Re: 4th global climate strike - should KDE take action?

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

I have sent a former vote proposal to the e.V. list now.
We'll see what happens.

On 04.11.19 15:56, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:
> Hello Christoph,
> thanks for your fast answer.
> 
> You're rigth, the general interest in this topic is very low at this moment, 
> there were neither positive nor negative reactions.
> 
> I would not be able to start a KDE e.V. online voting as I am not a member of 
> the KDE e.V. .
> Your's faithfully
> cahfofpai
> 
> 4. Nov. 2019, 15:43 von christ...@cullmann.io:
> 
>> On 2019-11-04 15:32, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:
>>
>>> Dear KDE community,
>>>
>>> two questions:
>>> Christoph and David suggested to do a poll on this topic to get a
>>> consent within the community. Is such a consent finding process
>>> already established, for example described by an official document by
>>> the KDE e.V., and was such a community wide poll ever done before?
>>> During the discussions for the last global climate strike people
>>> mentioned there are ongoing conversations in the KDE e.V. on improving
>>> the community's climate impact - what's the current state of this
>>> discussions and are there any results yet?
>>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> we have only e.V. internal voting setup procedures
>>
>> https://ev.kde.org/rules/online_voting.php
>>
>> and I think that would be enough to do for this, if somebody triggers that.
>>
>> Until now, there seems to be zero positive feedback about this request on 
>> this list anyways,
>> not sure if voting makes then any sense.
>>
>> For the state of discussions about climate impact: I think we have not yet 
>> reached
>> any decision there e.V. internally.
>>
>> Greetings
>> Christoph
>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours
>>> cahfofpai
>>>
>>>
>>> 30. Okt. 2019, 15:24 von david.hu...@mailbox.org:
>>>
 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:57:42 +0100
 From: Christoph Cullmann 

> On 2019-10-29 12:18, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:
>> Dear KDE Community,
>>
>> On 29th of November, the fourth global climate strike will take place.
>>
>> For the last global climate strike, a banner was placed on the website
>> (https://web.archive.org/web/20190921055543/https://kde.org/
>> ) and a
>> social media post was published
>> (https://mastodon.technology/@kde/102821138461667105
>> ).
>>
>> Should we (as a community) take action at the next global climate
>> strike? A blog post and / or a social media post about the progress of
>> internal discussions about KDE's climate impact and how it could be
>> improved came to my mind.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> Hi,
>
> I am not sure the last action in this regard was well perceived by all
> parts
> of the community or KDE e.V.
>
> Given we lacked time for the last strike to clarify this better, would
> it be
> a good idea this time to e.g. at least have a poll inside the e.V. if we
> want
> to support that?
>
> Greetings
> Christoph
>

 Hi,

 after reading the discussion from september, I think a poll is the minimum.
 Even withot the next climate strike, I feel we have to do the poll.

 Cheers, David

>>
>> -- 
>> Ignorance is bliss...
>> https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org
>>
> 

Re: 4th global climate strike - should KDE take action?

[Mirko Boehm]

Hello!

> On 4. Nov 2019, at 16:00, Christoph Cullmann  wrote:
> 
> I will just CC the e.V. list with this mail, perhaps somebody is interested 
> there.
> 
> Given I am more inclined to not take part in such "political"
> actions not actually software development related,
> I will not step up to request some vote for this.

I think the usual KDE approach is to have a discussion and let the contributors 
decide for themselves what the right course of action for them is. 

It would be worthwhile to think about making “sustainable computing” a KDE goal 
(as in “the desktop should be as energy-efficient as possible”, for example). 
That would have a concrete impact on the community. See here, too: 
https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/sdg12 


Best,

Mirko.
-- 
Mirko Boehm | mi...@kde.org | KDE e.V.
Qt Certified Specialist and Trainer
Request a meeting: https://doodle.com/mirkoboehm

Re: 4th global climate strike - should KDE take action?

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2019-11-04 15:56, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:

Hello Christoph,
thanks for your fast answer.

You're rigth, the general interest in this topic is very low at this
moment, there were neither positive nor negative reactions.

I would not be able to start a KDE e.V. online voting as I am not a
member of the KDE e.V. .
Your's faithfully
cahfofpai


Hi,

I will just CC the e.V. list with this mail, perhaps somebody is 
interested there.


Given I am more inclined to not take part in such "political"
actions not actually software development related,
I will not step up to request some vote for this.

Greetings
Christoph



4. Nov. 2019, 15:43 von christ...@cullmann.io:


On 2019-11-04 15:32, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:


Dear KDE community,

two questions:
Christoph and David suggested to do a poll on this topic to get a
consent within the community. Is such a consent finding process
already established, for example described by an official document by
the KDE e.V., and was such a community wide poll ever done before?
During the discussions for the last global climate strike people
mentioned there are ongoing conversations in the KDE e.V. on 
improving

the community's climate impact - what's the current state of this
discussions and are there any results yet?



Hi,

we have only e.V. internal voting setup procedures

https://ev.kde.org/rules/online_voting.php

and I think that would be enough to do for this, if somebody triggers 
that.


Until now, there seems to be zero positive feedback about this request 
on this list anyways,

not sure if voting makes then any sense.

For the state of discussions about climate impact: I think we have not 
yet reached

any decision there e.V. internally.

Greetings
Christoph



Sincerely yours
cahfofpai


30. Okt. 2019, 15:24 von david.hu...@mailbox.org:


Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:57:42 +0100
From: Christoph Cullmann 


On 2019-10-29 12:18, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:
> Dear KDE Community,
>
> On 29th of November, the fourth global climate strike will take place.
>
> For the last global climate strike, a banner was placed on the website
> (https://web.archive.org/web/20190921055543/https://kde.org/
> ) and a
> social media post was published
> (https://mastodon.technology/@kde/102821138461667105
> ).
>
> Should we (as a community) take action at the next global climate
> strike? A blog post and / or a social media post about the progress of
> internal discussions about KDE's climate impact and how it could be
> improved came to my mind.
>
> What do you think?

Hi,

I am not sure the last action in this regard was well perceived by 
all

parts
of the community or KDE e.V.

Given we lacked time for the last strike to clarify this better, 
would

it be
a good idea this time to e.g. at least have a poll inside the e.V. 
if we

want
to support that?

Greetings
Christoph



Hi,

after reading the discussion from september, I think a poll is the 
minimum.

Even withot the next climate strike, I feel we have to do the poll.

Cheers, David



--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org



--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: 4th global climate strike - should KDE take action?

[cahfofpai]

Hello Christoph,
thanks for your fast answer.

You're rigth, the general interest in this topic is very low at this moment, 
there were neither positive nor negative reactions.

I would not be able to start a KDE e.V. online voting as I am not a member of 
the KDE e.V. .
Your's faithfully
cahfofpai

4. Nov. 2019, 15:43 von christ...@cullmann.io:

> On 2019-11-04 15:32, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:
>
>> Dear KDE community,
>>
>> two questions:
>> Christoph and David suggested to do a poll on this topic to get a
>> consent within the community. Is such a consent finding process
>> already established, for example described by an official document by
>> the KDE e.V., and was such a community wide poll ever done before?
>> During the discussions for the last global climate strike people
>> mentioned there are ongoing conversations in the KDE e.V. on improving
>> the community's climate impact - what's the current state of this
>> discussions and are there any results yet?
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> we have only e.V. internal voting setup procedures
>
> https://ev.kde.org/rules/online_voting.php
>
> and I think that would be enough to do for this, if somebody triggers that.
>
> Until now, there seems to be zero positive feedback about this request on 
> this list anyways,
> not sure if voting makes then any sense.
>
> For the state of discussions about climate impact: I think we have not yet 
> reached
> any decision there e.V. internally.
>
> Greetings
> Christoph
>
>>
>> Sincerely yours
>> cahfofpai
>>
>>
>> 30. Okt. 2019, 15:24 von david.hu...@mailbox.org:
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:57:42 +0100
>>> From: Christoph Cullmann 
>>>
 On 2019-10-29 12:18, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:
 > Dear KDE Community,
 >
 > On 29th of November, the fourth global climate strike will take place.
 >
 > For the last global climate strike, a banner was placed on the website
 > (https://web.archive.org/web/20190921055543/https://kde.org/
 > ) and a
 > social media post was published
 > (https://mastodon.technology/@kde/102821138461667105
 > ).
 >
 > Should we (as a community) take action at the next global climate
 > strike? A blog post and / or a social media post about the progress of
 > internal discussions about KDE's climate impact and how it could be
 > improved came to my mind.
 >
 > What do you think?

 Hi,

 I am not sure the last action in this regard was well perceived by all
 parts
 of the community or KDE e.V.

 Given we lacked time for the last strike to clarify this better, would
 it be
 a good idea this time to e.g. at least have a poll inside the e.V. if we
 want
 to support that?

 Greetings
 Christoph

>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> after reading the discussion from september, I think a poll is the minimum.
>>> Even withot the next climate strike, I feel we have to do the poll.
>>>
>>> Cheers, David
>>>
>
> -- 
> Ignorance is bliss...
> https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org
>

Re: 4th global climate strike - should KDE take action?

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2019-11-04 15:32, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:

Dear KDE community,

two questions:
Christoph and David suggested to do a poll on this topic to get a
consent within the community. Is such a consent finding process
already established, for example described by an official document by
the KDE e.V., and was such a community wide poll ever done before?
During the discussions for the last global climate strike people
mentioned there are ongoing conversations in the KDE e.V. on improving
the community's climate impact - what's the current state of this
discussions and are there any results yet?


Hi,

we have only e.V. internal voting setup procedures

https://ev.kde.org/rules/online_voting.php

and I think that would be enough to do for this, if somebody triggers 
that.


Until now, there seems to be zero positive feedback about this request 
on this list anyways,

not sure if voting makes then any sense.

For the state of discussions about climate impact: I think we have not 
yet reached

any decision there e.V. internally.

Greetings
Christoph



Sincerely yours
cahfofpai


30. Okt. 2019, 15:24 von david.hu...@mailbox.org:


Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:57:42 +0100
From: Christoph Cullmann 


On 2019-10-29 12:18, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:
> Dear KDE Community,
>
> On 29th of November, the fourth global climate strike will take place.
>
> For the last global climate strike, a banner was placed on the website
> (https://web.archive.org/web/20190921055543/https://kde.org/
> ) and a
> social media post was published
> (https://mastodon.technology/@kde/102821138461667105
> ).
>
> Should we (as a community) take action at the next global climate
> strike? A blog post and / or a social media post about the progress of
> internal discussions about KDE's climate impact and how it could be
> improved came to my mind.
>
> What do you think?

Hi,

I am not sure the last action in this regard was well perceived by 
all

parts
of the community or KDE e.V.

Given we lacked time for the last strike to clarify this better, 
would

it be
a good idea this time to e.g. at least have a poll inside the e.V. if 
we

want
to support that?

Greetings
Christoph



Hi,

after reading the discussion from september, I think a poll is the 
minimum.

Even withot the next climate strike, I feel we have to do the poll.

Cheers, David



--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: 4th global climate strike - should KDE take action?

[cahfofpai]

Dear KDE community,

two questions:
Christoph and David suggested to do a poll on this topic to get a consent 
within the community. Is such a consent finding process already established, 
for example described by an official document by the KDE e.V., and was such a 
community wide poll ever done before?
During the discussions for the last global climate strike people mentioned 
there are ongoing conversations in the KDE e.V. on improving the community's 
climate impact - what's the current state of this discussions and are there any 
results yet?

Sincerely yours
cahfofpai


30. Okt. 2019, 15:24 von david.hu...@mailbox.org:

> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:57:42 +0100
> From: Christoph Cullmann 
>
>> On 2019-10-29 12:18, cahfof...@tuta.io wrote:
>> > Dear KDE Community,
>> > 
>> > On 29th of November, the fourth global climate strike will take place.
>> > 
>> > For the last global climate strike, a banner was placed on the website
>> > (https://web.archive.org/web/20190921055543/https://kde.org/
>> > ) and a
>> > social media post was published
>> > (https://mastodon.technology/@kde/102821138461667105
>> > ).
>> > 
>> > Should we (as a community) take action at the next global climate
>> > strike? A blog post and / or a social media post about the progress of
>> > internal discussions about KDE's climate impact and how it could be
>> > improved came to my mind.
>> > 
>> > What do you think?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am not sure the last action in this regard was well perceived by all
>> parts
>> of the community or KDE e.V.
>>
>> Given we lacked time for the last strike to clarify this better, would
>> it be
>> a good idea this time to e.g. at least have a poll inside the e.V. if we
>> want
>> to support that?
>>
>> Greetings
>> Christoph
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> after reading the discussion from september, I think a poll is the minimum. 
> Even withot the next climate strike, I feel we have to do the poll.
>
> Cheers, David
>

Re: Issues with the issue tracking system

[Harald Sitter]

Hey.

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 2:12 AM Philippe Cloutier  wrote:
>
> Dear community,
> I am facing 2 issues with the ITS which I cannot solve myself currently.
>
> Over the last months, I requested the "severity" (importance) of several
> tickets to be adjusted:
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149902#c4
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317656#c17
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=410284#c7
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=206170#c4
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=408981#c4
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=407059#c1

We don't adjust either field because we feel like it, Martin explains
very well why. Since nobody acted on your proposals the conclusion to
draw is that nobody agreed with them enough to take action.

> No adjustment was done yet. Please either:
> 1. Solve https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=272388
> 2. Allow more developers to modify the field
> 3. Or perform the requested changes
>
> #3 would already be appreciated, but I recommend more as 6/6 over 2
> weeks after the latest request was done visibly signals a systemic issue.

As Christoph, Martin and David explained now, there is nothing to deal
with in that report ...

>
> As for the more delicate issue, many reports I filed recently against
> bugs.kde.org were mishandled. In fact, most of them were, and that is
> all due to one individual's actions. This can be seen below:
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=411285
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=412299
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=412321
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=413343
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=413344
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_activity.cgi?id=413346

... and I see a pattern here. You may find yourself disagreeing with
an action, that doesn't make the action wrong. Further brigading
doesn't necessarily increase the chances of overturning a decision
either.

> This has been going on for more than a month now, and I now hesitate to
> keep contributing, as I feel many of my contributions would go through
> the trash. I believe I made a fair effort at solving this with simple
> communication, as can be seen in #411285 and #412299, but that avenue
> appears to be insufficient.
>
> On the other hand, I saw the same individual contribute positively
> shortly before, and one who looks well will find a few positive
> contributions even in the above. Health is not my profession, and I do
> not know enough about him to make any kind of diagnosis.

Let me be perfectly clear: you are way out of line here. Which is all
the more concerning considering you have been contributing to KDE for
more than a decade [1] so I am sure you've picked up on how we as a
community conduct ourselves and how we solve issues. Talk with the
affected people and teams on IRC or the respective mailing lists. If
all else fails we have an excellent community working group to help us
resolve conflicts. Throwing mud on the community-wide mailing list is
decidedly not part of the conflict resolution recipe.

What I am observing is a huge disconnect that is best summed up by
your comment here:

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=412321#c5

You do not seem to realize that Nate is a KDE Developer, an active and
well respected one at that. He is also a super active bug triager. So
you were not only telling a developer that they can't close your
report because they are in the wrong, you then also go on to explain
to a member of a bug triage team how to triage bugs correctly. "It's
not what you say - it's how you say it" and the way *you* communicated
is with a distinct air of superiority, I'll not faulting anyone for
not being super receptive or engaging after encounters like that.

Finally, we find ourselves here with you implying that Nate is of
unsound mind and needs to be dealt with somehow... You are wrong and
this is utterly disrespectful. Nate is well. He's a treasure to this
community. I have read through the reports and couldn't find him in
the wrong.

I very much urge you to take a step back. Look at your conduct and
reflect on it.

[1] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=411285#c9
[2] https://community.kde.org/Guidelines_and_HOWTOs/Bug_triaging

HS

Re: Issues with the issue tracking system

[Eike Hein]

> Regarding "finger-pointing", I've taken care not to name the person 
> responsible for the situation.

You've pretended not name them to be able to claim this, but made it abundantly 
clear who you're butting heads with and gone as far as suggesting mental health 
problems and feigning concern.

This strikes me as agitated and emotional at best, and destructive and immature 
behavior at worst.

This is not the venue for mudslinging of this kind, and if you want to have a 
productive discussion of your topic you should own up and apologize for it 
before engaging further.



Cheers,
Eike Hein
-
KDE e.V. vice president, treasurer
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Issues with the issue tracking system

[Martin Flöser]

Am 2019-11-04 02:11, schrieb Philippe Cloutier:

Dear community,
I am facing 2 issues with the ITS which I cannot solve myself 
currently.


Over the last months, I requested the "severity" (importance) of
several tickets to be adjusted:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149902#c4
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317656#c17
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=410284#c7
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=206170#c4
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=408981#c4
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=407059#c1

No adjustment was done yet. Please either:
1. Solve https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=272388
2. Allow more developers to modify the field
3. Or perform the requested changes


I just looked through some of the bug reports and I think there is a 
general misunderstanding about bugs. Let me first introduce myself: I 
used to be KWin maintainer and managed all incoming bug reports for 
KWin. KWin is one of the products in bugs.kde.org getting most new 
reports - about 600 reports just last year.


While it would be awesome to fix all issues, that is just impossible. We 
are a community of mostly volunteer developers and don't have the time 
to fix all issues, especially not in a timely manner. Some bug reports 
while seeming a minor issue on first glance are a big issue and require 
years of planning and work. In my development it happened quite 
regularly that after years the code base had moved in a way to resolve 
10+ year open bug reports.


What I did not like at all when managing the bugs, was:
 * adding comments "still not fixed in 5.12.3" as that adds useless 
noise. If it's fixed we mark it as fixed, otherwise it's not fixed. 
That's the state of the bug.

 * users changing severity.

The severity is a field important to developers. We decide how important 
an issue is. Of course the issue is important to the affected users, 
otherwise they would not have reported the issue. We are quite aware 
that an issue is important, is affecting users and is problematic to 
workflows. Changing the severity doesn't indicate this. Every user 
thinks his issue is critical. If users are allowed to change the 
severity it would end in every bug report being critical. It becomes a 
nagging feature which is working against the community.


In KWin I used the severity field to decide what gets fixed. E.g. 
critical in KWin has the meaning "system freeze". A critical bug has 
highest importance. It's the issue which has to be resolved before any 
other work. It's the issue which once fixed results in an emergency 
release. I hope you understand that if a user reported a bug as critical 
I immediately changed back the severity to "normal" - which is what it 
is in most cases.


Overall my suggestion is to not nag in bug reports. At least in my 
involvement nagging and demanding in bug reports always had the opposite 
effect. If I have n bugs to fix and time to fix m bugs and n is 
significantly larger than m, I chose the subset m which gives me in 
volunteer working most pleasure.


As bad as it sounds: the best way to get bugs fixed is to get involved. 
Sorry.


Best Regards
Martin Flöser