Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Nate Graham]

On 7/8/20 4:27 PM, Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote:

On Mittwoch, 8. Juli 2020 20:27:58 CEST Christoph Cullmann wrote:

Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is
possible.

(and perhaps promote the KDE e.V. uploaded stuff better)


+1
IMO the most important thing here is to prevent someone else giving KDE a bad
reputation by providing a low quality app. The best way to do that is to
provide an official app - I think people will use that one if they have the
opportunity.


Yeah.

Uploading these apps ourselves seems to be the obvious solution. This 
will also undercut any 3rd-party uploads that cost money, because who 
would pay money for a counterfeit version when the original thing 
straight from the authors is free?


Nate

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Johannes Zarl-Zierl]

On Mittwoch, 8. Juli 2020 20:27:58 CEST Christoph Cullmann wrote:
> Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is
> possible.
> 
> (and perhaps promote the KDE e.V. uploaded stuff better)

+1
IMO the most important thing here is to prevent someone else giving KDE a bad 
reputation by providing a low quality app. The best way to do that is to 
provide an official app - I think people will use that one if they have the 
opportunity.

Cheers,
  Johannes

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Albert Astals Cid]

El dimecres, 8 de juliol de 2020, a les 20:54:13 CEST, Martin Floeser va 
escriure:
> Am 2020-07-08 20:45, schrieb Jack:
> > On 2020.07.08 14:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:
> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> >> > > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft
> >> Store
> >> > > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score
> >> for
> >> > > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We
> >> don't
> >> > > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence
> >> allows
> >> > > it.
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > have you some links to these applications?
> >> 
> >> I believe Jonathan will be referring to
> >> https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#
> > If I follow that link, and click for the US version, I see KDiff3 for
> > sale at $4.99.  Does the license actually allow charging?  (I wonder
> > how that is split between MS and the uploader.)
> 
> GPLv3 Section 6 d
> "Convey the object code by offering access from a designated place 
> (gratis or for a charge), and offer equivalent access to the 
> Corresponding Source in the same way through the same place at no 
> further charge. "
> 
> So yes, charging is fine, not providing the source code looks to me like 
> a GPL violation. And I think that puts the ball to KDE e.V. board to 
> contact Microsoft.

AFAIU the source code only needs to be provided to those that the binary is 
provided, so someone needs to buy it first to see if they are providing the 
source code or not.

Cheers,
  Albert

> 
> Cheers
> Martin
> 

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Nicolás Alvarez]

El mié., 8 de jul. de 2020 a la(s) 15:28, Christoph Cullmann
(christ...@cullmann.io) escribió:
>
> On 2020-07-08 20:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> >> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> >> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> >> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> >> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> >> > it.
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> have you some links to these applications?
> >
> > I believe Jonathan will be referring to
> > https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#
>
> Hi, thanks for the link.
>
> Guess such things are unavoidable.
>
> If the uploading person is some KDE community member, I assume one could
> talk with him/her/...

I doubt it's a KDE community member. Here are all their uploaded apps,
only one is KDE:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search/shop/Apps?q=Dev+Packager

> Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is
> possible.

Well, I don't know if the app is complying with the GPL. I would need
to purchase it to see if the downloaded package has the full GPL
license text, and the Corresponding Sources or a link to it. (Which,
by the way, I'm not sure if we're strictly following in our own
official uploads to the MS Store)

-- 
Nicolás

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Martin Floeser]

Am 2020-07-08 20:45, schrieb Jack:

On 2020.07.08 14:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann
 wrote:
>
> On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft
Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score
for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We
don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence
allows
> > it.
>
> Hi,
>
> have you some links to these applications?

I believe Jonathan will be referring to
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#

If I follow that link, and click for the US version, I see KDiff3 for
sale at $4.99.  Does the license actually allow charging?  (I wonder
how that is split between MS and the uploader.)


GPLv3 Section 6 d
"Convey the object code by offering access from a designated place 
(gratis or for a charge), and offer equivalent access to the 
Corresponding Source in the same way through the same place at no 
further charge. "


So yes, charging is fine, not providing the source code looks to me like 
a GPL violation. And I think that puts the ball to KDE e.V. board to 
contact Microsoft.


Cheers
Martin

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Michael Reeves]

For kdiff3 this would be a starting point. https://phabricator.kde.org/T9580

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020, 2:34 PM Martin Floeser  wrote:

> Am 2020-07-08 18:12, schrieb Jonathan Riddell:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> > it.
>
> Honestly I don't think we should try to get software from Microsoft
> Store based on trademark. As you already notice our license allows this.
> And even more on Linux it's the normal way that someone else distributes
> our software. Back in the days SuSE even sold our software. It's even
> common that our distributors apply patches to our software. So we
> shouldn't treat the Microsoft Store different to Linux distributions.
>
> Granted I consider it as a huge problem that the Microsoft Store might
> contain copies of our software with malware. But to that we have
> solutions: the GPL. We can demand the source code from those
> distributors. If they don't comply: even better, than we have something!
> If they comply and our software is reproducible, we can verify that the
> uploaded binary is not tampered with (and that it doesn't comply to
> GPL). Yes, that puts work on our shoulders. If our software doesn't
> build reproducible, we need to fix that.
>
> Otherwise I suggest that we bring all our software in the Microsoft
> Store to ensure we at least uploaded it. If we have it uploaded and
> someone else uploads it as well, we can still ask Microsoft to do
> something about it. I hope that Microsoft is interested in not
> distributing malware and removes copies of open source projects or adds
> links to the original authors. After all Microsoft really tries to be on
> the good side currently, so we should try ;-)
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jack]

On 2020.07.08 14:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:
On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann  
 wrote:

>
> On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft  
Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score  
for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We  
don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence  
allows

> > it.
>
> Hi,
>
> have you some links to these applications?

I believe Jonathan will be referring to
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#
If I follow that link, and click for the US version, I see KDiff3 for  
sale at $4.99.  Does the license actually allow charging?  (I wonder  
how that is split between MS and the uploader.)   I know you can charge  
for media, but this is download, so no media.  It also doesn't seem to  
mention anything about where the source code is available.  I don't see  
any mention of KDE at all, but I suppose that is legal.


I'm curious what happens if someone buys this, and then needs help.  Do  
they go to the uploader?  I doubt it.  Do they go to Microsoft?  I  
doubt it.  If the program hasn't been modified by the uploader to point  
to a different source of help, it probably points back to KDE.


If KDE does officially upload anything to the Window Store, should we  
just upload an official version whenever we see this happen?



> > One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't
> > hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our
> > website starting with kde.org/applications [1]. Some apps such as
> > KOffice have done this in the past anyway.  This doesn't cost
> > anything, only a registered trademark (which uses the ®. logo)  
costs

> > money.  It might give us more ability to take down random people
> > posting our software on app stores.  It might also make us look  
more
> > corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros from  
shipping

> > our software.
> >
> > Should we add ™ next to the app names?
>
> As other already posted, I don't think this is sufficient nor do I  
think
> that is really the direction we should move to. (at least for Kate,  
I am

> fine with the status quo).

I concur with that sentiment.

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Martin Floeser]

Am 2020-07-08 18:12, schrieb Jonathan Riddell:

Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
it.


Honestly I don't think we should try to get software from Microsoft 
Store based on trademark. As you already notice our license allows this. 
And even more on Linux it's the normal way that someone else distributes 
our software. Back in the days SuSE even sold our software. It's even 
common that our distributors apply patches to our software. So we 
shouldn't treat the Microsoft Store different to Linux distributions.


Granted I consider it as a huge problem that the Microsoft Store might 
contain copies of our software with malware. But to that we have 
solutions: the GPL. We can demand the source code from those 
distributors. If they don't comply: even better, than we have something! 
If they comply and our software is reproducible, we can verify that the 
uploaded binary is not tampered with (and that it doesn't comply to 
GPL). Yes, that puts work on our shoulders. If our software doesn't 
build reproducible, we need to fix that.


Otherwise I suggest that we bring all our software in the Microsoft 
Store to ensure we at least uploaded it. If we have it uploaded and 
someone else uploads it as well, we can still ask Microsoft to do 
something about it. I hope that Microsoft is interested in not 
distributing malware and removes copies of open source projects or adds 
links to the original authors. After all Microsoft really tries to be on 
the good side currently, so we should try ;-)


Cheers
Martin

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-08 20:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:
On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann 
 wrote:


On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> it.

Hi,

have you some links to these applications?


I believe Jonathan will be referring to
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#


Hi, thanks for the link.

Guess such things are unavoidable.

If the uploading person is some KDE community member, I assume one could 
talk with him/her/...


Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is 
possible.


(and perhaps promote the KDE e.V. uploaded stuff better)

Greetings
Christoph

--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Ben Cooksley]

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann  wrote:
>
> On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> > it.
>
> Hi,
>
> have you some links to these applications?

I believe Jonathan will be referring to
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#

>
> >
> > One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't
> > hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our
> > website starting with kde.org/applications [1]. Some apps such as
> > KOffice have done this in the past anyway.  This doesn't cost
> > anything, only a registered trademark (which uses the ®. logo) costs
> > money.  It might give us more ability to take down random people
> > posting our software on app stores.  It might also make us look more
> > corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros from shipping
> > our software.
> >
> > Should we add ™ next to the app names?
>
> As other already posted, I don't think this is sufficient nor do I think
> that is really the direction we should move to. (at least for Kate, I am
> fine with the status quo).

I concur with that sentiment.

>
> Greetings
> Christoph

Cheers,
Ben

>
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > --
> > [1] http://kde.org/applications
>
> --
> Ignorance is bliss...
> https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:

Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
it.


Hi,

have you some links to these applications?



One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't
hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our
website starting with kde.org/applications [1]. Some apps such as
KOffice have done this in the past anyway.  This doesn't cost
anything, only a registered trademark (which uses the ®. logo) costs
money.  It might give us more ability to take down random people
posting our software on app stores.  It might also make us look more
corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros from shipping
our software.

Should we add ™ next to the app names?


As other already posted, I don't think this is sufficient nor do I think
that is really the direction we should move to. (at least for Kate, I am
fine with the status quo).

Greetings
Christoph



Jonathan



Links:
--
[1] http://kde.org/applications


--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Uli Klinkhammer]

Hey Jonathan, Hey all@kde,

I am totally new to the KDE scene, but if you ask for my opinion:

I would really not recommend it.

If you begin with those "business game attitudes" on one day, you will 
most likely end up opening a Pandoras Box. In my opinion, the best is to 
keep out of those playing fields.


There has been "free riders" at any time. Fighting them is the first 
step to enter a fighting world.


Uli - (KONTENT GmbH - KDE Supporter)


On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store 
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for 
their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't 
know the motivations. Since it's all free software the licence allows it.


One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names. This isn't 
hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our 
website starting with kde.org/applications 
. Some apps such as KOffice have done 
this in the past anyway. This doesn't cost anything, only a registered 
trademark (which uses the ®. logo) costs money. It might give us more 
ability to take down random people posting our software on app 
stores.  It might also make us look more corporate than we want to 
look and put off Linux distros from shipping our software.


Should we add ™ next to the app names?

Jonathan


--

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Paul Brown]

On miércoles, 8 de julio de 2020 18:12:49 (CEST) Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for their
> developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't know the
> motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows it.
> 
> One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't hard, we
> just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our website starting
> with kde.org/applications. Some apps such as KOffice have done this in the
> past anyway.  This doesn't cost anything, only a registered trademark
> (which uses the ®. logo) costs money.  It might give us more ability to
> take down random people posting our software on app stores.  It might also
> make us look more corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros
> from shipping our software.
> 
> Should we add ™ next to the app names?

I agree this is a tremendous concern and should be treated accordingly. It not 
only damages the reputation of the projects and deprives the creators from a 
potential source of income that could help maintain the project, but also puts 
would-be users in danger, which is unacceptable. Thanks for bringing this up, 
Jon.

I don't think putting TM next to the name is enough, though. IANAL, so take 
the following with a grain of salt: in my experience (I had to register 
several names of magazines back in the day) you always have to go through some 
registry office or another to confer any validity to you brand name. It is not 
hard and it is not expensive, but it is a bit of a hassle.

Furthermore, unfortunately these registry offices only protect in the 
jurisdictions where they operate, so you can have an EU-wide protection, but 
it won't cover you if someone abuses your mark in the US. To protect against 
that you would need to register with the corresponding authority in the US 
also.

But, maybe, to get illegitimate content removed from app stores, it may be 
enough to wave your local trademark documentation under the noses of the 
administrators, regardless of the jurisdiction the offending material was 
uploaded in.

Again, not a lawyer, maybe someone with more knowledge can give us more 
insight.

Either way, yes, this problem should be addressed early before it comes round 
and bites us bad.

Cheers

Paul
-- 
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KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jonathan Riddell]

Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for their
developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't know the
motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows it.

One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't hard, we
just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our website starting
with kde.org/applications. Some apps such as KOffice have done this in the
past anyway.  This doesn't cost anything, only a registered trademark
(which uses the ®. logo) costs money.  It might give us more ability to
take down random people posting our software on app stores.  It might also
make us look more corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros
from shipping our software.

Should we add ™ next to the app names?

Jonathan