Re: [Kicad-developers] [RFC] Remove counters from general section of pcbnew file

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Seppe,

I'm comfortable with discussing this change.  We are trying to remove
unnecessary board file stuff for improved VCS experience.  However, this
change is a board file format change and we are currently in feature
freeze so it will have to wait until after the v5 stable release.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 4/24/2018 5:35 AM, Seppe Stas wrote:
> I would like to remove the counters of the general section in the KiCAD
> PCBNew's file format. By counters I mean the
> links, no_connects, drawings, tracks, zones, modules and nets elements
> in the general section. E.g:
> 
> (general
>     *(links 280)*
>     *(no_connects 0)*
>     (area 29.89 29.89 225.11 106.61)
>     (thickness 1.6)
>     *(drawings 67)*
>     *(tracks 987)*
>     *(zones 0)*
> *    (modules 108)*
> *    (nets 81)*
>   )
> 
> When checking PCB designs into a SCM these counters make it virtually
> impossible to handle merges, since they pretty much always cause merge
> conflicts. Even if someone commits a small fix on the other side of the
> board another person is working on, this fix could (and typically does)
> cause one of the counters to change, resulting in a merge conflict. The
> only ways to fix the conflict is manually calculating the new values for
> the conflicting counters or re-doing the fix. Both methods are a pain
> for people not that familiar with the SCM (most people).
> 
> These counters are also redundant, potentially causing inconsistency
> because of potential bugs in PCBNew or by altering the PCB file manual
> (something I often end up doing due to limitations of PCBNew) or using
> third-party tools like my company's tooling
>  (again, to cope with
> limitations in PCBNew).
> 
> By looking into the code I found that only the "nets" and "no_connects"
> counters are actually parsed by PCBNew, the others are ignored (see
> pcb_parser:cpp:~600). The netlist counter is only used to set an initial
> size for the `m_netCodes` map. When finding new netlists this map is
> resized, so it should work (inefficiently) without it. Setting a big
> enough value or resizing using grow algorithm
>  (a bit more memory
> intensive) or counting the nets in the file (more io intensive) would
> make it more performant.
> 
> The amount of unconnected nets can just be calculated by building the
> board's ratsnest (PCB_BASE_FRAME::Build_Board_Ratsnest) after parsing it.
> 
> I would like to commit a patch for this, but I would like to discuss how
> backwards compatibility could be handled first.
> 
> Greeting
> Seppe Stas
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Differential pairs dimensions

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Jon,

Sorry for the late response but this proposal looks fine to me.  Of
course the devil will be in the details.  One thing I want to try after
v5 is released is to use launchpad blueprints to track road map items.
Blueprints can be linked to a release version so they can be tracked and
marked as complete like bug reports.  One nice feature of blueprints is
that you can just provide a link to an external document rather than use
launchpads limited editing capabilities.  I think in the long run it
will be a better solution than trying to keep the road map documents up
to date.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 4/14/2018 11:53 AM, Jon Evans wrote:
> I started typing up some of my thoughts on this into a proposal:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qvCH9aHwCzp5qtKTna4jJXuloNU0b96gAxAHSKPuXpU/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> (anyone with the link can comment on but not edit the document)
> 
> I haven't gotten very far but I thought I would throw it out here for
> early review/feedback.
> I think if we can agree on some of the basics, we can work towards it
> incrementally.
> I think it wouldn't be too hard to come up with a spec for rule storage
> that could both capture the current possible rules in KiCad 5, and also
> the new things we want to make available in 6.
> 
> -Jon
> 
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> On 04/14/2018 10:46 AM, Jeff Young wrote:
> > I still don’t think I’d put netclass dimensions in the schematic.
> >  However, I do completely agree with putting the netclass *set* (and net
> > membership) in the schematic.
> 
> I see netclasses as just another constraint.  I use the same netclasses
> over and over again in my projects so having a way to make them easily
> shareable between projects would be useful to me.  I'm not sure a
> separate method to handle netclasses versus all other constraints makes
> sense.  I do agree that it should be possible to defined them in the
> schematic editor.  I would think a properly designed constraint editor
> would work equally well in both the schematic and board editors as well
> as stand alone.  Given what I have learned about the board file design,
> saving the netclasses and other constraints in the schematic file
> doesn't make sense.  This will need to be defined before I can begin
> writing the new schematic file format.
> 
> > 
> > For that kind of stuff we could start leaning more heavily on the
> > project file, or we could use inter-app communication as we do for the
> > netlist.
> 
> I would consider inter-app communication a given regardless of where we
> store this information.  What form the inter-app communication takes is
> certainly open for discussion.  It could be using our kiway messaging or
> it could be a file watcher that updates the constraints when the
> constraint file is edited.
> 
> > 
> > From first blush I’d prefer the later (as it makes stand-alone files
> > more viable).  But, like I said, first blush….
> > 
> > 
> >> On 14 Apr 2018, at 15:37, Jon Evans  
> >> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> It's also a somewhat common workflow for design rules to be driven
> >> from the schematic (rather than created as part of board layout).
> >> Having a separate file for design rules isn't the only way to do that,
> >> but I just wanted to mention that use case so that it is also
> >> considered. In that workflow, you need a way to define design rules
> >> before there is even a PCB design started. 
> >>
> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 10:29 Wayne Stambaugh  
> >> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>     It makes sense to me to have importing and exporting constraints
> >>     as part
> >>     of the design.  I would also add copying a default constraints 
> file as
> >>     part of the new project and new project by template commands.  I 
> think
> >>     that pretty much covers all of the bases.
> >>
> >>     On 04/14/2018 10:23 AM, Jeff Young wrote:
> >>     > Good point.  A lot of the constraints are defined by the fab
> >>     house rather than the particular board design.
> >>     >
> >>     > FrameMaker had a “Use Formats From” feature which imported page
> >>     layouts, paragraph formats, variable definitions, etc. from
> >>     another document.  Our customers liked that a lot better than
> >>     having to manage yet another file.
> >>     >
> >>     >> On 14 Apr 2018, at 15:14, Wayne Stambaugh  
> >>     >>
> wrote:
> >>     >>
> >> 

Re: [Kicad-developers] SPICE and multi-unit parts

[Jeff Young]

Cool; yet another reason to update all other unit fields when one is edited.

On the last tube design I did I only modelled the heater resistance so it would 
put a load on my heater power supply.  But that was in LTSpice; I’ve yet to try 
out the Kicad integration.

Cheers,
Jeff.


> On 25 Apr 2018, at 19:44, Maciej Suminski  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Spice netlist exporter outputs a single line for each part (including
> multi-unit ones), meaning you have 1:1 part to model relation. I have
> not checked, but I suppose that in case of divergent field values for
> each unit, the first unit has the priority.
> 
> Speaking of tubes, I have never seen heater models for Spice. Normally
> it is assumed that you have your devices warm and glowing, but perhaps
> there are exceptions.
> 
> Cheers,
> Orson
> 
> On 04/25/2018 06:11 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
>> Hi Orson,
>> 
>> How does the SPICE integration work with multi-unit parts?  If I have a 
>> valve with two triode units and a heater unit, do I have a single SPICE 
>> model, or are the heaters modelled separately from the triodes (or perhaps 
>> even not at all)?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jeff.
>> 


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Might want to check recent fixes....

[Maciej Suminski]

I have also noticed this. For some strange reason, Janitor does not
always mark bugs as fixed, even though the logs show that it had
processed all commits. I added some extra debug information, hopefully
it will help me find the problem. IIRC it used to work flawlessly for a
long time and I have no idea what has changed. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Cheers,
Orson

On 04/25/2018 05:59 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
> I had the Janitor fail on a particular bug fix and did a search and found 2 
> more I had recently fixed that it hadn’t set to “fix committed”.
> 
> Anyway, just a heads-up in case anyone else has recent fixes that didn’t get 
> closed….
> 
> Cheers,
> Jeff.
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] SPICE and multi-unit parts

[Maciej Suminski]

Hi Jeff,

Spice netlist exporter outputs a single line for each part (including
multi-unit ones), meaning you have 1:1 part to model relation. I have
not checked, but I suppose that in case of divergent field values for
each unit, the first unit has the priority.

Speaking of tubes, I have never seen heater models for Spice. Normally
it is assumed that you have your devices warm and glowing, but perhaps
there are exceptions.

Cheers,
Orson

On 04/25/2018 06:11 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
> Hi Orson,
> 
> How does the SPICE integration work with multi-unit parts?  If I have a valve 
> with two triode units and a heater unit, do I have a single SPICE model, or 
> are the heaters modelled separately from the triodes (or perhaps even not at 
> all)?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jeff.
> 

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[Kicad-developers] SPICE and multi-unit parts

[Jeff Young]

Hi Orson,

How does the SPICE integration work with multi-unit parts?  If I have a valve 
with two triode units and a heater unit, do I have a single SPICE model, or are 
the heaters modelled separately from the triodes (or perhaps even not at all)?

Thanks,
Jeff.
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[Kicad-developers] Might want to check recent fixes....

[Jeff Young]

I had the Janitor fail on a particular bug fix and did a search and found 2 
more I had recently fixed that it hadn’t set to “fix committed”.

Anyway, just a heads-up in case anyone else has recent fixes that didn’t get 
closed….

Cheers,
Jeff.


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Track & via clearances only in Legacy...

[Nick Østergaard]

I didn't test this, as I have been busy and just trying to keep up with the
bug and mails.

Den ons. 25. apr. 2018 11.02 skrev Jeff Young :

> @Orson & @Nick,
>
> Do you see the clearances /while/ routing?  The “always” setting does work
> on Mac, it’s just the 3 middle ones for “during routing” and “during
> routing and editing” that don’t on a Mac GAL canvas.
>
>
> On 25 Apr 2018, at 07:43, Nick Østergaard  wrote:
>
> Just a wild guess here; maybe it has something to do with a hidpi screen
> which I assume Jeff is using and the line thickness used for the drawing?
>
> 2018-04-25 8:32 GMT+02:00 Maciej Sumiński :
>
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> Are these options broken on macOS? I see clearance lines displayed for
>> all items (pads, tracks, vias) in GAL.
>>
>> example: https://imgur.com/a/LtFtWgR
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Orson
>>
>> On 04/24/2018 08:50 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
>> > I just discovered that “Show track clearances” and “Show track
>> clearances with via area” settings only work in the Legacy router.  We have
>> a Legacy Router Options area in the general preferences dialog where the
>> options could be moved to (they’re currently in Display Options).
>> >
>> > Personally, I’d let this sleeping dog lie for 5.0, but I thought I’d
>> bring it to peoples' attention.  (I’m happy to make the changes if people
>> think we should for 5.0.)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Track & via clearances only in Legacy...

[Jeff Young]

> apparently my morning coffee had not yet kicked in

He he… been there. ;)

Logged:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1766836 



> On 25 Apr 2018, at 10:10, Maciej Sumiński  wrote:
> 
> You are right, apparently my morning coffee had not yet kicked in when I
> was reading your message. Indeed, it does not work and deserves a bug
> report.
> 
> Cheers,
> Orson
> 
> On 04/25/2018 11:02 AM, Jeff Young wrote:
>> @Orson & @Nick,
>> 
>> Do you see the clearances /while/ routing?  The “always” setting does work 
>> on Mac, it’s just the 3 middle ones for “during routing” and “during routing 
>> and editing” that don’t on a Mac GAL canvas.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 25 Apr 2018, at 07:43, Nick Østergaard  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just a wild guess here; maybe it has something to do with a hidpi screen 
>>> which I assume Jeff is using and the line thickness used for the drawing?
>>> 
>>> 2018-04-25 8:32 GMT+02:00 Maciej Sumiński >> >:
>>> Hi Jeff,
>>> 
>>> Are these options broken on macOS? I see clearance lines displayed for
>>> all items (pads, tracks, vias) in GAL.
>>> 
>>> example: https://imgur.com/a/LtFtWgR 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Orson
>>> 
>>> On 04/24/2018 08:50 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
 I just discovered that “Show track clearances” and “Show track clearances 
 with via area” settings only work in the Legacy router.  We have a Legacy 
 Router Options area in the general preferences dialog where the options 
 could be moved to (they’re currently in Display Options).
 
 Personally, I’d let this sleeping dog lie for 5.0, but I thought I’d bring 
 it to peoples' attention.  (I’m happy to make the changes if people think 
 we should for 5.0.)
 
 
 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Track & via clearances only in Legacy...

[Maciej Sumiński]

You are right, apparently my morning coffee had not yet kicked in when I
was reading your message. Indeed, it does not work and deserves a bug
report.

Cheers,
Orson

On 04/25/2018 11:02 AM, Jeff Young wrote:
> @Orson & @Nick,
> 
> Do you see the clearances /while/ routing?  The “always” setting does work on 
> Mac, it’s just the 3 middle ones for “during routing” and “during routing and 
> editing” that don’t on a Mac GAL canvas.
> 
> 
>> On 25 Apr 2018, at 07:43, Nick Østergaard  wrote:
>>
>> Just a wild guess here; maybe it has something to do with a hidpi screen 
>> which I assume Jeff is using and the line thickness used for the drawing?
>>
>> 2018-04-25 8:32 GMT+02:00 Maciej Sumiński > >:
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> Are these options broken on macOS? I see clearance lines displayed for
>> all items (pads, tracks, vias) in GAL.
>>
>> example: https://imgur.com/a/LtFtWgR 
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Orson
>>
>> On 04/24/2018 08:50 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
>>> I just discovered that “Show track clearances” and “Show track clearances 
>>> with via area” settings only work in the Legacy router.  We have a Legacy 
>>> Router Options area in the general preferences dialog where the options 
>>> could be moved to (they’re currently in Display Options).
>>>
>>> Personally, I’d let this sleeping dog lie for 5.0, but I thought I’d bring 
>>> it to peoples' attention.  (I’m happy to make the changes if people think 
>>> we should for 5.0.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Track & via clearances only in Legacy...

[Jeff Young]

@Orson & @Nick,

Do you see the clearances /while/ routing?  The “always” setting does work on 
Mac, it’s just the 3 middle ones for “during routing” and “during routing and 
editing” that don’t on a Mac GAL canvas.


> On 25 Apr 2018, at 07:43, Nick Østergaard  wrote:
> 
> Just a wild guess here; maybe it has something to do with a hidpi screen 
> which I assume Jeff is using and the line thickness used for the drawing?
> 
> 2018-04-25 8:32 GMT+02:00 Maciej Sumiński  >:
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Are these options broken on macOS? I see clearance lines displayed for
> all items (pads, tracks, vias) in GAL.
> 
> example: https://imgur.com/a/LtFtWgR 
> 
> Cheers,
> Orson
> 
> On 04/24/2018 08:50 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
> > I just discovered that “Show track clearances” and “Show track clearances 
> > with via area” settings only work in the Legacy router.  We have a Legacy 
> > Router Options area in the general preferences dialog where the options 
> > could be moved to (they’re currently in Display Options).
> > 
> > Personally, I’d let this sleeping dog lie for 5.0, but I thought I’d bring 
> > it to peoples' attention.  (I’m happy to make the changes if people think 
> > we should for 5.0.)
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Track & via clearances only in Legacy...

[Nick Østergaard]

Just a wild guess here; maybe it has something to do with a hidpi screen
which I assume Jeff is using and the line thickness used for the drawing?

2018-04-25 8:32 GMT+02:00 Maciej Sumiński :

> Hi Jeff,
>
> Are these options broken on macOS? I see clearance lines displayed for
> all items (pads, tracks, vias) in GAL.
>
> example: https://imgur.com/a/LtFtWgR
>
> Cheers,
> Orson
>
> On 04/24/2018 08:50 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
> > I just discovered that “Show track clearances” and “Show track
> clearances with via area” settings only work in the Legacy router.  We have
> a Legacy Router Options area in the general preferences dialog where the
> options could be moved to (they’re currently in Display Options).
> >
> > Personally, I’d let this sleeping dog lie for 5.0, but I thought I’d
> bring it to peoples' attention.  (I’m happy to make the changes if people
> think we should for 5.0.)
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Track & via clearances only in Legacy...

[Maciej Sumiński]

Hi Jeff,

Are these options broken on macOS? I see clearance lines displayed for
all items (pads, tracks, vias) in GAL.

example: https://imgur.com/a/LtFtWgR

Cheers,
Orson

On 04/24/2018 08:50 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
> I just discovered that “Show track clearances” and “Show track clearances 
> with via area” settings only work in the Legacy router.  We have a Legacy 
> Router Options area in the general preferences dialog where the options could 
> be moved to (they’re currently in Display Options).
> 
> Personally, I’d let this sleeping dog lie for 5.0, but I thought I’d bring it 
> to peoples' attention.  (I’m happy to make the changes if people think we 
> should for 5.0.)
> 
> 
> 
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