Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
From: Shawn sgro...@open2space.com Karl said it best - we can't please everyone. Unless someone were to sit down and write a tool to integrate/synch a forum (Zoho in particular And he is right. Unfortunately the ones that will be unpleased and will have even more accessibility issues as before are exactly some people with disabilities that already have many enough issues using a computer. Octavian
Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
But each time you want to post a new message, you will need to go to the forum, login, and then try to sent the message, which I don't even know how accessible it is, because friendly it is not for sure. While for sending an email I just need to press Control+N in OE and I can start typing the message. So the forum is definitely much less accessible and friendly. Octavian - Original Message - From: John Arrowwood jarro...@gmail.com To: jquery-en@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums Silly thought: What if the forums were 'published' to the mailing list, and the mailing list were made read-only? That is, every time a post is published on the forum, it is automatically sent to the mailing list. Then, in the footer of the message is a link to reply to the post, which when clicked takes you to the forum in such a way that the user can immediately reply to that post. The mailing list could be set up so that nobody except the forum 'bot' could post to it, which would make spam go away. People that have accessibility issues or just prefer to get their information via their email client could continue to read things that way. And you would have all of the benefits of the forum. Best of both worlds. Make everybody happy. I know it would make me happier. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.comwrote: From: MorningZ morni...@gmail.com Besides, as Richard pointed out, the mailing list right here will still exist, it just won't be moderated/managed by the people it was before.. That would be good, because at least for a period there would still be an accessible source of information for JQuery. Octavian -- John Arrowwood John (at) Irie (dash) Inc (dot) com John (at) Arrowwood Photography (dot) com John (at) Hanlons Razor (dot) com -- http://www.irie-inc.com/ http://arrowwood.blogspot.com/
[jQuery] Re: New Forums
To add to Richard's list * Ability to post code without having Google Groups code f_ck it up* I'm not sure why people are voting and all that, it's done, it's decided, it's time to get with the program Besides, as Richard pointed out, the mailing list right here will still exist, it just won't be moderated/managed by the people it was before.. and Karl put it best: they can't please everyone. there's a LOT of topics from over the past two years on this very mailing list crying out for a forum instead of the mailing list. Damned if you do damned if you don't On Jan 22, 11:31 am, Richard D. Worth rdwo...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.comwrote: From: Karl Swedberg k...@englishrules.com On Jan 21, 2010, at 8:11 PM, brian wrote: FWIW, I'm pretty sure the decision to drop Google Groups is due to John Ressig's account being spoofed by spammers. No, that's not it. Okay, maybe it was one of the last straws, but we've been talking about moving to a forum for a couple years now. If you want to know what factors were involved in the decision, please read http://jquery14.com/day-07/new-jquery-forum/ I read that: Additionally, we wanted something that lowered the barrier to asking a question - something that anyone would be able to use Well, for some categories of users, the movement to a forum has done exactly the reverse, because a forum is much less accessible than a mailing list for screen reader users for example, but for other categories of users also. For example, if a user uses a good mail client, he or she could configure it so all the messages from the list to go to a specific folder, the messages that contain some words in the subjects or in the body to go to another special folder as they arrive, the messages are automaticly grouped by conversation, and they can easier be all saved locally or all deleted (or individually). And if a user has a good rss reader they can do the same with a forum. Also, using rss2email services, they could have the best of both worlds. The best solution from the perspective of the users would be to have a mailing list system that can also offer and present the messages on the web, but this would involve more work for JQuery developers, and it seems that this idea is the best, but there is nobody willing to help doing and administering it. So the JQuery developers have chosen to use a forum which is administered by somebody else. That's very OK, but I think at least the JQuery mailing lists should not be disabled, while there still are users that prefer using them. I don't know that they will be disabled, but if not they will be completely unmoderated. This means way more spam than before. In addition, many active contributors, including jQuery team members, have moved over to the forum, so there will be a lot less traffic on the mailing lists. People may still find help and answers, but it won't be the official forum. Just as before when the mailing list was the official forum, people found answers elsewhere. To be honest, I've never been a fan of forums, either. But after spending some time in the jQuery forum, I'm starting to appreciate its advantages over a plain mailing list. Can you please tell us which are those advantages? (in general, not only regarding JQuery forum.) *Tags* I tag and filter emails, and it's been really nice. But it's always bothered me that all the tagging and filtering I do has to be duplicated by everyone else consuming the same content. Using tags on the website forum, all this metadata can be shared. *Types* On the forum, there are 5 type of threads: Discussions, Questions, Ideas, Problems, and Announcements. These can be selected by the OP and corrected be a moderator, and searched and filtered on. Another piece of shared metadata. *Categories* Before we had 5 or 6 mailing lists for different sub-topics. Many times a day as a moderator, I would have to kindly ask someone to move a discussion to the correct forum, to keep noise down, to keep the list on-topic, and to ensure people saw the question and the answer in the right place, whether via email or web archive. This was not only a real pain, but it's not that much fun for anyone involved, especially new users that may not have a clue that there's more than one list, or which list to post to: jquery-en, jquery-dev, jquery-ui, jquery-ui-dev, jquery-a11y, etc. On the new website forum, not only is it easier to see which top-level forum topics are available for posting, but if something is posted in the wrong forum, a moderator can simply select 'Move this topic' and then select the correct sub-forum. That immediately reflects in any sorting, filtering, or categorization anyone does. Another piece of shared metadata. *Status* In addition to being able to tag, type, and categorize each thread,
Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
From: MorningZ morni...@gmail.com Besides, as Richard pointed out, the mailing list right here will still exist, it just won't be moderated/managed by the people it was before.. That would be good, because at least for a period there would still be an accessible source of information for JQuery. Octavian
Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
Silly thought: What if the forums were 'published' to the mailing list, and the mailing list were made read-only? That is, every time a post is published on the forum, it is automatically sent to the mailing list. Then, in the footer of the message is a link to reply to the post, which when clicked takes you to the forum in such a way that the user can immediately reply to that post. The mailing list could be set up so that nobody except the forum 'bot' could post to it, which would make spam go away. People that have accessibility issues or just prefer to get their information via their email client could continue to read things that way. And you would have all of the benefits of the forum. Best of both worlds. Make everybody happy. I know it would make me happier. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.comwrote: From: MorningZ morni...@gmail.com Besides, as Richard pointed out, the mailing list right here will still exist, it just won't be moderated/managed by the people it was before.. That would be good, because at least for a period there would still be an accessible source of information for JQuery. Octavian -- John Arrowwood John (at) Irie (dash) Inc (dot) com John (at) Arrowwood Photography (dot) com John (at) Hanlons Razor (dot) com -- http://www.irie-inc.com/ http://arrowwood.blogspot.com/
Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 3:13 PM, John Arrowwood jarro...@gmail.com wrote: What if the forums were 'published' to the mailing list, and the mailing ... The mailing list could be set up so that nobody except the forum 'bot' could post to it, which would make spam go away. People that have accessibility issues or just prefer to get their information via their email client could continue to read things that way. And you would have all of the benefits of the forum. Oo! Man with a plan.
Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
Do not close the email list Do not close the email list Do not close the email list Do not close the email list Do not close the email list - Original Message - From: Nathan Klatt n8kl...@gmail.com To: jquery-en@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 3:13 PM, John Arrowwood jarro...@gmail.com wrote: What if the forums were 'published' to the mailing list, and the mailing ... The mailing list could be set up so that nobody except the forum 'bot' could post to it, which would make spam go away. People that have accessibility issues or just prefer to get their information via their email client could continue to read things that way. And you would have all of the benefits of the forum. Oo! Man with a plan.
Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
And if you were using a screen reader, and had need to post a question to the mailing list? Then you'd still need to deal with the web page/forums. Your solution is a good step in the right direction, but does not solve the problems. I've looked into integrating a forum and mailing list in the past. Unless something has changed in the past couple of years, there is no good solution. What is needed is a way to keep a mailing list and forum in sync. Messages sent to the mailing list are automagically posted in the forums, with the conversation threads being maintained. Messages posted to the forums are automagically posted to the mailing list. The closest I've ever seen for this is the forums where you can elect to receive an email if a watched topic is posted to. Or if someone replies to you or a topic that you had previously replied to. While this is somewhat workable, it still looses all the benefits of an email list - you still have to go to the web page to view/respond to messages. And visiting the web page is not part of the normal routine for a number of people. Karl said it best - we can't please everyone. Unless someone were to sit down and write a tool to integrate/synch a forum (Zoho in particular in this case) and the mailing list (Google Groups in this case). I don't forsee that happening anytime soon. My thoughts. Shawn John Arrowwood wrote: Silly thought: What if the forums were 'published' to the mailing list, and the mailing list were made read-only? That is, every time a post is published on the forum, it is automatically sent to the mailing list. Then, in the footer of the message is a link to reply to the post, which when clicked takes you to the forum in such a way that the user can immediately reply to that post. The mailing list could be set up so that nobody except the forum 'bot' could post to it, which would make spam go away. People that have accessibility issues or just prefer to get their information via their email client could continue to read things that way. And you would have all of the benefits of the forum. Best of both worlds. Make everybody happy. I know it would make me happier. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.com mailto:orasn...@gmail.com wrote: From: MorningZ morni...@gmail.com mailto:morni...@gmail.com Besides, as Richard pointed out, the mailing list right here will still exist, it just won't be moderated/managed by the people it was before.. That would be good, because at least for a period there would still be an accessible source of information for JQuery. Octavian -- John Arrowwood John (at) Irie (dash) Inc (dot) com John (at) Arrowwood Photography (dot) com John (at) Hanlons Razor (dot) com -- http://www.irie-inc.com/ http://arrowwood.blogspot.com/
[jQuery] Re: New Forums
On Jan 22, 4:13 pm, John Arrowwood jarro...@gmail.com wrote: Silly thought: What if the forums were 'published' to the mailing list, and the mailing list were made read-only? That is, every time a post is published on the forum, it is automatically sent to the mailing list. Then, in the footer of the message is a link to reply to the post, which when clicked takes you to the forum in such a way that the user can immediately reply to that post. I hate to point out the obvious, but isn't this is what an RSS feed accomplishes?... want an email instead of an RSS reader? http://www.feedblitz.com/f/f.fbz?RSSHome Guys, all you need to do is read this post http://jquery14.com/day-07 Reading that post above, it's dead obvious that the change is made, it's done... there isn't one ounce of indication in that post whatsoever that the mailing list even has the slightest of chances of being the primary source of official jQuery help, and judging by the huge text banner at the top of this list, won't even be a minor source of official help. Also taking into account that moving to a forum was announced as the plan at September's jQuery Conference, meaning it was -thought about- long before that I personally like the mailing list, and don't enjoy the Zoho forum in it's current state (forgets login info despite asking to remember and fixed width is so 2000), ... i've been active here for going on two years, and it's been a great source of getting help as well as doing my best to provide help... but its time to see that the Forum decision is made for better or worse I'll still spend some time and post on both as long as this mailing list has traffic (and hasn't been over ridden with spam), as it's only one quick bookmark away but we're in the minority, and we had no say. I'm not trying to be harsh or rude or anything the like, just trying to point out the obvious :-( No matter where help is to be had... here, the forums, stackoverflow, the IRC channel, this is still a fantastic library and it makes web programmer's lives easier day in and day out. who cares what is official and what isn't. no matter what the solution, there's no way on God's green earth that it is going to satisfy everyone. they've done what is best for them in the the interest of moving forward, and Google Groups does have it's issues, Zoho was the solution made. /off soapbox have a good/safe weekend - Steve
[jQuery] Re: new forums used?
well, for starters the fact that Google does not accept my emails to the list, een though I'm subscribed, so for some reason it forces me to go to groups.google.com to submit any messages I'd like to submit, which to be honest has limited my contribution on the list to just some questions helping me, and noty contributing to solutions to other people's problems. Secondly - I prefer not to have too many email arriving; I prefer the pull mechanism where I decide to go read on the forum; I always have the feeling that mailing lists just push you with the info. And thirdly - the new forums look great :D Either way - from what I've read the list IS gonna disappear and IS gonna be replaced by the new forum; just not clear to me whether we're supposed to write here, or use the new forums now... Thanks! David. On 18 jan, 16:03, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote: Hi, David... What do you find more appealing about forums than an email list? Rick -Original Message- From: jquery-en@googlegroups.com [mailto:jquery...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of speedpac...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:50 AM To: jQuery (English) Subject: [jQuery] new forums used? Hi there, I just noticed this group is still having lots of activity. I for one am very pleased to see we're moving to actual forum on forum.jquery.com, but it appears that moderation isn't done there yet (or I'm just too impatient...) Are we supposed to continue posting here, or was my first idea right to start using the new forum? Thanks so much for a fantastic library, great support, and a marvellous spirit :) David.
[jQuery] Re: new forums used?
As long as your questions/issues continue to get answered, it shouldn't matter where you post as there's plenty of people on one or the other..or both :-) At some point perhaps this mailing list will just get turned off, but there should, and appears to be, a transition period where both are active On Jan 18, 10:28 am, speedpac...@gmail.com speedpac...@gmail.com wrote: well, for starters the fact that Google does not accept my emails to the list, een though I'm subscribed, so for some reason it forces me to go to groups.google.com to submit any messages I'd like to submit, which to be honest has limited my contribution on the list to just some questions helping me, and noty contributing to solutions to other people's problems. Secondly - I prefer not to have too many email arriving; I prefer the pull mechanism where I decide to go read on the forum; I always have the feeling that mailing lists just push you with the info. And thirdly - the new forums look great :D Either way - from what I've read the list IS gonna disappear and IS gonna be replaced by the new forum; just not clear to me whether we're supposed to write here, or use the new forums now... Thanks! David. On 18 jan, 16:03, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote: Hi, David... What do you find more appealing about forums than an email list? Rick -Original Message- From: jquery-en@googlegroups.com [mailto:jquery...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of speedpac...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:50 AM To: jQuery (English) Subject: [jQuery] new forums used? Hi there, I just noticed this group is still having lots of activity. I for one am very pleased to see we're moving to actual forum on forum.jquery.com, but it appears that moderation isn't done there yet (or I'm just too impatient...) Are we supposed to continue posting here, or was my first idea right to start using the new forum? Thanks so much for a fantastic library, great support, and a marvellous spirit :) David.
