Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings
Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote: Just a small suggestion on how i think this should be fixed (since 2 desktop files for one app seems just ugly to me). Perhaps it's better to extend the desktop file specification: http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s05.html And i would propose adding 2 entries: NativeDE - This one holds the desktop environment name where the app would be native. So GNOME, KDE or whatever. NameNonNative - This one holds the app name when it's shown in a desktop environment that is not native. When not set fallback to Name So for example the System Settings app in KDE looks somewhat like this in a .desktop file: Name=System Settings NativeDE=KDE NameNonNative=KDE System Settings The same applies for gnome system settings and also for the system monitor (that also has the naming issue) Isn't this a good solution? Regards, Mark I think this is the right idea - have a generic name and a native-desktop-specific name. But I think it could be implemented more nicely. I suggest the following: Name=KDE System Settings KDE-Name=System Settings Name=Gnome System Settings Gnome-Name=System Settings This would be a little easier to implement, and has the advantage that the non-native name will be used for any DE that doesn't specifically know about the extension. For example, in Xfce, you will get KDE System Settings and Gnome System Settings without Xfce having to implement anything; with Mark's suggestion however, Xfce would give you two System Settings until it was patched. Regards, Ambroz
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. ciao, Emmanuele. Regards, Ben -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sunday 24 July 2011, Ben Cooksley wrote: 2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. Yes, Ben is absolutely right here. It is used for setting up a whole lot of stuff like widget style, colors, printing, file associations etc. for application which link against KDE libraries, but can be run perfectly fine not only in Plasma, but also in other window managers/desktop environments. Alex
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings
At Sat, 23 Jul 2011 21:43:16 +0200, Lorenz Quack wrote: So how can this be resolved? … TLDR: For this release: GNOME back off For the next release: KDE and GNOME unify your settings infrastructure and pick non-generic names for your apps. Why can’t the Gnome System Settings simply be shown in KDE as “Gnome Systemsettings” and in KDE as “Systemsettings” - and the same the other way round. Put the other desktop as brand before the name; that even scales to an unlimited number of desktops using generic names, and I can tell new users, who are trying this “Linux-thing” for the first time to just open Systemsettings, without having to ask first, if they use Gnome, KDE or other desktop of choice. Generic names are good: they facilitate desktop switching and cross-desktop support. And a prefix for non-native applications in case of name clashes should not be too hard. Best wishes, Arne
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 21.00 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: 2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. Again, no. There is nothing you want to configure, running under GNOME, in KDE system settings. Qt apps, running under GNOME, should use Gtk+ style (already done by Qt), GNOME preferred apps and mime-type associations (already done by shared-mime-info), GNOME networking preferences (already done by NetworkManager and libproxy), GNOME fonts (already done by fontconfig). Everything else (desktop effects, hardware settings, date and time, users...) should not be configurable by KDE system settings, and will likely conflict if changed. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 22.37 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:25 PM, Giovanni Campagna scampa.giova...@gmail.com wrote: Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 21.00 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: 2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. Again, no. There is nothing you want to configure, running under GNOME, in KDE system settings. Qt apps, running under GNOME, should use Gtk+ style (already done by Qt), GNOME preferred apps and mime-type associations (already done by shared-mime-info), GNOME networking preferences (already done by NetworkManager and libproxy), GNOME fonts (already done by fontconfig). Everything else (desktop effects, hardware settings, date and time, users...) should not be configurable by KDE system settings, and will likely conflict if changed. Wrong, wrong and wrong. Phonon backend cannot be configured without System Settings. And that's a feature, I suppose. As a GNOME user, I want GStreamer at all times (and as a Fedora user, I can't even install xine). Standard keyboard shortcuts for KDE applications cannot be configured without System Settings. Which is a KDE bug. You should use GNOME shortcuts when possible. I mean, Gtk has emacs and Mac OS modes for keybindings, I doubt Qt hasn't something similar. We don't share Date/Time/Localisation/etc - you need System Settings for that. You don't have $LANG? or org.freedesktop.Accounts? Both are KDE bugs. Theme - we both have our own stores of it - you need System Settings again (in case you don't believe me, read ~/.gtk2rc) It is true that you can change KDE theme without changing the GTK one, but why would one want that? I want the look and feel of my system to be consistent, even when different apps or toolkits are used, and I want one place to configure the theme. (or none, if I'm using GNOME3 /rant) KDE Wallet has some of it's configuration stored in System Settings too - and it is used by KDE applications even outside KDE for secure password storage. KDE apps under GNOME should use gnome-keyring, not kwallet: that's what org.freedesktop.Secrets is for. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sunday 24 July 2011 17:55:54 Giovanni Campagna wrote: Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 22.37 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: Wrong, wrong and wrong. Phonon backend cannot be configured without System Settings. And that's a feature, I suppose. As a GNOME user, I want GStreamer at all times (and as a Fedora user, I can't even install xine). The Xine backend is not maintained anymore, so the choice is between the libvlc backend and gstreamer backend for most users, and many users actually prefer the libvlc backend (for many reasons, none of which are relevant here :-). I am not familiar with what additional restrictions your distro puts on you wrt. multimedia applications, so this might not be relevant to you, though. My two cent is that Gnome should rename it's configuration application to something that reflects what it is, instead of stealing the name from the KDE system configuration application. -- Martin Sandsmark
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Le 24/07/2011 12:55, Giovanni Campagna a écrit : Which is a KDE bug. You should use GNOME shortcuts when possible. I mean, Gtk has emacs and Mac OS modes for keybindings, I doubt Qt hasn't something similar. It is true that you can change KDE theme without changing the GTK one, but why would one want that? I want the look and feel of my system to be consistent, even when different apps or toolkits are used, and I want one place to configure the theme. (or none, if I'm using GNOME3 /rant) KDE apps under GNOME should use gnome-keyring, not kwallet: that's what org.freedesktop.Secrets is for. What about the other way around BTW? Do GNOME applications running on a KDE workspace follow KDE keybindings, theme, palette, fonts and icon theme? Do they use kwallet instead of gnome-keyring? If they don't I guess there is also a use for running GNOME System Settings on a KDE workspace. Aurélien
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Le 24 juil. 2011 14:35, Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org a écrit : Le 24/07/2011 12:55, Giovanni Campagna a écrit : Which is a KDE bug. You should use GNOME shortcuts when possible. I mean, Gtk has emacs and Mac OS modes for keybindings, I doubt Qt hasn't something similar. It is true that you can change KDE theme without changing the GTK one, but why would one want that? I want the look and feel of my system to be consistent, even when different apps or toolkits are used, and I want one place to configure the theme. (or none, if I'm using GNOME3 /rant) KDE apps under GNOME should use gnome-keyring, not kwallet: that's what org.freedesktop.Secrets is for. What about the other way around BTW? Do GNOME applications running on a KDE workspace follow KDE keybindings, theme, palette, fonts and icon theme? Do they use kwallet instead of gnome-keyring? If they don't I guess there is also a use for running GNOME System Settings on a KDE workspace. Well, I wrote xsettings-kde http://svn.mandriva.com/viewvc/soft/theme/xsettings-kde/ in 2007 which exports kde settings as xsettings and causes GNOME/GTK applications to follow KDE settings. Unfortunately, this code has never been integrated in KDE... -- Frédéric Crozat
Re: Go Daddy root certificates
On Jul 23, 2011, at 10:33 AM, Martin Koller wrote: Hi, can anyone answer the case https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=277319 , please ? -- Best regards/Schöne Grüße Martin A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q: Why is top posting bad? () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.bibibest.at Honestly, I really wish that Mozilla/KDE/Google/Wget/insert FOSS group that has their own root certificate store here would get together on fdo and create a common project that the root certificates could be aggregated at instead of each project doing it themselves... -- Gary L. Greene, Jr. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sunday 24 July 2011 Ben Cooksley wrote: Dropping GNOME out of this, as it seems quite clear they aren't interested in co-operating at all. Which is fairly typical for them, they're insular and only care for themselves. I don't want to let a statement like this stand as it is. There are a lot of people in the GNOME community who do want to cooperate. There certainly are also people who don't. That's the same in our community. Not everybody cares about cross-desktop collaboration, and this creates issues, as we have seen. Still, we should treat each other with respect. I understand that it makes you angry, if things break because of decisions outside your control, which you consider to be wrong. But being angry doesn't solve problems, especially not when communication about a common solution is required. There are a lot of technical things we can do to address this specific problem, taking settings from the platform, making configuration available in context, making KDE applications and frameworks more modular and less interdependent. Not everything can be done easily, but we should look for the right solutions and persue them. Additionally we need to talk about how to do integration across desktops. We should not be content with having insular desktops, neither on the GNOME side, nor on our side, nor anywhere else. This only limits us, how we are perceived, and what users think what they can do with KDE software. We aren't the monolithic desktop, which only runs KDE software, and which is required by all KDE applications. That's exactly the misconception we are trying to get rid of. So let's have a constructive conversation with GNOME and others how to share settings, how to integrate applications running on different workspaces independent of the toolkit they are implemented with. The desktop summit provides a great opportunity for that. But again, please act with respect for your own and other communities. Being aggressive doesn't help in finding good solutions for users, and it's really not the atmosphere, I'd like to see in KDE. -- Cornelius Schumacher schumac...@kde.org
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Still, we should treat each other with respect. [...] being angry doesn't solve problems, especially not when communication about a common solution is required. [...] Not everything can be done easily, but we should look for the right solutions and persue them. There is no established mechanism to rate mailing list posts, but i'd mod this one up. (:
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
KDE 4.7 will probably be shipped by distributions alongside GNOME 3.0. A short term solution is required at the bare minimum to fix that - which can be done as I noted. Where's the problem? Have the release tarballs already and irrevocably been forged and fed into some unstoppable mechanism? On 23/07/11 00:25, Shaun McCance wrote: Name=System Settings OnlyShowIn=KDE The other looks like this: Name=KDE System Settings NotShowIn=KDE Why not just SVN_SILENTly add these tree lines in the .desktop file and include in 4.7 gold? Two more days seem to give plenty time for that. Otherwise our users will be the ones who will suffer. I really doubt anyone is going to 'suffer'... This NamingClashCrisis is more ridiculous ego tussle then a real problem. For comparison, hunger crisis in Somalia is a real problem where people actually do suffer. #peace/marcel.
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings
The only point that I would like to add is that the 'System' part of
System Settings should be dropped since the settings listed there are
not for the system but for the DE('s).
Well it depends, Networking Bluetooth, Service startup are not DE('s) stuff
