone. Under what form of magic do you believe that any of the basic allorgithms involved in program design is beyound ANY normal adults grasp? No I dont think that a basic algorithm is beyond the grasp of any normal adult. What I am saying is that any adult who wants to contribute meaningful code should pass this licensure. The premise of a licensure should be based on comprehension not only in being able to understand the basics of an algorithm. The test should also consist of a portion where the test taker is able to demonstrate comprehension of abstract programming methods. As well as being able to explain those abstract methods in an everyday language. If what your saying is true, your in the wrong field because dependency of such 'rare' guiniess is not enough fuel for an industry to make. This doesnt require the level of genius you think doesnt exist. Anyone who is able to understand a novel would probably be able to perform well on this sort of test. It's not guenius which is fuels the digital age, nor is guenus providing pay scales. Its innovation that fuels the digital age, in fact its innovation that fuels any economy. On the one hand the steel makers were right to try to protect themselves from competition. On the other hand they acted not unlike the domestic automakers during the late part of the last century. Protecting their territory long enough to try to make up for the miscalculation they made in foreign imports. For that matter, gueniuses can't even guarantee good pay for themselves, forgetting about the other some 50 million individual intellectual giants needed for today. IT industry, like any other profession, depends on skilled educated craftsmen, with fidiciary responsibility. And Licensing these skilled worked is the single fastest means to assuring them fair payment for their skills and oversite of the most important criticle infrastructure in today world. Yes, skilled and educated. Craftspeople? Well, is writing a book a craft, is it a skill or is it a talent? We have to keep in mind that programming is not like any other 'trade' out there. It is a melding of many trades and a big mistake would be to compare in too much depth to any other 'trade'. Steve M Ruben
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Steve == Steve M [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If what your saying is true, your in the wrong field because dependency of such 'rare' guiniess is not enough fuel for an industry to make. Steve This doesnt require the level of genius you think doesnt exist. Anyone Steve who is able to understand a novel would probably be able to perform well Steve on this sort of test. Well, I'm gonna disagree with you there, by analogy. :) Almost all of my (adult) friends have no problem reading and following a good sci-fi or fantasy novel. Very few of them could *write* such a novel in any way that would have my interest. Similarly, sure, we can teach almost anyone to read a computer program. But the skill to *write* a computer program is not necessarily trainable to everyone. It requires some innate sense of abstract reasoning and problem solving that is definitely available only to a small portion of the adult population in my experience. Maybe some of you live sheltered lives, hanging out only with nerds. You gotta get out more often. :) Think of how many VCRs are out there that are *flashing 12:00*. Doh! -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Youre basing your argument on a parable? Who cares about short fictitious stories when trying to discuss facts and quantifiable results? Steve M Makes me wonder how those professionals are certified or licensed or whatever, and of what practical value to employers and managers those qualifications really are. cf. http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene Fair Use - because it's either fair use or useless NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc -- Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)
RE: [hangout] Re: pittance
Now Now, don't let the FACTS or TRUTH get in the American way. -- In The Business World An Executive Knows Something About Everything, A Technician Knows Everything About Something, And the Switchboard Operator Knows Everything. No one person is smarter than their team! -Original Message- From: Steve Milo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 12:20 PM To: Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS; Marty Landman Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Randal L. Schwartz; jobs- [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hangout] Re: pittance Youre basing your argument on a parable? Who cares about short fictitious stories when trying to discuss facts and quantifiable results? Steve M Makes me wonder how those professionals are certified or licensed or whatever, and of what practical value to employers and managers those qualifications really are. cf. http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene Fair Use - because it's either fair use or useless NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc -- Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org) NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene Fair Use - because it's either fair use or useless NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: A certification which is not MANDATED by the government for practice is without much value. Are the professional associations in medicine law legally mandated, or just professionally expected? I know that these fields have licenses and such, but I thought they were operated by respected professional organizations (medical boards, the state bar associations) rather than being actual legal affairs. What about Certified Public Accountants? I thought CPAs were granted by universities, not states. Am I wrong about that? I agree with you that some form of professional accreditation wouldn't be a bad thing, but I'm not sure that it has to be government backed. If we had some kind of computer science guild (ACM?), they could fill this role at least as well as any government, no? -- Chris Devers hardly a libertarian by any stretch, but willing to be a devil's advocate
RE: [hangout] Re: pittance
If you try to unionize IT who would the union negotiate with? -- In The Business World An Executive Knows Something About Everything, A Technician Knows Everything About Something, And the Switchboard Operator Knows Everything. No one person is smarter than their team! -Original Message- From: Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 12:59 PM To: Barry Caplan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hangout] Re: pittance On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 08:55:58AM -0700, Barry Caplan wrote: So Ruben, this is the land of entrepreneurialism...what efforts are you making to make your dream off unionizing IT people a reality? Have you spoken with anyone in an actual union? Why do they think they will be able to succeed where they never have before? Are you throwing down the guantlet to me :) Unionization is probibly not appropriate for IT. Licensure is probibly the way. And the first step is to create a more powerful and enabled professional organization, IMO. The FSCC was designed to start this process. It will take years. I'll be retired before this becomes a reality. But I believe it will happen. I think there is no relisitic choice for public security reasons alone. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585 NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene Fair Use - because it's either fair use or useless NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
At 02:37 PM 4/12/2004, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: Name 5 professions which is not licensed outside of IT. What about drycleaners? Whoops, just remembered the Seinfeld episode where the Drycleaners Code of Ethics was prominently mentioned. Musicians? Artists? Mechanics? Excavators? Drycleaners was gonna be my fifth but now not so sure anymore. I'd be interested in the correlation between professional and trade licensing and on the job abilities, in any field. Which is sort of why I gave that link; for me at least the situation described in http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html rings true, or at least credible. Marty Landman Face 2 Interface Inc. 845-679-9387 Web Installed Formmailer: http://face2interface.com/Products/Formal.shtml FormATable DB: http://face2interface.com/Products/FormATable.shtml Make a Website: http://face2interface.com/Home/Demo.shtml
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Steve Milo wrote: On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 13:23:09 -0400, The Cranky Old Man Secretary NYLXS wrote Where am I going with this? Down to unemployment to collect your check? I'm done with them. Time to start innovating again. You got a Perl job with Microsoft? Congratulations! Anyway, weren't people asked to abandon this thread on the Perl jobs list? As fun as it has been *ahem*, it has run a bit long, eh? -- Chris Devers
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
At 06:45 AM 4/13/2004, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
Similarly, sure, we can teach almost anyone to read a computer program.
I don't necessarily even agree with that... wasn't this the whole concept
behind COBOL? i.e. that being written in English looking verbiage the
source code's meaning was then accessible to management? IMO reading
implies comprehension, and while reading and writing are different skills
they are strongly related. Therefore if you could teach a person to read
comprehend a program you could also teach them to write one.
Related I think. My 12 yr old is interested in taking a programming course
in 8th or 9th grade. When she told me that I brought up a shell and then
showed her this:
perl -e 'print hello/n'
and asked her what she thought would happen when she entered it.
Then I showed her this:
perl -e 'while(1) { print hello/n;sleep 3 }'
I wanted to show her that a program could be an intuitive thing. Of course
when I showed her set theory and applied it to probability two summers ago
it was clear to me that she had just the kind of abstract mind that I
believe all of us have, that Randal mentioned and that she'd need if she
wants to become a programmer.
For me the attraction to programming has always been the thrill of making
something work. So that's how I plan on introducing it to my kid if she
develops an interest. FWIW.
But the skill to *write* a computer program is not necessarily
trainable to everyone. It requires some innate sense of abstract
reasoning and problem solving that is definitely available only to a
small portion of the adult population in my experience.
Heh, the way I look at it is that it requires honesty and truthfulness.
Everyone learns rules, and also that there are ways to cheat you can get
away with. That attitude if tempered properly may work well in people
relationships but in instructing a machine there is far less 'slack'
available. Hope that makes sense, just my two cents.
Maybe some of you live sheltered lives, hanging out only with nerds.
You gotta get out more often. :)
My wife is a fine pianist and also an accountant. And she is very skilled
at using her computer at work. Yet she still doesn't get the difference
between programs and data - she'll ask me in the context of our home office
where a file is and I'll ask her where she saved it and invariably the
answer is quickbooks or word. As a developer I'm very concerned with
usability and this has been a red light for me. It underlines the fact that
I have no clue how most of my users actually experience the software I write.
Marty
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
But the skill to *write* a computer program is not necessarily trainable to everyone. It requires some innate sense of abstract reasoning and problem solving that is definitely available only to a small portion of the adult population in my experience. Try New York. It must be something to do with the location because almost all the New Yorkers I've met can learn to do this to a degree proficient enough to be very useful programmers. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
At 11:29 AM 4/13/2004, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: Try New York. It must be something to do with the location because almost all the New Yorkers I've met can learn to do this to a degree proficient enough to be very useful programmers. Personally I think it's some kind of chemical synergy between the pizza, bagels, and Chinese food. Marty
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Maybe your *friends* in New York. Would you trust an average New York cabbie or hot dog vendor to write some subroutines for you? 100% with proper training, education and oppurtunity. In fact, this is the central thrust of life in New York. BTW - I have many friends who are cab drivers. And they make more money than most of my programming friend currently. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
2. CEO of any Corporation. Walt Mankowski wrote: On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 02:37:00PM -0400, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: You are overstating the case by a very wide margin. Name 5 professions which is not licensed outside of IT. 1. Trolling. Can we PLEASE kill this thread now?
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
The difference is apparently because like mechanics and engineers we work with machines, while doctors and lawyers for that matter work with people, or systems made and managed by people. Oh wait, that's starting to sound like what we do. :) Computer information system professionals work with ***people***, not machines, just like plumbers, electricians and accountants. When the systems fail, people die, power grids go off line, banking systems and the money supply get interupted causing a cascade of missery, and even deaths. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Makes me wonder how those professionals are certified or licensed or whatever, and of what practical value to employers and managers those qualifications really are. cf. http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html A certification which is not MANDATED by the government for practice is without much value. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Are the professional associations in medicine law legally mandated, or just professionally expected? They are not legally mandated but in the case of lawyers, you 'Join' the bar when you pass your board, and being a bar member IS what gives you the authority to practice Law. No how is that for professional independence. In medicine, MD's are not 'joined' into state organization. They are licensed by the state directly. The AMA writes the GMA and the Medical Board test, set the standards for internship, and qualify the medical schools. What about Certified Public Accountants? I thought CPAs were granted by universities, not states. Am I wrong about that? Yes - you are incorrect. A CPA has to pass a battery of exams produced by the professional organizations and it takes years to go from Graduate to CPA. Passage of the exams gives makes you a state licensed CPA. Then you are mandated to get continuing education to retain lisensure. This is also true of Actuaries. And this is probibly the model which IT needs to go to assure professionaliztion and security of the public interest. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
So Ruben, this is the land of entrepreneurialism...what efforts are you making to make your dream off unionizing IT people a reality? Have you spoken with anyone in an actual union? Why do they think they will be able to succeed where they never have before? Best, Barry At 10:46 AM 4/12/2004 -0400, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: Makes me wonder how those professionals are certified or licensed or whatever, and of what practical value to employers and managers those qualifications really are. cf. http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html A certification which is not MANDATED by the government for practice is without much value. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 08:55:58AM -0700, Barry Caplan wrote: So Ruben, this is the land of entrepreneurialism...what efforts are you making to make your dream off unionizing IT people a reality? Have you spoken with anyone in an actual union? Why do they think they will be able to succeed where they never have before? Are you throwing down the guantlet to me :) Unionization is probibly not appropriate for IT. Licensure is probibly the way. And the first step is to create a more powerful and enabled professional organization, IMO. The FSCC was designed to start this process. It will take years. I'll be retired before this becomes a reality. But I believe it will happen. I think there is no relisitic choice for public security reasons alone. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
Re: [hangout] Re: pittance
Oops wrong gauntlet. I thought you said something about making licensing a requirement to be hired. yes - like Every Other Profession*** from stock brokers to MD's. but this is Unionization. Aside from how you could enforce that without union activity... In Pharmacy is it is under the NY State Controlled Substances Act, Article 33, Chapter 11 of the Adminstration Rules and Reg, Subchapter J part 80, The Comprehessive Drug Abuse Prevention and Controll Act of 1970 - Public Law 91-513 on the Federal Level Article 137 of the NY State Education Law, section 6800-6827, and part 63 (which defines licensing and requirments). Also section 130 of the Education Law, subartcle 2,3,4. Regents Rules part 17,24,28,29,59 and more. IT needs similar mandates for Certified Computer Information Analysts (CCIA). But I still think licensing is just as unlikely to make anyone care. i Then empoyers will ***GO TO JAIL*** for operating an unsafe publically available information service. For one thing, how will you grandfather everyone in? This is an issue for the Professional Association (let's call it NYCCIA). They'll set the standards and recommend them to the Board of Public Digital Infrastructure Services, who will propagate the rules rules based on this board and the parant national orgazition. Future members will require passing the battery of board exams and a minimum accredited College degree baring program. For another, don't you think technology changes too fast to determine the IT changes at the pace os a crawling WORM compared to medicine and law. test in time? How much bureaucracy do you think this is going to take? - Oh wait now I see how it is going to create jobs :) As much as it needs to in order to assure proper oversite and public safety. How is what you are proposing anything short of a hidden tarriff on using code developed overseas? How would you plan to certify a gameboy or vcr or a toshiba laptop? There is no tarrif, hidden or otherwise. In fact, this is likely to DECREASE cost as viruses and spam are eliminated and disasters are overted. How much was the cost of the year 2000 upgrade? How much was the cost of the 2003 blackout? Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
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You are overstating the case by a very wide margin. Name 5 professions which is not licensed outside of IT. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
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Ruben == Ruben Safir Secretary Nylxs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ruben Name 5 professions which is not licensed outside of IT. Thank you for that, Ruben. You now owe me a new keyboard and screen, since I did a spit-take upon reading this posting. I needed a good laugh. Thanks! -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
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At 02:37 PM 4/12/2004, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: Name 5 professions which is not licensed outside of IT. What about drycleaners? Whoops, just remembered the Seinfeld episode where the Drycleaners Code of Ethics was prominently mentioned. Musicians? Artists? Mechanics? Excavators? Drycleaners was gonna be my fifth but now not so sure anymore. I'd be interested in the correlation between professional and trade licensing and on the job abilities, in any field. Which is sort of why I gave that link; for me at least the situation described in http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html rings true, or at least credible.
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Say again? These are professions? Maybe Excavators are listed. The request was to end the thread. So I'm stopping now. But the need to learn what a legal profession is needed. (hint stripping is not one). Ironically, strippers are licensed in some states/countries How are they not professions? Musicians? Artists? Mechanics? Excavators? Drycleaners was gonna be my fifth but now not so sure anymore. The problem still boils down to implementation, the professions mentioned that are licensed are *old* (meaning hundreds if not thousands of years). OK - How about Radiology. Radiology is still a subcategory of the Medical Profession... you got the point didn't you? By the way, Radiology dates back to 1895... http://danconia.org
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At 04:52 PM 4/12/2004, DK Smith wrote: Do professional licenses inflate the price of professional services? Considering that corporate executives and politicians don't require licenses? is this one explanation for the high cost of Health Care services? I don't know why that would be. Hopefully it's one factor that keeps incidents of malpractice lower rather than higher. Relevant imo is that short of the courtroom, definition of malpractice in any licensed profession though I'm thinking of medicine now in particular is based on peer review. While all of this does obviously cause much overhead, it may indeed be worth it in implied assurances to the public. After all, just how many bridges have fallen, tunnels and buildings collapsed in our lifetime due to faulty design and construction? Albeit while architects and engineers are licensed, I'm guessing that construction workers and their supervisors for the most part are not. Marty
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Where am I going with this? Down to unemployment to collect your check? -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
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This isnt a licensing issue, this is a comprehension issue. The problem with the IT profession is that there are too many 'competent geeks' and not enough professionals. What a competent geek may be capable of is beyond the scope of the majority of the population. Wrong Computers are for everyone. You have a growth market of some 50 million workers in the US alone. Under what form of magic do you believe that any of the basic allorgithms involved in program design is beyound ANY normal adults grasp? If what your saying is true, your in the wrong field because dependency of such 'rare' guiniess is not enough fuel for an industry to make. It's not guenius which is fuels the digital age, nor is guenus providing pay scales. For that matter, gueniuses can't even guarantee good pay for themselves, forgetting about the other some 50 million individual intellectual giants needed for today. IT industry, like any other profession, depends on skilled educated craftsmen, with fidiciary responsibility. And Licensing these skilled worked is the single fastest means to assuring them fair payment for their skills and oversite of the most important criticle infrastructure in today world. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
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Ruben == Ruben Safir Secretary Nylxs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ruben Computers are for everyone. You have a growth market of some Ruben 50 million workers in the US alone. Under what form of magic Ruben do you believe that any of the basic allorgithms involved in Ruben program design is beyound ANY normal adults grasp? I know *many* adults that will never be able to write a 10-line program in any language. You apparently do not give yourself enough credit for your skill. Abstract reasoning and algorithm design *is* a specialized aptitude. One of the problems the dot-com boom created was a huge artificial demand (which later collapsed) driving a lot of incompetent people into the field chasing the pot of gold that most of them didn't deserve. I believe in the marketplace. Artificial standards bodies will not work overall. Witness the fiasco of the MCSE... it's merely a money-treadmill for testing services (and Microsoft), and guarantees nothing more than a willingness to part with some of your cash, not any kind of actual skill. Teaching to the test has become far too common. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
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Teaching to the test has become far too common. It works for Medical School. I agree the MSFC certs are a waste. Real licensing is not a MS Certificate, and a peer reviewed state wide, or nation-wide exam which is produced by a nation orgaization of professional. First we need to start thinking of ourselves as professional, and organize and act like one. That is step $1. Ruben -- __ Brooklyn Linux Solutions So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://fairuse.nylxs.com http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.inns.net -- Happy Clients http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn 1-718-382-0585
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Not to mention that certain GUI Development Environments eased people into programming. One company I was at had a guy who used to work in HR, they moved him up to a junior java developer (WebSphere with WAS Studio Development Environment). I am not a java person but there are so many classes that do things for you, a person can get pretty far even though they lack the ability of true problem solving and algorithm design. -john On Apr 11, 2004, at 7:15 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Abstract reasoning and algorithm design *is* a specialized aptitude. One of the problems the dot-com boom created was a huge artificial demand (which later collapsed) driving a lot of incompetent people into the field chasing the pot of gold that most of them didn't deserve.
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At 07:32 PM 4/11/2004, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote: Teaching to the test has become far too common. It works for Medical School. I agree the MSFC certs are a waste. Real licensing is not a MS Certificate, and a peer reviewed state wide, or nation-wide exam which is produced by a nation orgaization of professional. I've always felt our work is more like that of an auto mechanic or engineer's. With all due respect to doctors, their intensive training and vast array of knowledge the fact is if a patient dies it's probably presented as because they were too far gone. But if your car is repaired and still doesn't work, or a bridge is built and can't be used - or far worse and thankfully quite uncommon I think - collapsed while in use; that is clear malpractice. The difference is apparently because like mechanics and engineers we work with machines, while doctors and lawyers for that matter work with people, or systems made and managed by people. Oh wait, that's starting to sound like what we do. :) Makes me wonder how those professionals are certified or licensed or whatever, and of what practical value to employers and managers those qualifications really are. cf. http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/social/1999-October/000483.html Marty Landman Face 2 Interface Inc. 845-679-9387 FormATable DB: http://face2interface.com/Products/FormATable.shtml Make a Website: http://face2interface.com/Home/Demo.shtml
