Re: [josm-dev] Validator
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Frederik Ramm wrote: The idea behind this is that users actually fix these issues. When we no longer display them, then they wont get fixed at all. The system has already been tuned a lot, Exactly. This is what the newbie will think as well: The system has been tuned a lot, this editor is used by thousands of mappers every day, so it MUST BE RIGHT and I am responsible for all these bugs! Oh dear! I believe you mix newbie and dumb person here. Newbie does not mean a brainless person, but only one who does not know OSM very well. But he can read dialogs and also understand them. If not, then probably JOSM is not the right tool for him anyway. so that the warnings and errors have few false positives and information level is disabled in default. We're not talking about false positives. We're talking about things that are indeed problems that need to be fixed, but we're showing them to the wrong person - someone who lacks the necessary time or first-hand information to fix them. Then I agree with Pierre, that we probably need additional help (e.g. wiki pages) describing each error and warning and how to fix it. As always help is welcome. The related pages http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Preferences/Validator and http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Dialog/Validator and http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/HowTo/ValidatorExamples and http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/Validate (missing) need a lot of updating. As programmer I say an error is an error and it makes no sense to divide it into my error and your error. Oh yes it does. Because if you have made a change that *causes* a problem, and then a message discourages you from uploading at all, then that's not too bad. But if you make a change that just happens to lead to *unrelated* problems being highlighted, and you then decide to rather not upload your change, then this is a loss for OSM. If a change causes a problem, then the text tells you to upload anyway. And later probably ask someone else to check if it is ok. My father doing much more mapping than myself from time to time gets such requests to verify and/or fix complex situations always helping the people to do it themselves the next time. Problem with errors usually is not the error itself, but the harsh tone in OSM when someone made an error. But this is nothing which software can change. And a beginner getting tons of errors also touched tons of objects which probably is no good idea at all when you don't know what you do... Is it not possible to touch one large object which has e.g. 20 level crossings with other ways and then get 20 warnings just because you added a tag to that one big thing? At least that's what the guy on talk-us claimed. Sure it is. And then for US you google (j)osm crossing ways warning and find a short help how to proceed in the first link. For other languages it is more complicated to find proper help. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Validator
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Pierre Béland wrote: This over verification may become counterproductive since contributors may have the reaction to always ignore validation messages. People tend to ignore warning dialogs in every type of software. JOSM probably is no big exception to this. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Validator
Is it possible to make an option for the validator so that you can choose between validating only touched objects and all objects? Then put it default on only touched objects for new installations so that newbies only see the errors on objects they actually touched. Regards, Maarten ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Validator
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:44 AM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: Is it possible to make an option for the validator so that you can choose between validating only touched objects and all objects? Then put it default on only touched objects for new installations so that newbies only see the errors on objects they actually touched. Like I said, this is already the default behavior on upload. To validate everything you have to actually click the validate button manually. Toby ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Validator
From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl] Subject: Re: [josm-dev] Validator Is it possible to make an option for the validator so that you can choose between validating only touched objects and all objects? Then put it default on only touched objects for new installations so that newbies only see the errors on objects they actually touched. By default on upload it only checks touched objects. This still reports errors that already existed and the user did not create. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Validator
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 12/07/12 08:36, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Pierre Béland wrote: This over verification may become counterproductive since contributors may have the reaction to always ignore validation messages. People tend to ignore warning dialogs in every type of software. JOSM probably is no big exception to this. Exactly. I did fix a lot of errors and warnings on one island of the Acores last week. The errors where all made by newbees with JOSM (pt) and mostly new objects. I do not know if there are big differences between the languages (en,de - pt), but I doubt that this was the reason for unconnected node, doubled nodes, unconnected roads and crossing roads without common node or layer tag. There is definitly room for improvements in layout and links to howto to fix within the dialogue but right know I hope that a user who is confused will rather ask some others for help than simply ignoring the dialogue or throwing away his/her changes. Cheers colliar -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREIAAYFAk/+3uYACgkQalWTFLzqsCsevQCgmG96vGnXV87kIBf086Yx5pqJ S/YAn1TJRxK/zdmOlHUwwDBHPegesSbm =NhaB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] New tested version after API change fix?
Hi, In the process of the license switch, there has been a small change of the OSM API [1]. This causes JOSM to crash in certain situations [2][3]. A fix has been committed (v. 5326), so as a user you might want to update JOSM or at least save often, especially before upload and data update. @team: Do you think we should release an emergency tested version? The fix [5326] might cause a couple of bugs at other places, so in any case no need to rush things. [1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2012-July/025209.html [2] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/rebuild/2012-July/000317.html [3] http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/7847 Paul ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Validator
2012/7/11 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Do you think it would be possible to run the validator after data has been downloaded and record the list of problems, and then when someone uploads, only check for *newly added* problems instead of everything? Of course the validator would still, on request, be able to check everything, but the automatic hey, are you sure you want to upload this check could be reduced to those problems this mapper is really responsible for, rather than listing everything that was wrong even before this mapper touched it. If the user can highlight the validation errors that are directly caused by the local modifications, this is certainly an improvement. But I'm not so sure about the technical implementation. It doesn't seem natural to me to validate the entire dataset on download and keep the errors till some of theses objects are (maybe) uploaded. What if the edits are saved to a .osm file and reloaded later? I'd suggest an alternative: Remember the original version of each primitive; on upload run 2 passes for the validator: one for the (reconstructed) original dataset and one for the modified one. This solution isn't necessarily easier to implement, but it solves other problems as well: Currently, if you add a tag to a large number of objects, and later remove that tag, JOSM still keeps the modified flag for these objects, so they get uploaded and get a version bump, although the properties remain unchanged. In addition it would be useful to display the changes made to an object before upload (e.g. for a large relation; much like svn status). The history GUI could be reused for this. This still requires an extension of the data file format used in JOSM, but I think it's inevitable. There are a couple of other things that need to be saved to file, e.g. object histories and edit conflicts. The plain .osm format can be offered as export option instead. Paul ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
