[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #40 from Forest --- Max wrote: > People who thumbed down probably are not satisfied for the same reason this > bug report was created — not having an option toggle in settings. Good point. I had updated the title to "place sidebar on the right in most cases", to reflect the config option's removal as requested by Nate. It's possible that those drive-by downvotes were reactions to the lack of choice. I wish they had used words to express themselves instead of mysteriously dumping on my work as a whole. > I believe that adding an option is the only way to make everyone happy. It is starting to look that way, isn't it? Nate already rejected that idea from me twice, so I'm not going to push him on it, but Noah (another KDE developer) recently chimed in agreeing with you. Perhaps adding your voice in support of it over there would help show that a user-facing option really is appropriate here? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 witchhunter changed: What|Removed |Added CC||witchhunterpro@protonmail.c ||om -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #39 from flan_suse --- I sent a request over Phabricator. Hopefully it gets resolved. I'll vote for your merge request as soon as I am able to login again. :) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #38 from flan_suse --- (In reply to Forest from comment #36) > If that's true, I think you would have to create a new account. I have a working KDE Identity account. When I click to register a new account (for their KDE Invent GitLab), it takes me to the KDE Identity page... of which I'm already logged in with my active account. Trying to login to KDE Invent, regardless, gives me the error message: "Your account has been blocked. Please contact your GitLab administrator if you think this is an error." I have a separate GitLab account, with the same email, that works for gitlab.com. I can even login to KDE Identity with no problems. So this appears to be specific to "KDE Invent". :/ -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #37 from Forest --- Er, I mean the Gitlab instance. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #36 from Forest --- >"Your account has been blocked. Please contact your GitLab administrator if you >think this is an error." > >Not sure why. I can login to my KDE Identity account. I suspect the bug tracker doesn't use the KDE identity server. (At least, I didn't notice a request to identity.kde.org when I logged in.) If that's true, I think you would have to create a new account. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #35 from Max --- (In reply to Forest from comment #33) > it might help to add a thumbs-up vote on the the merge request's top level > comment/description Thanks for sharing, I upvoted. People who thumbed down probably are not satisfied for the same reason this bug report was created — not having an option toggle in settings. I believe that adding an option is the only way to make everyone happy. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #34 from flan_suse --- (In reply to Forest from comment #33) > Strangely, a few people have given my merge request a thumbs-down, with no > valid criticism beyond having to adapt their muscle memory to a positioning > change. It seems those people think a one-time inconvenience to them > outweighs the unending frustration to others that is caused by the current > layout. > > If you want to see this fixed, I suppose it might help to add a thumbs-up > vote on the the merge request's top level comment/description. Here's the > link: > > https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-desktop/-/merge_requests/1628 > > If you join the discussion there, please keep comments constructive, of > course. "Your account has been blocked. Please contact your GitLab administrator if you think this is an error." Not sure why. I can login to my KDE Identity account. But trying to use it to access the GitLab gives me the above error message. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #33 from Forest --- Strangely, a few people have given my merge request a thumbs-down, with no valid criticism beyond having to adapt their muscle memory to a positioning change. It seems those people think a one-time inconvenience to them outweighs the unending frustration to others that is caused by the current layout. If you want to see this fixed, I suppose it might help to add a thumbs-up vote on the the merge request's top level comment/description. Here's the link: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-desktop/-/merge_requests/1628 If you join the discussion there, please keep comments constructive, of course. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #32 from Forest --- Created attachment 161269 --> https://bugs.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=161269=edit draft: Kickoff sidebar automatically on the right (Plasma 5.27) I have been working with Nate (KDE developer) to get this into a state that he's happy with For Plasma 6. The current iteration drops the config option and puts the sidebar on the right by default, unless Kickoff is in a panel on the right edge of the screen. (The config option might return, depending on how the discussion goes.) For testing purposes, here's another draft for Plasma 5. It doesn't remove the triangle filter (that would probably have to be a separate change) but I find that the triangle filter is much better behaved in this repositioned layout, so this might have the nice side effect of also helping people who dislike the filter. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082
--- Comment #31 from flan_suse ---
(In reply to Forest from comment #29)
> > maybe also make the triangle filter toggleable? As it makes no sense with
> > categories sidebar placed on the right side.
>
> It can be reoriented such that it makes sense on either side, and the
> approach I'm using to put the sidebar on the right takes advantage of that.
There needs to be a way to disable it completely.
When it exists in any form, it affects the mouse cursor hovering over it.
Case in point: Even with your modified patch (to switch the default view), the
"Triangle Filter" still interferes with my usage of the categories that are now
on the right side. ("Am I moving my mouse too straight? At an angle? Wiggling
it ?")
The "Triangle Filter" only exists to solve a problem that this new launcher
introduced. And now it becomes a new problem in of itself.
So if your patch gets accepted (which I hope it does!), there needs to be a way
to easily disable the "Triangle Filter".
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[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082
--- Comment #30 from Max ---
(In reply to Forest from comment #29)
> > maybe also make the triangle filter toggleable? As it makes no sense with
> > categories sidebar placed on the right side.
>
> It can be reoriented such that it makes sense on either side, and the
> approach I'm using to put the sidebar on the right takes advantage of that.
I'm not sure if it makes sense, as this filter (per my understanding) was added
specifically to handle mouse movement from bottom left corner to the top right
corner. In case of alternative sidebar placement it probably would only cause
confusion (emotionally descibed by the previous commenter :) ).
I personally against any such sort of mouse filter, as it's directly against
any principles of good UX. When user moves cursor over button, they expect it
to respond by highlight effect, and/or get activated on left click. User may
not know about this whole filter thing and how it works, ending up in situation
when their mouse movement got filtered out — and they just sit there
frustrated, because the button doesn't respond to mouse movement and clicks,
with no visible indication of reason (such as "disabled" greyed out state).
Imagine being a first-time user of KDE Plasma and seeing this ("Linus test", if
you wish) — the first impression would be that the thing is broken and buggy,
that's all...
But anyway, all what I'm suggesting is just an option in settings. I'm totally
okay with "left sidebar + triangle filter" behavior enabled by default — as
long as there's easely discoverable option to change both. But even just an
option for right sidebar placement will already make me much happier.
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[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #29 from Forest --- > maybe also make the triangle filter toggleable? As it makes no sense with > categories sidebar placed on the right side. It can be reoriented such that it makes sense on either side, and the approach I'm using to put the sidebar on the right takes advantage of that. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #28 from Max --- (In reply to Forest from comment #25) > Created attachment 160376 [details] > draft: Kickoff from Plasma 5.27.5 with configurable sidebar position > > I feel strongly that this should be configurable, so I decided to take on > the work of making it so. > > In case anyone wants to test it, here's a patched version of the Kickoff > plasmoid from Plasma 5.27.5, patched with a new "sidebar position" option. > > To install, create a > $HOME/.local/share/plasma/plasmoids/org.kde.plasma.kickofftest/ directory > and place the contents of this archive in it. This will not interfere with > your existing launcher. This new one is called "Application Launcher > (test)", and you'll have to manually add it to your panel. > > I plan to submit patches for both Plasma 5.27 and Plasma on Gitlab soon. Thanks for your great work. I really hope you'll manage to get this to the patch, and that it won't get rejected by the team – as they appear to be quite protective of the whole left sidebar idea. Also, w hile you're here, maybe also make the triangle filter toggleable? As it makes no sense with categories sidebar placed on the right side. But probably it makes sense to be proposed as another patch in case this one will be accepted. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #27 from flan_suse --- (In reply to Forest from comment #25) > Created attachment 160376 [details] > draft: Kickoff from Plasma 5.27.5 with configurable sidebar position > > I feel strongly that this should be configurable, so I decided to take on > the work of making it so. > > In case anyone wants to test it, here's a patched version of the Kickoff > plasmoid from Plasma 5.27.5, patched with a new "sidebar position" option. Just tested it, and it works as you described! CAVEAT: In my opinion, the Legacy Launcher is still preferable, since it already has a sane layout and is much snappier to use. (For reasons already discussed by myself and a few others in this thread.) Even when I move the "Favorites" to the left side, the "Application Categories" (now on the right side) still suffers from the "Triangle Filter". So let's say I want to go to my "Internet" applications. If I move my mouse too fast or at the wrong angle, I'll accidentally end up going to "Office" or "Multimedia" applications. :/ (I'm telling you, this new launcher slows down my workflow and creates more problems than solutions. I hate being "conscious" about using a menu launcher.) This is not an issue with the Legacy Launcher, since it's layout is simpler and easier to navigate. There's no need for any fancy "Triangle Filter" or "predictions", since there's no risk of collisions or overlaps. (With the new launcher, it's such a pain to quickly open up a file from the "History"; while it's very easy and effortless to do so with the Legacy Launcher.) Being able to choose which side your Favorites are displayed is definitely an improvement for this new launcher. My appreciation to you! Ironically, it feels like we're just re-inventing the Legacy Launcher. :P (I'm still going to use the Legacy Launcher. I need to get work done, and I can't feel like my desktop is creating friction or resistance. I don't want to have to "think about" every time I use the launcher.) Cluttering more things into "sub-panes" makes this new launcher feel crammed, and more prone to collisions or accidents. The Legacy Launcher has large, distinct "tabs" to effortlessly switch between modes: Favorites, Applications, Places, History, Settings, Leave, etc. (You can even enable/disable the ones you want.) No fancy mouse movements needed. Nothing's "crammed" together. The new launcher crams "History" and "Places" together, but you need to navigate a "sub-pane" to switch between them, and only after visiting the "Places" section on the bottom. The same for "Favorites" and "Applications". There's just too much going on in a crammed space with this new launcher. It must also bear repeating: It's super annoying to have to consciously move my mouse cursor vertically AS STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE so that it registers immediately what I hover over. If there's an "angle" or "skew" to my movement, it doesn't register the item. (Luckily, this doesn't happen with the "Favorites". It only affects the sub-panes that use a "Triangle Filter".) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 Forest changed: What|Removed |Added Attachment #160376|Kickoff from Plasma 5.27.5, |draft: Kickoff from Plasma description|patched with configurable |5.27.5 with configurable |sidebar position|sidebar position -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #26 from Forest --- *both Plasma 5.27 and Plasma 6. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #25 from Forest --- Created attachment 160376 --> https://bugs.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=160376=edit Kickoff from Plasma 5.27.5, patched with configurable sidebar position I feel strongly that this should be configurable, so I decided to take on the work of making it so. In case anyone wants to test it, here's a patched version of the Kickoff plasmoid from Plasma 5.27.5, patched with a new "sidebar position" option. To install, create a $HOME/.local/share/plasma/plasmoids/org.kde.plasma.kickofftest/ directory and place the contents of this archive in it. This will not interfere with your existing launcher. This new one is called "Application Launcher (test)", and you'll have to manually add it to your panel. I plan to submit patches for both Plasma 5.27 and Plasma on Gitlab soon. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #24 from Max --- I agree with your point that KDE is all about choice, but the choice should not only be about using one start menu or another: the start menu itself should provide the choice and ability to configure it for user's liking, at least the most frequently requested options. You don't have to install whole another taskbar widget in order to get the ability to place it on the right side of your screen, right? Almost every thing in KDE interface has some options and configurations — in fact, there's so much of them, that I keep discovering new options and hidden features even after 6 years of using KDE. And yet, for whatever reason, devs decided to make an exception just for the new Kickoff launcher, implementing quite arguable UX decision and leaving no option to change it, with the argumentation like "get used to it or change the launcher". Just as you mentioned, it feels a lot like macOS, when "big company" forces you to accept their vision on how to use the computer, instead of allowing you to implement your vision. This is not what KDE is all about, in my opinion. Your "solution" about using the Legacy launcher doesn't fit for me, because I quite like the new launcher, I like the grid layout much more that a list one. Also it's the only launcher that will be actively maintained and get new features. But I don't like the left-side sidebar and hover activation — even the legacy launcher had an option to disable hover activation, despite it was less neccessary there. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #23 from Tobias Leupold --- Sadly, this discussion (I think it's not a "bug report" anymore) has reached the point where each post is a rant and the whole thing is trench warfare. In my opinion, Legacy Kickoff has way better design and usability, and is the way better start menu. I totally agree with the other cries of naysayers here. However, the folks developing the new launcher surely did their best and thought about what they implemented. I don't think it's meaningful to tinker the new thing until everybody is happy. This won't happen. The fact the the option to rearrange the layout wasn't implemented yet doesn't mean that the dev(s) can't do this, it means that he/she/they simply don't want to. I'm a (small) KDE dev myself. This whole discussion is annoying and unpleasant for everybody for sure. I also had to deal with dissatisfied users myself. It's not always easy. But we should keep it polite and professional. IMHO, the only viable solution is to eventually leave the decision to the user. Simply package Legacy Kickoff again and let the users choose the launcher they want. But show the choices. Inform the users that they CAN have another start menu. Most users will leave the default settings as-is. A lot of people are used to this from the Windows or macOS word. Don't like something? It's sink or swim. But we DO have the possibility to let the user decide. And that's what KDE is about: Give a reasonable default which is easy and convenient, but also give a choice for more advanced users. What do you think? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #22 from flan_suse --- I'm telling you. As I sit here using the "Legacy Launcher" it feels much more elegant and SNAPPY. The VERY moment I hover over an item or tab it is activated. (And this is good, because everything is isolated from each other: Favorites, Applications, Places, History, Session) It doesn't matter if I move the cursor perfectly vertical... or at a slight 87-degree angle, or with a slight skew, or in a "twitchy" zig-zag. Whatever my cursor is hovering over is "active", and I can click on it or navigate through it. This is true 100% of the time. No unintended targets or "filters" that ignore my mouse position. No fancy attempts to predict my movements. No need to play games with my cursor or do little "wiggles" to make sure I'm "over the target". I click on the Legacy Launcher and move my cursor up and down, as my favorite items are IMMEDIATELY registered the MOMENT I have over them. I click on the Legacy Launcher and move my cursor sideways, as the tab I want is IMMEDIATELY activated (such as "Applications" or "History".) Now in these separate sections, I don't need to worry about any collisions or accidental triggers. EVERYTHING is intuitive and snappy. This is not so with the new launcher. It feels "fidgety". Hovering your cursor over something doesn't always activate it. It "depends" how fast you're moving your cursor and at what angle... that's ridiculous. What other software has to try to "predict" the person's mouse movements, just to use its menus and buttons? That's such a poor way to design something. Imagine if you wrote a reply in this discussion, and tried to click "Save Changes", but it doesn't register because you moved your cursor "too vertically" to reach the button? (Because it predicted you wanted to navigate to something else?) I'm pleading with the devs here. Please just give KDE users a simple, intuitive launcher with easy targets and no ambiguity on its behavior. (The Legacy Launcher was practically perfect.) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #21 from flan_suse --- (In reply to Forest from comment #20) > > It was hoped that the triangle filter would alleviate complaints about > > unintended category switching, > > and so far it has done so. > > I'm afraid not. Here comes yet another complaint about unintended category > switching, this time from a Plasma 5.27.5 user. Here's another issue with this new launcher, even on the latest KDE release on vanilla Arch Linux: Even for the times you *WANT* to navigate to a category, you have to move your cursor in a way that doesn't trigger the "triangle filter", otherwise your "hover" will not be registered, and the category will not be selected! (I find I have to sometimes do a little horizontal "wiggle" with my cursor for it to select the category. I sure do love playing mind-games with my mouse cursor!) So now we're in a weird pickle: You have to be conscious about how you move your cursor to quickly reach a Favorite, or else you'll accidentally trigger a category... *BUT* ...ff you *WANT* to trigger a category, it might not work since the "triangle filter" may accidentally assume you want to reach a Favorite! Hooray! /s It's comical. The menu launcher is meant to be simple and sleek, without requiring any special consideration from the end-user, let alone an added layer of complexity with the "triangle filter". What's the solution to this? Fix the layout of the launcher? Add an option on which side to place the Favorites? Add an option on whether you should click or hover to activate a tab? Place the "Applications" tab on the bottom for more "breathable" access? (They already do this with the "Places" tab.) Nope! Let's figure out how to make the "triangle filter" even more intelligent to predict human behavior! There's no way we can concede that this new launcher's design is inferior to the Legacy Launcher. (As a side-note concern: I wouldn't be surprised if this eventually is fixed, yet it still remains frustrating to access your Favorites because there exists a "triangle filter" that will still try to predict your mouse movements and neglect to activate the item that is being hovered over). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 --- Comment #20 from Forest --- > It was hoped that the triangle filter would alleviate complaints about > unintended category switching, > and so far it has done so. I'm afraid not. Here comes yet another complaint about unintended category switching, this time from a Plasma 5.27.5 user. I'm an imperfect human in a physical world, and as such, my mouse movements are not in perfect lines. When my pointer inevitably strays from the prescribed path on the way from launcher button to favorites list, this new launcher cruelly yanks my favorites out of view, replacing them with something unwanted and disorienting. This happens dozens of times per day, every day. A month of use has not made it easier. It feels like the UI is actively trying to defeat me. I'm baffled as to why someone would take a convenience tool like a favorites list, and move it out of easy reach, and furthermore place obstacles in the way. Is there a common use case for which this arrangement works well? If so, then it seems to me that an option to swap the favorites and categories positions would be an elegant compromise. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 Forest changed: What|Removed |Added CC||fores...@nom.one --- Comment #19 from Forest --- > a lot of the time users go quiet is because of fatigue. Indeed. This is why I stopped reporting systemd bugs, for example. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
[plasmashell] [Bug 443082] Move categories sidebar to other side of main view for better usability (like how SimpleMenu does it)
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443082 Nate Graham changed: What|Removed |Added Severity|normal |wishlist Summary|Categories sidebar is |Move categories sidebar to |located in the wrong place |other side of main view for |for optimal usability |better usability (like how ||SimpleMenu does it) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
