Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 4:00 PM Richard Welty wrote: > On 11/26/13 4:51 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are > > only rough directions. > > > > Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers > > to process and interpret data. > > > what Martjin is after is improving the situation for routing > engines that use OSM data. in the US at least, highways, > regardless of their actual direction, are assigned cardinal > directions and signage frequently uses those directions. > the premise is that if the cardinal directions are recorded > in an appropriate manner (e.g., as the roles for ways in > a route relation) then they are available for the spoken > directions from a routing widget of some sort. > It seems like, six years on, Martjin's goal is pretty well covered by super-relations at this point, with one relation per direction and that child relation tagged direction=cardinal. Meanwhile what even consumes cardinal directions as roles besides humans attempting to validate relations and maybe brouter (which also supports the superrelations)? I'm not aware of anything that can validate roles as anything other than forward/backward/empty at this point, JOSM included.
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Hi! On 16/12/13 23:59, Martijn van Exel wrote: Can you give me some more guidance for where to look for the classes that would need to be modified? A good starting point might be a search for forward (including marks) in the codebase of JOSM. Cheers, Simon ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Hi Simon and josm-dev (cc my colleague Jonathan) - Looking into building JOSM support for cardinal directions in member roles as discussed before, but the codebase is a bit overwhelming and I don't want to break things. Can you give me some more guidance for where to look for the classes that would need to be modified? Is it only the way reversing and relation ordering code or are there more aspects of JOSM that would need to be considered? Thanks, Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Simon Legner simon.leg...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! On 26/11/13 20:30, Martijn van Exel wrote: I want to reopen that discussion and see if there is support for treating north/south and east/west as first class citizens similar to forward/backward in the relation editor (and perhaps in other parts, perhaps the validator and way direction reversing code?). As far as I understand, there's nothing against better supporting north/south/east/west roles in JOSM. If there's a clear and also computable interpretation of north/south/east/west for the icons in the relation editor, please open a ticket and describe, how that should look like. The same holds for unexpected behaviour of the validator or way direction reversing code. To see how those icons in the relation editor are determined at the moment, you could refer to the class http://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/josm/trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/josm/gui/dialogs/relation/sort/WayConnectionTypeCalculator.java Cheers, Simon (simon04) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Still feeling that cardinal directions only belong as roles in for child relations in super-relations. On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. There was some discussion in the original relation editor enhancement ticket: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5109#comment:42 where Petr_Dlouhy dismisses support for these member roles. I want to reopen that discussion and see if there is support for treating north/south and east/west as first class citizens similar to forward/backward in the relation editor (and perhaps in other parts, perhaps the validator and way direction reversing code?). I am crossposting to talk-us because this discussion is going on there at the moment. I would be more than happy to put in some of the work required to implement this support. Thanks, Martijn -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Hi Florian, It's more like a designation than a destination, so I think the destination tag would not be very appropriate for this. An Interstate has a cardinal direction, and when giving directions you would say for example 'enter Interstate 80 west'. On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:46:47PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. I still dont get it - Which relation would need this as a role? If this is a signposted destination i would expect it in the destination or destination:lane tag on the road as west e.g. destination:lanes=West;Los Angeles|East;Boston For example Mapfactor Navigator will use this to show destinations. backward/forward as role are in relation to the ways direction. A tag can either have a meaning in forward or backward or both directions on a way. There is no way a tag has a meaning in 56° left of the way. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQIVAwUBUpWbWZDdQSDLCfIvAQhY8w/9FskAH+at4ET9dCpGAxZ6pIAfRUre9LmV q95AMRW+s83yMrm4ztIDAxsvpc/VaMagly+b6XnoLFFkv7x6KH546Babw/RphFbw uspFpY+JSkEbY2BGmz4DAH7jAhmYWPDpLvoHXf9oCMUWoWUONygMqppXFdGgkBbL 4/YZSmKleIbVhoCtQsfzCDhHCsvV2NaM9JjCUClGAMgZF2TNmqY7jhEiqA8AQxNV 5skaECB08Ay/3kO22+T6Zk6mV3uTYIq7v+nbG++MCeS0XcHz1AHrTvXo5bYtIKRU qBDXkhvlLtrSICW1W4ML6+jWSv8s4d1Rvkx5GesAIB9+o6GAE2NMpcZCopl6pe9F GrXLk+rAqUMMVLEBp6rV4zq2cpaQ3ZUwLKaSmS9hWbfijpxT2hKLYcXLeYOVm0GC EEtRxziPQPM4J1a2g1SMqEwPL40XFnj/O21hCzNAMoRMyRwRwkHB8p+WxssP8tAu YpzJuWosMX3ZVdDehVb4PSqSNSUH2KXk6uS7vQzIPNQp52s1gCl9HplzC9pUqbQ3 BAOKmPmoJJVMSziNRMhAnnHT7NwxgQg3dDDC8QXkZ58h8n6WCBTcSLgMhW7Ctd3f 7SJ3Zbp6BQHU4oV/bN6MSh/JsQshuvosnPzsDvaBxYChQjmRuxfSmPMDmgtRC91z fbRRKUaWVIo= =51kM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Dirk, Yes, point taken. My original question was just about that issue - whether there would be support for implementing that on t a technical level. As it turns out there is much more need to clarify this on a conceptual level first. I will revisit the topic once we reach some clarity around the issue. Martijn On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Dirk Stöcker openstreet...@dstoecker.de wrote: Hello, this is JOSM development list. Discuss the pro and contra of tagging elsewhere. Here only software development related issues are discussed. If north/south,east/west is aused in the US I agree that we should support it on a technical level if a proper specification is available and useful and someone implements it. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On 23:12 2013-11-26, Florian Lohoff wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:46:47PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. I still dont get it - Which relation would need this as a role? If this is a signposted destination i would expect it in the destination or destination:lane tag on the road as west e.g. destination:lanes=West;Los Angeles|East;Boston For example Mapfactor Navigator will use this to show destinations. backward/forward as role are in relation to the ways direction. A tag can either have a meaning in forward or backward or both directions on a way. There is no way a tag has a meaning in 56° left of the way. What should destination:lanes be for either exit in this photo? http://www.interstate-guide.com/images074/i-074_et_09.jpg The sign for exit 3 could be read Hopple Street, eastbound Route 52, southbound Route 27, or southbound Route 127. The cardinal directions here are not destinations but rather part of the name of the side of the route. Exit 4 leads to a carriageway that is simultaneously westbound I-74, westbound US 52, and northbound US 27. Some of us would like to relate it to an I-74 relation with the role west and so on. -- m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On 2013-11-27 11:58, Minh Nguyen wrote: On 23:12 2013-11-26, Florian Lohoff wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:46:47PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. I still dont get it - Which relation would need this as a role? If this is a signposted destination i would expect it in the destination or destination:lane tag on the road as west e.g. destination:lanes=West;Los Angeles|East;Boston For example Mapfactor Navigator will use this to show destinations. backward/forward as role are in relation to the ways direction. A tag can either have a meaning in forward or backward or both directions on a way. There is no way a tag has a meaning in 56° left of the way. What should destination:lanes be for either exit in this photo? http://www.interstate-guide.com/images074/i-074_et_09.jpg The sign for exit 3 could be read Hopple Street, eastbound Route 52, southbound Route 27, or southbound Route 127. The cardinal directions here are not destinations but rather part of the name of the side of the route. Exit 4 leads to a carriageway that is simultaneously westbound I-74, westbound US 52, and northbound US 27. Some of us would like to relate it to an I-74 relation with the role west and so on. Where would you want to put this in? In the relation for the I-74? This exit should not be part of the relation for the I-74. As Florian said: this needs to be put in destination tags on the way. At this point there are problaby two ways, one for the through road (which I believe is I-75?) and one for the exit. The through road has destination:lanes=South;Downtown;I-75|South;East;Hopple St;27;127;52 and the exit has destination:lanes=West;North;Indianapolis;I-74;52;27 I agree with Florian. I do not see the need for north/south/west/east roles in a relation for this. Regards, Maarten ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Richard Welty wrote: what Martjin is after is improving the situation for routing engines that use OSM data. in the US at least, highways, regardless of their actual direction, are assigned cardinal directions and signage frequently uses those directions. the premise is that if the cardinal directions are recorded in an appropriate manner (e.g., as the roles for ways in a route relation) then they are available for the spoken directions from a routing widget of some sort. But surely the role of a way within a relation is a different thing entirely to the cardinal direction of a relation? For example, imagine I'm near 2 ways that are both part of the I-80[1]. For simplicity let's assume that the way that I would take to get to eastbound destinations actually goes in an eastbound direction at my location. If it's important to recognise that there are two signed I-80 routes, one eastbound and one westbound, shouldn't there actually be two I-80 relations? The eastboundness is really a property of the route, rather than the individual way. Now imagine a situation where an imaginary I-80 ran along a non-divided road for a while. There'd only be one way, and it'd be part of both relations. With normal OSM tagging, the way might have a forward role within the eastbound relation and a backward role within the westbound relation. The US-style west or east tagging fails here because the way would need to have both west and east roles. Also, perhaps a list other than josm-dev might be a better forum for discussing how best to map route relations? Cheers, Andy [1] Example of how a bit of the I-80 is mapped now, for info: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/10473201 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/30411369 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Hello, this is JOSM development list. Discuss the pro and contra of tagging elsewhere. Here only software development related issues are discussed. If north/south,east/west is aused in the US I agree that we should support it on a technical level if a proper specification is available and useful and someone implements it. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:57:40PM -0600, Ian Dees wrote: No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 So - North would be straight on, east would be left, west would be right in 99% of the other countries? Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
From: Florian Lohoff [mailto:f...@zz.de] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:57:40PM -0600, Ian Dees wrote: No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 So - North would be straight on, east would be left, west would be right in 99% of the other countries? You'd have to ask someone with those other countries. That particular way is part of the I-94 with role west, and you'd tell someone to get on the I-94 west, even if they're physically driving north. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Paul Norman wrote: No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, ... in the sense that if you carried on for long enough you'd eventually end of west of where you started ... but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 So - North would be straight on, east would be left, west would be right in 99% of the other countries? You'd have to ask someone with those other countries. That particular way is part of the I-94 with role west, and you'd tell someone to get on the I-94 west, even if they're physically driving north. One other place where I've seen bits of roads routinely described and signed as West etc. is the A10 around Amsterdam: http://www.wegenwiki.nl/A10_%28Nederland%29#Westring Here West means the part that is west of the city, so (if you're coming from the north) the part that is actually going south. Cheers, Andy ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is east-west, but runs almost north-south locally (for example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/203317481) but the sign would still say 'I-80 East' (or West as the case may be). So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. Hope this clarifies somewhat! Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. I would be very careful in using this. Is this really south e.g. 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are only rough directions. Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers to process and interpret data. No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Good point Andy. We would need to clarify the cardinal direction member roles on the wiki for specific regions more. I created a stub of a wiki page that describes proposed (and followed) practice in the U.S: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Directions_In_The_United_States - this page is currently a little messy as we're still debating some of the intricacies. Feel free to help work on it, perhaps we can work up an international page from this. Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:42 PM, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote: Paul Norman wrote: No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, ... in the sense that if you carried on for long enough you'd eventually end of west of where you started ... but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 So - North would be straight on, east would be left, west would be right in 99% of the other countries? You'd have to ask someone with those other countries. That particular way is part of the I-94 with role west, and you'd tell someone to get on the I-94 west, even if they're physically driving north. One other place where I've seen bits of roads routinely described and signed as West etc. is the A10 around Amsterdam: http://www.wegenwiki.nl/A10_%28Nederland%29#Westring Here West means the part that is west of the city, so (if you're coming from the north) the part that is actually going south. Cheers, Andy ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:46:47PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. I still dont get it - Which relation would need this as a role? If this is a signposted destination i would expect it in the destination or destination:lane tag on the road as west e.g. destination:lanes=West;Los Angeles|East;Boston For example Mapfactor Navigator will use this to show destinations. backward/forward as role are in relation to the ways direction. A tag can either have a meaning in forward or backward or both directions on a way. There is no way a tag has a meaning in 56° left of the way. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
