Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
Hello, See http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Applet regarding description and the different logins. You need a JOSM login to use the preferences storing feature. Was the preference storing feature on the OSM server unsuitable, and if so, why? Maybe the OSM server can be amended so that the JOSM applet could store its data there rather than on the JOSM server. I'm not aware the OSM server has a feature to store JOSM preferences. Has it? I doubt it, as for Java applets the hosting server is also the destination, so when JOSM-Servers hosts the Applet it also needs to do the data handling. In case the OSM webservice has such a feature, starting the JOSM applet from www.openstreetmap.org should use the preferences there. But as I have no influence there I can neither check nor fix it. I am, as should be clear by now, quite unhappy about *any* role the JOSM server plays for operating the JOSM editor. Why? Is there a reason to have more trust in the OSM-server infrastructure? I don't see a reason, why the OSM-Webserver should have specific handling for JOSM, when the JOSM webservice can do the same and much better. Please note that an Java applet is an 100% pure online component. It must be based on one server or the other. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
Hi, On 03/03/2011 09:04 AM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: Was the preference storing feature on the OSM server unsuitable, and if so, why? Maybe the OSM server can be amended so that the JOSM applet could store its data there rather than on the JOSM server. I'm not aware the OSM server has a feature to store JOSM preferences. Has it? It has a general key-value storing mechanism that uses the normal API (it's not Java-specific stuff), so if you can access the OSM API, you can also store and access preferences, no matter where your applet was loaded from. It is little used so it is well possible that it doesn't have all the functionality required for something like JOSM. Here's the docs: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Preferences I am, as should be clear by now, quite unhappy about *any* role the JOSM server plays for operating the JOSM editor. Why? Is there a reason to have more trust in the OSM-server infrastructure? Personally I don't view the FOSSGIS servers (one of which is currently the JOSM server) as a production environment on par with the OSM servers. The OSM servers are physically accessible to a skilled admin team; if something breaks, they can easily migrate services to another machine, or get access to the building and fix it. The OSM servers are also the property of OSMF. In contrast, the FOSSGIS servers are loaned to us based on a sponsorship agreement which is not guaranteed to last forever, and if the hardware breaks we're dependent on the provider's staff to fix things. In addition to the insecurity on the hardware side, I am also concerned about the software side because I think that nobody except you actually knows what is going on on the JOSM server, and if you should lose interest, be run over by a bus, or just are too annoyed by my constant nagging, then he have a server on which everyone has come to depend but which cannot be maintained properly by anyone. Ideally, I would want the JOSM server to be the location where you download JOSM, and maybe where tickets are entered, and nothing more. Ideally, I would want us to be able to, at any time, throw away our trac and decide we use another system, or OSM's trac. I also want us to be able to move JOSM hosting to somewhere else, or throw away SVN, or migrate to MediaWiki for the help pages, if at any time it seems reasonable to do so. Every additional kind of interaction of the software with the JOSM server, every extra bit of Python magic takes us further away from such resilience. I would like the JOSM ecosystem to work even if the JOSM server breaks. Please note that an Java applet is an 100% pure online component. It must be based on one server or the other. If we can get it to work properly then I'm sure it can be hosted on osm.org and be added to the Edit drop-down. Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: Was the preference storing feature on the OSM server unsuitable, and if so, why? Maybe the OSM server can be amended so that the JOSM applet could store its data there rather than on the JOSM server. I'm not aware the OSM server has a feature to store JOSM preferences. Has it? It has a general key-value storing mechanism that uses the normal API (it's not Java-specific stuff), so if you can access the OSM API, you can also store and access preferences, no matter where your applet was loaded from. It is little used so it is well possible that it doesn't have all the functionality required for something like JOSM. Here's the docs: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Preferences The Applet uses a GET/POST method to store XML preferences. I don't know who added this (Imi?), but I got it working again. I don't plan to change that again without good reason. Why? Is there a reason to have more trust in the OSM-server infrastructure? Personally I don't view the FOSSGIS servers (one of which is currently the JOSM server) as a production environment on par with the OSM servers. The OSM servers are physically accessible to a skilled admin team; if something breaks, they can easily migrate services to another machine, or get access to the building and fix it. The OSM servers are also the property of OSMF. In contrast, the FOSSGIS servers are loaned to us based on a sponsorship agreement which is not guaranteed to last forever, and if the hardware breaks we're dependent on the provider's staff to fix things. In addition to the Well, actually I prefer the hosted server method. It is much more flexible and the hosting provider has people caring for the hardware. I manage several servers and until now I had more problems with own hardware than with hosting providers. In case we really loose the hardware completely I will find a fast solution to replace it (at least temporary). If you have a look at the backup files from josm, you can see, that they are designed to allow reinstallation on a new system without a lot of effort. The last time I did so (you do remeber I needed to move JOSM server twice?) it worked smoothly and since then I improved the description file. insecurity on the hardware side, I am also concerned about the software side because I think that nobody except you actually knows what is going on on the JOSM server, and if you should lose interest, be run over by a bus, or just are too annoyed by my constant nagging, then he have a server on which everyone has come to depend but which cannot be maintained properly by anyone. I think Sebastian knows how to operate the JOSM servers. He may not know the finer details necessary for bug-fixing and improvements, but this is not necessary for administration. And if necessary he or somebody else surely is able learn the missing parts fast. The situation is much better than at the time when I took over the server and at that time the user interface was much simpler! Additionally you can have a look yourself too if you feel it is necessary. Anyway I doubt the situation is much different for OSM servers. If the central admin fails you will have trouble there as well. And BTW: A bit nagging is nothing compared to other stuff I have to deal with from time to time. Ideally, I would want the JOSM server to be the location where you download JOSM, and maybe where tickets are entered, and nothing more. Ideally, I would want us to be able to, at any time, throw away our trac and decide we use another system, or OSM's trac. I also want us to be able to move JOSM hosting to somewhere else, or throw away SVN, or migrate to MediaWiki for the help pages, if at any time it seems reasonable to do so. Every additional kind of interaction of the software with the JOSM server, every extra bit of Python magic takes us further away from such resilience. I would like the JOSM ecosystem to work even if the JOSM server breaks. Well, you want to turn back time into the time of Web 1.0. Time changed and today people expect more comfort. Most of the additional features the server provides are former user demands: * plugin management * installation file creating * version checks and download management * WMS/TMS source handling * External presets * External styles * online help * online help translation * translatable MOTD * Webstart, download and applet version I also started with the internet in the time, when the Web was not even 1.0 and I understand your feelings when I see to much services getting overloaded with online-functionality. But I also see the need and comfort of online features. It is required to find a balance between online features and the old style, but turning back the wheel of time is not possible as well. I think the development and acceptance of JOSM in the last years proves that my current concept is right. Please note
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: If we can get it to work properly then I'm sure it can be hosted on osm.org and be added to the Edit drop-down. Perfectly fine. But it must work on josm.openstreetmap.org, You mean josm.openstreetmap.de? as this is the place, where JOSM developers have influence. If the OSM-servers provide it as well we can help them, but development will be based on our sphere of influence. What is the difference to PL2? It is developed in openstreetmap.org svn repository and Tom Hughes updates the binary regularly for rails [1]. We should go all the way and even use the same authentication method. I don't know the details, but apparently an OAuth token is automatically issued for Potlatch 2 the first time it is used. Getting rid of 2 layers of authentication and replacing it by default login on openstreetmap.org is a huge usability improvement and in my opinion worth the trouble and loss of control. Sebastian [1] http://git.openstreetmap.org/rails.git/history/e34ce3cb4cb6e3b6a44ccf5027784e6d4e49adb1:/public/potlatch2/potlatch2.swf ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
Hi, On 03/03/2011 01:52 PM, Sebastian Klein wrote: What is the difference to PL2? It is developed in openstreetmap.org svn repository and Tom Hughes updates the binary regularly for rails [1]. We should go all the way and even use the same authentication method. I don't know the details, but apparently an OAuth token is automatically issued for Potlatch 2 the first time it is used. I think it would be cool to have something similar for the JOSM applet, but of course that would mean that whoever checks out the applet to osm.org would have to take some responsibility for it not being a security hole. If the applet mode works well then I'm really looking forward to having the applet directly on osm.org (and I believe the preferences stuff should be easy to sort out). That might even convert some staunch Potlatch users to see the light ;) However we'll probably have to slim down JOSM a bit for that. I can't imagine a 5 MB applet download working well. I think that's at least 5 times the size of the Potlatch SWF plus additional images etc. Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Google Summer of Code
Hi, I have already applied for OSM as a whole. Feel free to apply separately, but keep in mind that you can also exist under the OSM organization if you'd like. The first question is if we actually have some ideas what could be done and who will be a mentor :-) At the moment I don't have an idea what could be an appropriate project suggestion. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
Hello, What is the difference to PL2? It is developed in openstreetmap.org svn repository and Tom Hughes updates the binary regularly for rails [1]. We should go all the way and even use the same authentication method. I don't know the details, but apparently an OAuth token is automatically issued for Potlatch 2 the first time it is used. Well, that does not solve the issue. When you use OAuth with JOSM applet you also need no OSM-login, but you need to login at JOSM server. This is the same for potlatch, where you need to login at Potlatch server. Somewhen you need to login. The question is only whether you login at josm.openstreetmap.de or www.openstreetmap.org. Not such a big difference in my eyes. I think it would be cool to have something similar for the JOSM applet, but of course that would mean that whoever checks out the applet to osm.org would have to take some responsibility for it not being a security hole. Somehow I believe again (this time both of you) don't know JOSM's features. We already can do the server communication with additional authentication. When running on the OSM server, OAuth-request could also be handled automatically, as login is already done. But what we need in any case is an initial login. There is no way around it. If the applet mode works well then I'm really looking forward to having the applet directly on osm.org (and I believe the preferences stuff should be easy to sort out). That might even convert some staunch Potlatch users to see the light ;) Well. As already said we need a working version on JOSM servers. Here is the only place we can have influence. Installing on OSM would be additional benefit. However we'll probably have to slim down JOSM a bit for that. I can't imagine a 5 MB applet download working well. I think that's at least 5 times the size of the Potlatch SWF plus additional images etc. Applets can be splitt simply and have a on-demand data access. But as long as the applet is not tested a lot better there is no need to optimize in this area. And the initial mail was actually done to get exactly this testing. Till now we had lots of discussion, but not a single result. I myself don't use the applet and also will not do in future and without bug reports I cannot improve it. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Google Summer of Code
Hi, this might be a reposity for ideas even for OSM as a whole http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Research/Ideas cya Matthias ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
Hi, On 03/03/11 16:04, Dirk Stöcker wrote: I think it would be cool to have something similar for the JOSM applet, but of course that would mean that whoever checks out the applet to osm.org would have to take some responsibility for it not being a security hole. Somehow I believe again (this time both of you) don't know JOSM's features. We already can do the server communication with additional authentication. When running on the OSM server, OAuth-request could also be handled automatically, as login is already done. But what we need in any case is an initial login. There is no way around it. Of course; as you say, it's the same with Potlatch. What I wanted to say is if you have an official editor embedded at osm.org it needs to pass a different test than some editor you downloaded somewhere (and for osm.org the josm.osm.de site is just somewhere). Once furnished with user credentials or the proper OAuth key, an application could do a lot of stupid things. So at least if I were running osm.org, I would not simply install a .jar file there when someone tells me to - just the same as with Potlatch. Well. As already said we need a working version on JOSM servers. Here is the only place we can have influence. Installing on OSM would be additional benefit. We need a working developer version but not a working user-facing version; not necessarily anyway. If we can have it without pain, why not. Potlatch has both - an instance at api06.dev.openstreetmap org connected to a test instance of the database, and one at geowiki.org connected to the main database. Meanwhile, lots of people have also added Potlatch2 hosting to their web sites (e.g. openpistemap, wanderreitkarte, MapQuest) so you can run a - sometimes customised - P2 instance directly from their sites. Applets can be splitt simply and have a on-demand data access. But as long as the applet is not tested a lot better there is no need to optimize in this area. Agreed. Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
Dirk Stöcker wrote: Hello, What is the difference to PL2? It is developed in openstreetmap.org svn repository and Tom Hughes updates the binary regularly for rails [1]. We should go all the way and even use the same authentication method. I don't know the details, but apparently an OAuth token is automatically issued for Potlatch 2 the first time it is used. Well, that does not solve the issue. When you use OAuth with JOSM applet you also need no OSM-login, but you need to login at JOSM server. This is the same for potlatch, where you need to login at Potlatch server. What are you talking about? You don't have to go to geowiki.com. Put yourself in the place of a user that is very inexperienced: * oh, there is this openstreetmap thing I heard about, let's check it out * go to www.openstreetmap.org and sign up - this is normal, every website has login nowadays * zoom the map, select PL2 from the edit tab list, add some POI, click save, enter changeset command, done! The OAuth thing happens completely behind the scenes, everything works smoothly with a single login. Now, for the josm applet, there are further hurdles: * You have go to another domain. (Understandable if you know the project better, but a little strange for a newcomer.) * You are supposed to enter another login, the JOSM wiki this time. Most users will have to sign up first and wonder why this is required. * In addition (even if you are sill logged in at the osm.org website) you have to enter the osm login again (at least once). (Or use OAuth which is more difficult at the moment.) Somewhen you need to login. The question is only whether you login at josm.openstreetmap.de or www.openstreetmap.org. Not such a big difference in my eyes. I think it would be cool to have something similar for the JOSM applet, but of course that would mean that whoever checks out the applet to osm.org would have to take some responsibility for it not being a security hole. Somehow I believe again (this time both of you) don't know JOSM's features. We already can do the server communication with additional authentication. When running on the OSM server, OAuth-request could also be handled automatically, as login is already done. But what we need in any case is an initial login. There is no way around it. Yes, but the openstreetmap account is needed anyway and you may log in for other reasons, e.g. check the settings or write a diary entry. Why should it be required to sign up and login on yet another site to simply start one of the osm editors? Sebastian ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] How to run applet?
Hi, tried accessing the applet from https://josm.openstreetmap.de/applet with Firefox 3/Sun Java Plugin under Linux. Encountered the following: * Browser freeze while Applet was loading; audio playing in other tab stopped etc. * Untrusted connection blah blah * after authentication, grey applet panel filling the full browser window and nothing more; console said: Exception in thread main netscape.javascript.JSException: Plugin instance for applet ID 6 was already released at sun.plugin2.main.server.LiveConnectSupport.getInfo(LiveConnectSupport.java:405) at sun.plugin2.main.server.LiveConnectSupport.shutdown(LiveConnectSupport.java:41) at sun.plugin2.main.server.JVMInstance.unregisterApplet(JVMInstance.java:1300) at sun.plugin2.main.server.JVMInstance.recycleAppletID(JVMInstance.java:385) at sun.plugin2.main.server.JVMManager.recycleAppletID(JVMManager.java:316) at sun.plugin2.main.server.MozillaPlugin.stopApplet(MozillaPlugin.java:325) at sun.plugin2.main.server.MozillaPlugin.destroy(MozillaPlugin.java:225) Do we have any success stories for the applet with FF3 under Linux? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Sebastian Klein wrote: * You have go to another domain. (Understandable if you know the project better, but a little strange for a newcomer.) * You are supposed to enter another login, the JOSM wiki this time. Most users will have to sign up first and wonder why this is required. * In addition (even if you are sill logged in at the osm.org website) you have to enter the osm login again (at least once). (Or use OAuth which is more difficult at the moment.) Actually a lot of people already do what you say above. They create a login for JOSM and afterwards use the program. So the users are perfectly aware of the fact that JOSM is not OSM. And currently there is no reason to do so! Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] How to run applet?
On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: tried accessing the applet from https://josm.openstreetmap.de/applet with Firefox 3/Sun Java Plugin under Linux. Encountered the following: With http:// it works. For https:// we probably need a better SSL certificate for the server which is strange, as firefox itself accepts the certificates. Java and certificates is a strange topic I don't comletely understand ATM. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Applet
On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: Of course; as you say, it's the same with Potlatch. What I wanted to say is if you have an official editor embedded at osm.org it needs to pass a different test than some editor you downloaded somewhere (and for osm.org the josm.osm.de site is just somewhere). Once furnished with user credentials or the proper OAuth key, an application could do a lot of stupid things. So at least if I were running osm.org, I would not simply install a .jar file there when someone tells me to - just the same as with Potlatch. Actually from the users side I need to trust the software I use, so when I use JOSM, I need to trust it. We need a working developer version but not a working user-facing version; not necessarily anyway. If we can have it without pain, why not. Potlatch has both - an instance at api06.dev.openstreetmap org connected to a test instance of the database, and one at geowiki.org connected to the main database. Meanwhile, lots of people have also added Potlatch2 hosting to their web sites (e.g. openpistemap, wanderreitkarte, MapQuest) so you can run a - sometimes customised - P2 instance directly from their sites. For potlatch a developer version may be necessary. For JOSM a developer applet is useless, as no developer will use it. JOSM is a standalone application which has a applet feature. The past shows us, that the devs don't use the applet. So either we have a user applet under our control or we have no applet again. When other sites already host Potlatch, then where is the big difference to JOSM? Either you need to login on the relevant site or you need to login to OSM. This is the same for JOSM applet. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
