Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Kliment (Future Bits)]

On 02.12.19 22:25, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> On 02/12/2019 21:51, Kliment (Future Bits) wrote:
>> The video looks very much like to me like the trace is following a
>> voronoi cell boundary with cells coming out from each obstacle outline
>> vertex. But what do I know? Maybe I'm just imagining things.
> 
> Maybe you're right ;-) I admire your ability to figure out the inner
> workings of a complex algorithm just by looking at a video of it working...

Heh, it's very possible it's doing something else behind the scenes but
I have done things with expanding boundary defined paths before (in an
unrelated field) and that's the kind of shapes they generate. Certainly
enough topology in there to give the altium marketing team something to
bite onto.

> 
> In any case, such discussions are not very helpful nor encouraging for
> the devs (I spent quite a lot of my time on KiCad router) and I'd rather
> work on improving our own P&S instead of arguing what's topology ;-)

Agreed, I was just trying to rescue a thread that had veered so far off
the road that it entered a field and hit a spherical cow.

> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 03/12/2019 02:43, Mark Roszko wrote:
> Just throw in a linear regression somewhere and we can say KiCad has
> AI based routing ;)
> 

Our GAL does a lot of matrix multiplications. We could perhaps advertise
KiCad as the first EDA tool with a Deep Learning Techniques-based
rendering engine ;-).

T.

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Mark Roszko]

Just throw in a linear regression somewhere and we can say KiCad has
AI based routing ;)

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 4:25 PM Tomasz Wlostowski
 wrote:
>
> On 02/12/2019 21:51, Kliment (Future Bits) wrote:
> > The video looks very much like to me like the trace is following a
> > voronoi cell boundary with cells coming out from each obstacle outline
> > vertex. But what do I know? Maybe I'm just imagining things.
>
> Maybe you're right ;-) I admire your ability to figure out the inner
> workings of a complex algorithm just by looking at a video of it working...
>
> In any case, such discussions are not very helpful nor encouraging for
> the devs (I spent quite a lot of my time on KiCad router) and I'd rather
> work on improving our own P&S instead of arguing what's topology ;-)
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Mark

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 02/12/2019 21:51, Kliment (Future Bits) wrote:
> The video looks very much like to me like the trace is following a
> voronoi cell boundary with cells coming out from each obstacle outline
> vertex. But what do I know? Maybe I'm just imagining things.

Maybe you're right ;-) I admire your ability to figure out the inner
workings of a complex algorithm just by looking at a video of it working...

In any case, such discussions are not very helpful nor encouraging for
the devs (I spent quite a lot of my time on KiCad router) and I'd rather
work on improving our own P&S instead of arguing what's topology ;-)

Tom




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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Jon Evans]

I installed AD20 to play around a bit.  The new any-angle mode so far works
as advertised, it is quite smooth and responsive.  The video may be
pre-planned but I don't think it's heavily edited.  The router seems to
update the proposed path at every grid step, so if you set a small grid the
updates look relatively fluid.

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 3:52 PM Kliment (Future Bits) 
wrote:

> On 02.12.19 21:37, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
>
> > All of this is true - for autorouters. This whole thread started with
> > Altium's videos about the improvements to their interactive
> > (semi-manual) router. P&S actually use very few strictly topological
> > concepts (in the case of Kicad P&S, mainly in the optimizer part of the
> > code)...
>
> The video looks very much like to me like the trace is following a
> voronoi cell boundary with cells coming out from each obstacle outline
> vertex. But what do I know? Maybe I'm just imagining things.
>
> >
> > BTW, I'm surprised by the smoothness of the animation in A***m's
> > promotional videos. Did they use some editing/postprocessing to make
> > them look this way? :D
>
> I suspect the interaction is scripted and slightly sped up (just from
> looking at the speed of mouse movements and menu interactions in the
> other videos. That said they do advertise their newly sped up
> accelerated graphics stuff, so maybe it is that smooth.
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Kliment (Future Bits)]

On 02.12.19 21:37, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:

> All of this is true - for autorouters. This whole thread started with
> Altium's videos about the improvements to their interactive
> (semi-manual) router. P&S actually use very few strictly topological
> concepts (in the case of Kicad P&S, mainly in the optimizer part of the
> code)...

The video looks very much like to me like the trace is following a
voronoi cell boundary with cells coming out from each obstacle outline
vertex. But what do I know? Maybe I'm just imagining things.

> 
> BTW, I'm surprised by the smoothness of the animation in A***m's
> promotional videos. Did they use some editing/postprocessing to make
> them look this way? :D

I suspect the interaction is scripted and slightly sped up (just from
looking at the speed of mouse movements and menu interactions in the
other videos. That said they do advertise their newly sped up
accelerated graphics stuff, so maybe it is that smooth.

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 02/12/2019 19:15, Kliment (Future Bits) wrote:
> Ignoring the bovine references and attempting to answer the question:
> 
> Topological routing means using the connectivity graph of the system to
> generate geometrical constraints, and also to generate specific geometry
> for say traces or polygons. It's called that because it uses concepts
> from the discipline of topology such as Delauney triangulations,
> neighbourhood graphs, Voronoi diagrams, straight skeletons, etc. It
> means you can, for instance, make a set of traces that follow a path
> maximally distant from each obstacle, giving you maximum routing space
> around each trace. A number of autorouting algorithms are based on
> topological concepts, in this case however it specifically refers to
> generating trace shapes such that they have the maximum distance from
> each obstacle at each point along their path, as opposed to being
> constrained to straight line segments.

Kliment & Vesa,

All of this is true - for autorouters. This whole thread started with
Altium's videos about the improvements to their interactive
(semi-manual) router. P&S actually use very few strictly topological
concepts (in the case of Kicad P&S, mainly in the optimizer part of the
code)...

BTW, I'm surprised by the smoothness of the animation in A***m's
promotional videos. Did they use some editing/postprocessing to make
them look this way? :D

Tom


> 
> Hope this is helpful.
> 
> On 02.12.19 17:59, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
>> On 02/12/2019 17:40, Vesa Solonen wrote:
>>> topological routing will
>>
>> Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
>> than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what exactly
>> it has to do with topology [1]?
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Kliment (Future Bits)]

Ignoring the bovine references and attempting to answer the question:

Topological routing means using the connectivity graph of the system to
generate geometrical constraints, and also to generate specific geometry
for say traces or polygons. It's called that because it uses concepts
from the discipline of topology such as Delauney triangulations,
neighbourhood graphs, Voronoi diagrams, straight skeletons, etc. It
means you can, for instance, make a set of traces that follow a path
maximally distant from each obstacle, giving you maximum routing space
around each trace. A number of autorouting algorithms are based on
topological concepts, in this case however it specifically refers to
generating trace shapes such that they have the maximum distance from
each obstacle at each point along their path, as opposed to being
constrained to straight line segments.

Hope this is helpful.

On 02.12.19 17:59, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> On 02/12/2019 17:40, Vesa Solonen wrote:
>> topological routing will
> 
> Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
> than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what exactly
> it has to do with topology [1]?
> 
> Tom
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Vesa Solonen]

Tomasz Wlostowski kirjoitti 2.12.2019 klo 18.59:

> Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
> than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what exactly
> it has to do with topology [1]?

This must be a case of missed quotation marks on my behalf, but also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_map

Properties of the object (netlist as implemented on a PCB) does not
change as the (implementation on the PCB) is deformed.

That escalated quickly :)
-Vesa

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Carlo Maragno]

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, 18:14 Seth Hillbrand,  wrote:

> On 12/2/19 9:10 AM, José Ignacio wrote:
>
> Cows (like most mammals) are toruses though...
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:06 AM Wayne Stambaugh 
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/2/19 11:59 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
>> > On 02/12/2019 17:40, Vesa Solonen wrote:
>> >> topological routing will
>> >
>> > Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
>> > than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what exactly
>> > it has to do with topology [1]?
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology
>>
>> The cow morphing into a sphere made me smile :)
>>
>>
> Our dev list never disappoints. :)  This is top-notch Monday content.
>
> -S
>

+1

Carlo

>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Seth Hillbrand]

On 12/2/19 9:10 AM, José Ignacio wrote:

Cows (like most mammals) are toruses though...

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:06 AM Wayne Stambaugh > wrote:


On 12/2/19 11:59 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> On 02/12/2019 17:40, Vesa Solonen wrote:
>> topological routing will
>
> Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
> than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what
exactly
> it has to do with topology [1]?
>
> Tom
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology

The cow morphing into a sphere made me smile :)



Our dev list never disappoints. :)  This is top-notch Monday content.

-S
--
KiCad Services Corporation KiCad Services Corporation Logo
Seth Hillbrand
*Lead Developer*
+1-530-302-5483‬ 
Davis, CA
www.kipro-pcb.com  i...@kipro-pcb.com 

https://twitter.com/KiProEDA  
https://www.linkedin.com/company/kicad 



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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 02/12/2019 18:10, José Ignacio wrote:
> Cows (like most mammals) are toruses though...

Well, if you'd take circulatory and lymphatic systems into account, they
actually are higher order manifolds ;-)

T.

> 
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:06 AM Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> On 12/2/19 11:59 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> > On 02/12/2019 17:40, Vesa Solonen wrote:
> >> topological routing will
> >
> > Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
> > than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what exactly
> > it has to do with topology [1]?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology
> 
> The cow morphing into a sphere made me smile :)
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[José Ignacio]

Cows (like most mammals) are toruses though...

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:06 AM Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

> On 12/2/19 11:59 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> > On 02/12/2019 17:40, Vesa Solonen wrote:
> >> topological routing will
> >
> > Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
> > than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what exactly
> > it has to do with topology [1]?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology
>
> The cow morphing into a sphere made me smile :)
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 12/2/19 11:59 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> On 02/12/2019 17:40, Vesa Solonen wrote:
>> topological routing will
> 
> Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
> than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what exactly
> it has to do with topology [1]?
> 
> Tom
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology

The cow morphing into a sphere made me smile :)

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 02/12/2019 17:40, Vesa Solonen wrote:
> topological routing will

Could you please explain what 'topological routing' does mean (other
than being marketing buzzword used by some companies) and what exactly
it has to do with topology [1]?

Tom

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology



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Re: [Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Vesa Solonen]

Jon Evans kirjoitti 2.12.2019 klo 17.49:

> Check out the first two videos "Any Angle Routing" and "Sliding" - some
> interesting concepts.  I haven't played with them in real life yet.

This is what topological routing will provide. There is some open source
stuff at

http://www.ssalewski.de/Router.html.en

and commercial TopoR that I had a chance to use about ten years ago.

https://mylifeasa.tinkerer.us/using-topor-to-autoroute-a-kicad-pcb-bf5ae47cdc7b

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TopoR

-Vesa

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[Kicad-developers] Altium 20 new interactive routing features

[Jon Evans]

https://www.altium.com/altium-designer/whats-new
Check out the first two videos "Any Angle Routing" and "Sliding" - some
interesting concepts.  I haven't played with them in real life yet.

-Jon
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