Re: [jug-discussion] Groovy and JRuby (was Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting)
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:14 PM, William H. Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I've mentioned before, I liked Groovy from a distance but I found it to be frustrating to use. My experience with Ruby was the opposite -- blah at first, but I quickly came to love it. Thanks William. I was waiting for someone who agreed with me to chime in before I responded on the thread. I've been using Ruby full-time, professionally for over two years now, and a hobbyist for a while before that. I used Java for several years before that, some of them with Scott and crew. To sum it up, Ruby makes me happy. I enjoy programming Ruby more than any other language. Many other people who work with Ruby say the same thing. This is not surprising, because Matz had this goal in mind when he created Ruby. Here's some quotes from him: Does the world need another language? In theory, no. We just need the Turing machine to solve all of our problems, in theory. Humans require more sophisticated tools to program. It's a matter of human need. As long as some people feel happy using Ruby, that's enough of a reason for another language for me. [1] For me the purpose of life is partly to have joy. Programmers often feel joy when they can concentrate on the creative side of programming, So Ruby is designed to make programmers happy. [2] So, philosophy is fine, but lets see some code to prove this example. Here's an example. Say I'm on a plane, and I am playing with (J)Ruby and Groovy to compare them (which I was). No interenets or reference books, just the interactive interpreters. The challenge is show me all the operations you can perform on an Array. Here's how you do it in (J)Ruby: chadmac:~ woolley$ jruby --command irb irb [].class = Array irb [].methods = [frozen?, sort, ...] irb [].methods.sort = [, *, +, -, , =, ==, ===, =~, ...] # almost, but still has the methods from Object irb [].methods.sort - Object.methods = [, *, +, -, , [], []=, all?, any?, ...] # Ah, just the methods from Array This is a beautiful experience which follows the Principle Of Least Surprise. For example: * Everything just prints out through the magic of duck typing, no class cast exceptions * [] IS an instance of an array * If I want the class or methods of this Array instance, I just ask it * If I want to sort the resulting array, I just call #sort * The - (subtract) operator does the logical thing, which is subtract the elements of one array from another. So, [].methods.sort - Object.methods gives me just the methods for Arrays Now, I tried to do this same thing in Groovy (with groovysh), and I failed frustratingly and miserably. I could get to the point of println'ing the methods of an Array (which is really an ArrayList in lipstick), but could see no way to do the nifty array subtraction to get rid of Object's methods. Not to mention the numerous exceptions when groovysh evaluates something that is not a string, and I have to println to get anything shown. Overall, confusion and NOT happiness. As a challenge, why don't the Groovy fans attempt this same thing and post it? I'll wager you write a lot more (ugly) code, and as William says, this is because Groovy is just too close to Java. Now for the unsubstantiated uninformed rant (couldn't get by without one of those): As for Grails, why use a substandard Rails clone built on a substandard Ruby clone? Check out Merb, that's the latest shiznit in Web Frameworks, and it is pretty sweet: http://merbivore.com/ It is similar to Rails, except they are doing all the things right that Rails does wrong. And for the ORM fans, check out DataMapper from the same crew: http://datamapper.org/ Sorry I'll miss the meeting, but I'll make it to another one soon to wax pedantic and give you Java guys grief ;) -- Chad [1] http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2001/11/29/ruby.html [2] http://www.artima.com/intv/rubyP.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting
I wish I could go, but on Monday I?returned to Lyon, France, where I will be working for the next four months. Christopher -Original Message- From: Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:58 pm Subject: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting In preparation for the upcoming No Fluff Just Stuff Jay Zimmerman has graciously offered us a speaker, Brian Sam-Bodden. He has volunteered to speak on either Groovy Metaprogramming talk or JRuby DSLs for Java APIs.? ? I thought I would do an informal poll and see who was interested in either one of these.? ? Doing a quick survey around the office here we have:? Warner - Groovy? TR - Groovy? Bashar - Groovy? Scott - Groovy (or both :-)? Steve - Both :-)? ? But this is just a sampling from those immediately around me, and I do want to hear from the rest of you what you would like to hear more about.? ? -warner? ? Warner Onstine - Programmer/Author? New book on Tapestry 4!? Tapestry 101 available at http://sourcebeat.com/books/tapestrylive.html? [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://warneronstine.com/blog? ? ? -? To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?
Re: [jug-discussion] Groovy and JRuby (was Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting)
- Original Message From: Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 4:36:52 PM Subject: [jug-discussion] Groovy and JRuby (was Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting) On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Andrew Lenards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Groovy please. What are your (collective) reasons for being more interested in Groovy than JRuby? Just interested... -- Chad Grails. Bashar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Groovy and JRuby (was Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting)
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What are your (collective) reasons for being more interested in Groovy than JRuby? Just interested... The ruby switch hasn't clicked for me yet. I feel the same way about ruby as I do smalltalk, I know they're both virtuous languages - though I don't feel comfortable in either. I'm able to be more productive with less effort in groovy.
Re: [jug-discussion] Groovy and JRuby (was Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting)
I vote for the JRuby DSLs presentation. I attended a couple of Brian's Hibernate presentations at NFJS last summer. He's an excellent speaker, BTW. As I've mentioned before, I liked Groovy from a distance but I found it to be frustrating to use. My experience with Ruby was the opposite -- blah at first, but I quickly came to love it. I think Groovy's greatest strength and weakness is it's closeness to Java. My prediction is that in five years (ten years, too) Ruby will still be far more popular than Groovy, but maybe something else will overrun both. (I'll take lunch bets on Ruby vs. Groovy at the next JUG meeting! :)) Re getting together for a group discount for NFJS in Phoenix, count me in. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Groovy and JRuby (was Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting)
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:14 PM, William H. Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Re getting together for a group discount for NFJS in Phoenix, count me in. I'm about, say, 70% committed to going this year. I really enjoyed it last year, so if we could get the price down from the early-bird special - I'd be 100% committed.
[jug-discussion] next month's meeting
In preparation for the upcoming No Fluff Just Stuff Jay Zimmerman has graciously offered us a speaker, Brian Sam-Bodden. He has volunteered to speak on either Groovy Metaprogramming talk or JRuby DSLs for Java APIs. I thought I would do an informal poll and see who was interested in either one of these. Doing a quick survey around the office here we have: Warner - Groovy TR - Groovy Bashar - Groovy Scott - Groovy (or both :-) Steve - Both :-) But this is just a sampling from those immediately around me, and I do want to hear from the rest of you what you would like to hear more about. -warner Warner Onstine - Programmer/Author New book on Tapestry 4! Tapestry 101 available at http://sourcebeat.com/books/tapestrylive.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://warneronstine.com/blog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting
Groovy please. -t At 01:58 PM 6/5/2008, you wrote: In preparation for the upcoming No Fluff Just Stuff Jay Zimmerman has graciously offered us a speaker, Brian Sam-Bodden. He has volunteered to speak on either Groovy Metaprogramming talk or JRuby DSLs for Java APIs. I thought I would do an informal poll and see who was interested in either one of these. Doing a quick survey around the office here we have: Warner - Groovy TR - Groovy Bashar - Groovy Scott - Groovy (or both :-) Steve - Both :-) But this is just a sampling from those immediately around me, and I do want to hear from the rest of you what you would like to hear more about. -warner
Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In preparation for the upcoming No Fluff Just Stuff Jay Zimmerman has graciously offered us a speaker, Brian Sam-Bodden. He has volunteered to speak on either Groovy Metaprogramming talk or JRuby DSLs for Java APIs. I thought I would do an informal poll and see who was interested in either one of these. I'd vote for JRuby if I were going to be there. But I'm not :( -- Chad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting
Groovy please. On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Thomas Hicks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Groovy please. -t At 01:58 PM 6/5/2008, you wrote: In preparation for the upcoming No Fluff Just Stuff Jay Zimmerman has graciously offered us a speaker, Brian Sam-Bodden. He has volunteered to speak on either Groovy Metaprogramming talk or JRuby DSLs for Java APIs. I thought I would do an informal poll and see who was interested in either one of these. Doing a quick survey around the office here we have: Warner - Groovy TR - Groovy Bashar - Groovy Scott - Groovy (or both :-) Steve - Both :-) But this is just a sampling from those immediately around me, and I do want to hear from the rest of you what you would like to hear more about. -warner
Re: [jug-discussion] Groovy and JRuby (was Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting)
At 04:36 PM 6/5/2008, you wrote: On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Andrew Lenards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Groovy please. What are your (collective) reasons for being more interested in Groovy than JRuby? Haven't we had this discussion before? Just interested... rabble-rouser. :) -tom p.s. IMHO, Groovy is Java done right.
Re: [jug-discussion] next month's meeting
Groovy, thx. On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In preparation for the upcoming No Fluff Just Stuff Jay Zimmerman has graciously offered us a speaker, Brian Sam-Bodden. He has volunteered to speak on either Groovy Metaprogramming talk or JRuby DSLs for Java APIs. I thought I would do an informal poll and see who was interested in either one of these. Doing a quick survey around the office here we have: Warner - Groovy TR - Groovy Bashar - Groovy Scott - Groovy (or both :-) Steve - Both :-) But this is just a sampling from those immediately around me, and I do want to hear from the rest of you what you would like to hear more about. -warner Warner Onstine - Programmer/Author New book on Tapestry 4! Tapestry 101 available at http://sourcebeat.com/books/tapestrylive.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://warneronstine.com/blog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
