Re: [Kicad-developers] A consistent name for the Aux Origin?

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Unless we can figure out how to set the grid origin using a single
origin, I don't see how we can get rid of it.  One thing we have done a
poor job of is providing an easy way to clear the grid origin.  I would
like to see a reset grid origin menu entry.

On 5/18/19 2:22 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
> I agree that we want one movable origin, but I don’t think we need two.
>  The local origin should work fine for placing components relative to
> each other, routing, etc.
> 
>> On 18 May 2019, at 18:59, Reece R. Pollack > > wrote:
>>
>> Once you establish a base coordinate origin, you really don't want
>> that moving. All the mechanical holes, notches, connectors, switches,
>> clearances, and other locations are measured from that origin. Moving
>> during layout risks placing a component in the wrong spot.
>>
>> The movable grid origin is extremely useful for placing components or
>> routing tracks relative to each other. It's a feature I suspect many
>> people use and depend on. And no, you don't want to move the base
>> origin for this and then hope you move it back to exactly the same
>> spot later.
>>
>> The "local origin", the one you set with the space-bar, is handy for
>> measuring distances without needing to use a measuring tool. The "Move
>> Exactly" dialog uses this to good effect to allow rotation about a
>> spot, though one might argue that the grid origin could easily be used
>> for this.
>>
>> I'm just finishing up a set of patches that allows the user the option
>> to see all coordinates displayed relative to the Aux Origin or the
>> Grid Origin. The only real complexity in this is the need to pass a
>> reference to the transformation class down to all the places its
>> needed, just as you had to pass the user's units choice to those same
>> places when you removed g_UserUnit last year. This keeps all the
>> transformations from the internal origin to a display origin and back
>> in one place. With this in place, doing things like allowing the user
>> to choose to make the Y-axis increase UP rather than DOWN is trivial
>> (which I've already done).
>>
>> The origin that is utterly useless at present is the page origin
>> somewhere near the upper left corner of the paper drawing frame
>> surrounding the board layout. If you could lay out a board so the page
>> origin was usefully related to the board's dimensions this would be
>> okay, but right now you end up with the paper page's "frame"
>> overlaying your board. Get rid of the frame and everything else
>> associated with the layout being a paper drawing rather than a digital
>> model of the PCB, and we don't need the Aux Origin.
>>
>> -Reece
>>
>> On 5/18/19 1:17 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
>>> Hi Eeli,
>>>
>>> I’d argue that you explained what it was useful for, not why it is
>>> “needed”.  I can understand offsetting the grid; I can’t say I
>>> believe it’s important enough to support the code and UI complexity
>>> that it brings.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jeff.
>>>
>>>
 On 18 May 2019, at 14:12, Eeli Kaikkonen >>> > wrote:



 la 18. toukok. 2019 klo 13.38 Jeff Young (j...@rokeby.ie
 ) kirjoitti:

 We need fewer origins.

 I like the name Coordinates Origin, but why do we then need a
 Grid Origin?  And why a setting for the displayed coordinates? 
 Shouldn’t that always be the Coordinates Origin?

 Cheers,
 Jeff.


 I think this was already discussed in
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1773638 and I explained why
 distinct Grid Origin is needed.

 Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] A consistent name for the Aux Origin?

[Jeff Young]

I agree that we want one movable origin, but I don’t think we need two.  The 
local origin should work fine for placing components relative to each other, 
routing, etc.

> On 18 May 2019, at 18:59, Reece R. Pollack  wrote:
> 
> Once you establish a base coordinate origin, you really don't want that 
> moving. All the mechanical holes, notches, connectors, switches, clearances, 
> and other locations are measured from that origin. Moving during layout risks 
> placing a component in the wrong spot. 
> 
> The movable grid origin is extremely useful for placing components or routing 
> tracks relative to each other. It's a feature I suspect many people use and 
> depend on. And no, you don't want to move the base origin for this and then 
> hope you move it back to exactly the same spot later.
> 
> The "local origin", the one you set with the space-bar, is handy for 
> measuring distances without needing to use a measuring tool. The "Move 
> Exactly" dialog uses this to good effect to allow rotation about a spot, 
> though one might argue that the grid origin could easily be used for this.
> 
> I'm just finishing up a set of patches that allows the user the option to see 
> all coordinates displayed relative to the Aux Origin or the Grid Origin. The 
> only real complexity in this is the need to pass a reference to the 
> transformation class down to all the places its needed, just as you had to 
> pass the user's units choice to those same places when you removed g_UserUnit 
> last year. This keeps all the transformations from the internal origin to a 
> display origin and back in one place. With this in place, doing things like 
> allowing the user to choose to make the Y-axis increase UP rather than DOWN 
> is trivial (which I've already done).
> 
> The origin that is utterly useless at present is the page origin somewhere 
> near the upper left corner of the paper drawing frame surrounding the board 
> layout. If you could lay out a board so the page origin was usefully related 
> to the board's dimensions this would be okay, but right now you end up with 
> the paper page's "frame" overlaying your board. Get rid of the frame and 
> everything else associated with the layout being a paper drawing rather than 
> a digital model of the PCB, and we don't need the Aux Origin.
> 
> -Reece
> 
> On 5/18/19 1:17 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
>> Hi Eeli,
>> 
>> I’d argue that you explained what it was useful for, not why it is “needed”. 
>>  I can understand offsetting the grid; I can’t say I believe it’s important 
>> enough to support the code and UI complexity that it brings.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Jeff.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 18 May 2019, at 14:12, Eeli Kaikkonen >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> la 18. toukok. 2019 klo 13.38 Jeff Young (j...@rokeby.ie 
>>> ) kirjoitti:
>>> We need fewer origins.
>>> 
>>> I like the name Coordinates Origin, but why do we then need a Grid Origin?  
>>> And why a setting for the displayed coordinates?  Shouldn’t that always be 
>>> the Coordinates Origin?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jeff.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I think this was already discussed in 
>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1773638 
>>>  and I explained why 
>>> distinct Grid Origin is needed.
>>> 
>>> Eeli Kaikkonen
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] A consistent name for the Aux Origin?

[Reece R. Pollack]

Once you establish a base coordinate origin, you really don't want that 
moving. All the mechanical holes, notches, connectors, switches, 
clearances, and other locations are measured from that origin. Moving 
during layout risks placing a component in the wrong spot.


The movable grid origin is extremely useful for placing components or 
routing tracks relative to each other. It's a feature I suspect many 
people use and depend on. And no, you don't want to move the base origin 
for this and then hope you move it back to exactly the same spot later.


The "local origin", the one you set with the space-bar, is handy for 
measuring distances without needing to use a measuring tool. The "Move 
Exactly" dialog uses this to good effect to allow rotation about a spot, 
though one might argue that the grid origin could easily be used for this.


I'm just finishing up a set of patches that allows the user the option 
to see all coordinates displayed relative to the Aux Origin or the Grid 
Origin. The only real complexity in this is the need to pass a reference 
to the transformation class down to all the places its needed, just as 
you had to pass the user's units choice to those same places when you 
removed g_UserUnit last year. This keeps all the transformations from 
the internal origin to a display origin and back in one place. With this 
in place, doing things like allowing the user to choose to make the 
Y-axis increase UP rather than DOWN is trivial (which I've already done).


The origin that is utterly useless at present is the page origin 
somewhere near the upper left corner of the paper drawing frame 
surrounding the board layout. If you could lay out a board so the page 
origin was usefully related to the board's dimensions this would be 
okay, but right now you end up with the paper page's "frame" overlaying 
your board. Get rid of the frame and everything else associated with the 
layout being a paper drawing rather than a digital model of the PCB, and 
we don't need the Aux Origin.


-Reece

On 5/18/19 1:17 PM, Jeff Young wrote:

Hi Eeli,

I’d argue that you explained what it was useful for, not why it is 
“needed”.  I can understand offsetting the grid; I can’t say I believe 
it’s important enough to support the code and UI complexity that it 
brings.


Cheers,
Jeff.


On 18 May 2019, at 14:12, Eeli Kaikkonen > wrote:




la 18. toukok. 2019 klo 13.38 Jeff Young (j...@rokeby.ie 
) kirjoitti:


We need fewer origins.

I like the name Coordinates Origin, but why do we then need a
Grid Origin?  And why a setting for the displayed coordinates? 
Shouldn’t that always be the Coordinates Origin?

Cheers,
Jeff.


I think this was already discussed in 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1773638 and I explained why 
distinct Grid Origin is needed.


Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] A consistent name for the Aux Origin?

[Jeff Young]

Hi Eeli,

I’d argue that you explained what it was useful for, not why it is “needed”.  I 
can understand offsetting the grid; I can’t say I believe it’s important enough 
to support the code and UI complexity that it brings.

Cheers,
Jeff.


> On 18 May 2019, at 14:12, Eeli Kaikkonen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> la 18. toukok. 2019 klo 13.38 Jeff Young (j...@rokeby.ie 
> ) kirjoitti:
> We need fewer origins.
> 
> I like the name Coordinates Origin, but why do we then need a Grid Origin?  
> And why a setting for the displayed coordinates?  Shouldn’t that always be 
> the Coordinates Origin?
> 
> Cheers,
> Jeff.
> 
> 
> I think this was already discussed in 
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1773638 
>  and I explained why distinct 
> Grid Origin is needed.
> 
> Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Kicad's way of drawing filled zones

[Seth Hillbrand]

Am 2019-05-18 08:13, schrieb Tomasz Wlostowski:

On 13/05/2019 12:58, jp charras wrote:

Perhaps also adding a parameter like (circle_optimization [low, 
normal,

high] to optimize shapes with arc/circle items (perhaps useful in
microwave applications)


I'm OK with it. Seth?


Yes.  Since the circle approximation affects the board contents, we 
store a parameter for that in the board file.  I am working on 
implementing it as a board-level setting for maximum absolute error.  
This will replace the zone-specific setting of segments per circle.


-Seth

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Re: [Kicad-developers] A consistent name for the Aux Origin?

[Eeli Kaikkonen]

la 18. toukok. 2019 klo 13.38 Jeff Young (j...@rokeby.ie) kirjoitti:

> We need fewer origins.
>
> I like the name Coordinates Origin, but why do we then need a Grid
> Origin?  And why a setting for the displayed coordinates?  Shouldn’t that
> always be the Coordinates Origin?
>
> Cheers,
> Jeff.
>
>
I think this was already discussed in
https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1773638 and I explained why distinct
Grid Origin is needed.

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] A consistent name for the Aux Origin?

[Brian]

Comments from the peanut gallery:

“Coordinates Origin” sounds clunky and feels redundant. Coordinates are always 
relative to some origin. I like “Grid Origin” if it’s a choice between the two 
names. Displayed coordinates and a displayed grid should always agree on (0, 0) 
IMHO, so there’s no need for two separate origins for those.

Two user-positionable origins are enough. Here’s an idea: One “Design Origin” 
for the grid (and related cursor, placement, etc coordinates), and one “CAM 
Origin” (if it needs to be different from the Design Origin) to govern the 
Gerber output.

$0.02,
-Brian

> On May 18, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Jeff Young  wrote:
> 
> We need fewer origins.
> 
> I like the name Coordinates Origin, but why do we then need a Grid Origin?  
> And why a setting for the displayed coordinates?  Shouldn’t that always be 
> the Coordinates Origin?
> 
> Cheers,
> Jeff.
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Kicad's way of drawing filled zones

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 13/05/2019 12:58, jp charras wrote:
> If we are talking about V6.0 version, we should add zone property field
> in the file format like (outline_thickness 0.0) to avoid serious issues
> (generating broken boards for fabrication).
> 

Hi JP,

Are you going to work on this (commit code)?

> Perhaps also adding a parameter like (circle_optimization [low, normal,
> high] to optimize shapes with arc/circle items (perhaps useful in
> microwave applications)

I'm OK with it. Seth?

> 
> I am not a specialist of Hyperlynx and other similar tools, but i am
> guessing it is not the only one tool that does not handle thick outlines
> in polygons.

IIRC Altium and Cadence store filled zones as borderless polygons.

Tom


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Removing segment hard-coding

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 16/05/2019 20:44, Jon Evans wrote:
> I can think of at least two alternatives:
> 
> 1) automatic performance tuning based on self-benchmarking
> 
> 2) a "graphics performance" setting (high/medium/low) that changes
> multiple things under the hood.

Hi Jon,

I'm afraid this would be difficult to achieve without breaking the
WYSIWYG principle - board geometry should look exactly the same as in
the Gerber files (so IMHO we shouldn't allow for tweaking the number of
arc approx segments for display purposes only).

Cheers,
Tom

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Re: [Kicad-developers] A consistent name for the Aux Origin?

[Clemens Koller]

Hello, Jeff!

On 18/05/2019 12.37, Jeff Young wrote:
> We need fewer origins.

I agree.

> I like the name Coordinates Origin, but why do we then need a Grid Origin?  
> And why a setting for the displayed coordinates?  Shouldn’t that always be 
> the Coordinates Origin?

My imagination of the Layout world: I would welcome a "Physical Design Origin" 
or short "Origin". If I place my board edge (or a component or something else) 
at the Origin (0,0) then I would expect that it also gets output at the Gerber 
at (0,0) as well as all other output files.

Additionally, during the layout/placement process, there could be an additional 
"Auxiliary Grid" to aid in the placement of elements by snapping to it.
(Example: Placing thousands of LEDs in a backlight panel.) This grid could be 
an odd spaced cartesian or polar (or other?) coordinate system with a Grid 
Offset relative to the Physical Origin. This Aux Grid settings should also be 
saved to the design but not affect the physical design itself.

The Visible Grid could or should visualize the Aux Grid if it's set. There 
might be cases where more than one Aux Grid/Visible Grid might come in handy.
In the future, when we think about multi PCB designs, there might be more than 
one Physical Design Origin as well as multiple Aux Grids in a project.

---
OT: A different thing is the manufacturing files / output file generation (i.e. 
Gerber) where it might be nice/mandatory to add additional offsets or step & 
repeat parameters (also polar coorrdinates would be great, or a whole transform 
matrix). These settings might also be saved in the design, but used only for 
the corresponding manufacturing output.

Just my five Cents,

Clemens

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Re: [Kicad-developers] A consistent name for the Aux Origin?

[Jeff Young]

We need fewer origins.

I like the name Coordinates Origin, but why do we then need a Grid Origin?  And 
why a setting for the displayed coordinates?  Shouldn’t that always be the 
Coordinates Origin?

Cheers,
Jeff.


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