Re: [Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
You would be able to create named configurations with DNF and/or alternate symbol fields per configuration. I considered using alternate symbols but that would make the design far more complex but it's still not outside the realm of possibility. There is still some work to do complete the final design. Wayne On 9/20/19 5:39 PM, Cirilo Bernardo wrote: > How would this work - can you create "configurations" and mark each > component as "do not use in this configuration"? Can components also > have different values rather than just DNF? In the PCB design, can I > select the configuration and export a BOM and a position file which > will only have the required components for that configuration? While > looking at the schematic, how do you convey that a component has > variations? In the documentation, how do we express the variations? > Will a report be automatically generated with the variations for all > configurations? > > Cirilo > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:48 PM Oliver Walters > wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Almost a year ago now I suggested a feature addition, allowing for marking >> parts in the schematic as "DO NOT FIT" >> >> https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg38415.html >> >> I had made a lot of progress towards feature completion, however was told at >> the time that such a feature would not be accepted. >> >> A year later, and after a lot of frustration of sending the wrong files out >> for manufacturer due to confusion about which parts are fitted, I'd like to >> raise the issue again. >> >> Currently parts are marked as "DNF" by setting a special field in the BOM >> and checking for this with a special export script. >> >> However, I feel (and I'm sure many would agree) that this information should >> be integral to the schematic representation itself. Some other EDA packages >> achieve this quite well. >> >> I presented a way to achieve this without breaking backwards compatibility >> with the file format. >> >> If the "new" file format is still far in the future, can this feature be >> considered again? >> >> Cheers, >> Oliver >> ___ >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
How would this work - can you create "configurations" and mark each component as "do not use in this configuration"? Can components also have different values rather than just DNF? In the PCB design, can I select the configuration and export a BOM and a position file which will only have the required components for that configuration? While looking at the schematic, how do you convey that a component has variations? In the documentation, how do we express the variations? Will a report be automatically generated with the variations for all configurations? Cirilo On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:48 PM Oliver Walters wrote: > > Hi all, > > Almost a year ago now I suggested a feature addition, allowing for marking > parts in the schematic as "DO NOT FIT" > > https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg38415.html > > I had made a lot of progress towards feature completion, however was told at > the time that such a feature would not be accepted. > > A year later, and after a lot of frustration of sending the wrong files out > for manufacturer due to confusion about which parts are fitted, I'd like to > raise the issue again. > > Currently parts are marked as "DNF" by setting a special field in the BOM and > checking for this with a special export script. > > However, I feel (and I'm sure many would agree) that this information should > be integral to the schematic representation itself. Some other EDA packages > achieve this quite well. > > I presented a way to achieve this without breaking backwards compatibility > with the file format. > > If the "new" file format is still far in the future, can this feature be > considered again? > > Cheers, > Oliver > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
On 20/09/19 20:55, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: Initially it will be simple DNF marking. Eventually full variant support will be included. It's hard to say when that might happen. There are a lot of new features planned for the new schematic file formats some of which will most likely have priority over full variant support. Cheers, Wayne Probably introducing in the file format the possibility to use a list of values for the component value (and other fields like the DNF flag) and put in the first release of V6 the behaviour "use the first value, keep the others saved in the file" would leave the door open to this development after the V6.0 release and without changing the file format specs, allowing to implement it without the need for further changes to the file format. Anyway, I confess I did not see the latest specs, so probably this has been considered yet and I'm re-inventing the wheel. P.S.: I'm quite curious about the new eeschema file specs (I've seen a version from march 2018 dev mailing list, so may be quite outdated). Cheers, Dino. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
Oliver, On 9/19/19 6:22 PM, Oliver Walters wrote: > I understand your frustration but I'm currently working on the new file > format so I am not interested in adding a new feature to the current > schematic file format. This feature is already rolled into the new > schematic file format. I should have most of this work complete by the > end of the year so it makes no sense to divert resources from the new > file format development to test and maintain the proposed changes to the > current file format. The current file format is frozen permanently so > that we can focus on the new format. > > > Wayne, thanks for your prompt feedback on this. Can I ask, does the new > format support simple "DNF" marking or full variant support? Initially it will be simple DNF marking. Eventually full variant support will be included. It's hard to say when that might happen. There are a lot of new features planned for the new schematic file formats some of which will most likely have priority over full variant support. Cheers, Wayne > > Nobody in this thread has yet mentioned KiBoM, which has this > kind of capability. It has its quirks, to be sure, but I would > recommend investigating it first, before starting to write something new. > > > I actually wrote that tool (many moons ago) to fill the gaps of KiCad > assembly management. I would love to see some if its features integrated > into KiCad directly. > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:47 PM Oliver Walters > mailto:oliver.henry.walt...@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > Hi all, > > Almost a year ago now I suggested a feature addition, allowing for > marking parts in the schematic as "DO NOT FIT" > > https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg38415.html > > I had made a lot of progress towards feature completion, however was > told at the time that such a feature would not be accepted. > > A year later, and after a lot of frustration of sending the wrong > files out for manufacturer due to confusion about which parts are > fitted, I'd like to raise the issue again. > > Currently parts are marked as "DNF" by setting a special field in > the BOM and checking for this with a special export script. > > However, I feel (and I'm sure many would agree) that this > information should be integral to the schematic representation > itself. Some other EDA packages achieve this quite well. > > I presented a way to achieve this without breaking backwards > compatibility with the file format. > > If the "new" file format is still far in the future, can this > feature be considered again? > > Cheers, > Oliver > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
> > I understand your frustration but I'm currently working on the new file > format so I am not interested in adding a new feature to the current > schematic file format. This feature is already rolled into the new > schematic file format. I should have most of this work complete by the > end of the year so it makes no sense to divert resources from the new > file format development to test and maintain the proposed changes to the > current file format. The current file format is frozen permanently so > that we can focus on the new format. > > Wayne, thanks for your prompt feedback on this. Can I ask, does the new format support simple "DNF" marking or full variant support? Nobody in this thread has yet mentioned KiBoM, which has this > kind of capability. It has its quirks, to be sure, but I would > recommend investigating it first, before starting to write something new. > > I actually wrote that tool (many moons ago) to fill the gaps of KiCad assembly management. I would love to see some if its features integrated into KiCad directly. On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:47 PM Oliver Walters < oliver.henry.walt...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Almost a year ago now I suggested a feature addition, allowing for marking > parts in the schematic as "DO NOT FIT" > > https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg38415.html > > I had made a lot of progress towards feature completion, however was told > at the time that such a feature would not be accepted. > > A year later, and after a lot of frustration of sending the wrong files > out for manufacturer due to confusion about which parts are fitted, I'd > like to raise the issue again. > > Currently parts are marked as "DNF" by setting a special field in the BOM > and checking for this with a special export script. > > However, I feel (and I'm sure many would agree) that this information > should be integral to the schematic representation itself. Some other EDA > packages achieve this quite well. > > I presented a way to achieve this without breaking backwards compatibility > with the file format. > > If the "new" file format is still far in the future, can this feature be > considered again? > > Cheers, > Oliver > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 03:41:41PM +0200, ja...@veith.net wrote: > pls allow some comments to Olivers do not fit suggestions. > ... > „Do not fit“ components are nothing else than changed value properties of > components. E.g. variant A has no R100 and value of R100=DNF, variant B with > R100=1k, variant C with R100 =4k7. Nobody in this thread has yet mentioned KiBoM, which has this kind of capability. It has its quirks, to be sure, but I would recommend investigating it first, before starting to write something new. https://github.com/SchrodingersGat/KiBoM - Larry ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
pls allow some comments to Olivers do not fit suggestions. We recently stumbled accidently above Kicad after quarrels with commercial tools and found its push & shoove capabilites are a remarkable and motivating feature. Experience shows, that the „do not fit“ feature is much more complex. Unfortunately PCB do not have interface standards for contract assembly and soldering in comparison to Gerber for etching or CNC drilling. Therefore cooperation with non black belted contract manufactureres is always painful. For this reason, we run our own SMD pick & place machines. „Do not fit“ components are nothing else than changed value properties of components. E.g. variant A has no R100 and value of R100=DNF, variant B with R100=1k, variant C with R100 =4k7. Shure this decision is in the responsibility of the design engineer. To decide this inside schematic will end up in complex variant manager tools. Variants become instances of schematic. This raises more questions what beginners hardly understand. Finally we recognize that variants are not only a question of assembly but of component purchasing, stock keeping and so on. This leads to the blueprint V6 library format discussion what is much more complex. I dont offer contract assembly and all designs are own and drawn by diffrent CAD. After struggling years with Excel BOM and insufficient CSV macros like many other contract manufacturers, we started https://sourceforge.net/projects/cad2board/ Up on today Qt is only compiled and tested for windows, cannot read Kicad input and output format is limited to our Heeb pick & place machines (today ATN innoplacer Berlin) So is of little consequence for Kicad but solution works comfortable here. We have complex variant managers but do not use. Variant decisions are executed at latest possible moment. Eg. the reel with CPU crystals run unexpected empty and there are a few more boards to populate. It is one click to take out this component from project temporarily without saving and continue assembly if I decide to complete the few crystals by hand while board testing. Same way we manage all variants and „DNF“ components permanently inside pick2place project files. They can be merged any time with updates from full size BOM. To understand Olivers efforts: The disadvantage of this solution is a possibly inaccurate schematics not representing all details of any specific variant. Happy routing Janvi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
I understand your frustration but I'm currently working on the new file format so I am not interested in adding a new feature to the current schematic file format. This feature is already rolled into the new schematic file format. I should have most of this work complete by the end of the year so it makes no sense to divert resources from the new file format development to test and maintain the proposed changes to the current file format. The current file format is frozen permanently so that we can focus on the new format. Cheers, Wayne On 9/19/19 9:21 AM, Dino Ghilardi wrote: > +1 on this > > I usually work-around the problem setting the component value to "NM" or > "Not mounted" or "Don't mount" , but this is sub-optimal and needs more > work to update the bom and the place files. > > The only suggestion I have is to make translatable or configurable the > shown string on the schematic and layout printed/plotted files (I mean > the files that are intended to be read mostly by humans): may be in > different countries the DNF or NC or NM have a different meaning. > > > This "do not fit" flag would be a solution simpler than fully implement > the "assembly variants" (with a single schematic where "don't fit" > components and even the component value value depend on "assembly > version"), but it would make life easier on a lot of projects. > > The full "assembly variants" implementation would probably require > changing the file format having a list of values for every component and > a list of allowed variant, so this seems in the far (far) future (but > may be I'm wrong). > > Once the "don't fit" information is available both to pcbnew and > eeschema, future (and indipendent from this) developments could also > have "big red ugly cross" over dnf components in the assembly drawings > (or something like that), graying-out the DNF components in eeschema etc... > > On 19/09/19 12:47, Oliver Walters wrote: > > >> Hi all, >> >> Almost a year ago now I suggested a feature addition, allowing for >> marking parts in the schematic as "DO NOT FIT" >> >> https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg38415.html >> >> I had made a lot of progress towards feature completion, however was >> told at the time that such a feature would not be accepted. >> >> A year later, and after a lot of frustration of sending the wrong >> files out for manufacturer due to confusion about which parts are >> fitted, I'd like to raise the issue again. >> >> Currently parts are marked as "DNF" by setting a special field in the >> BOM and checking for this with a special export script. >> >> However, I feel (and I'm sure many would agree) that this information >> should be integral to the schematic representation itself. Some other >> EDA packages achieve this quite well. >> >> I presented a way to achieve this without breaking backwards >> compatibility with the file format. >> >> If the "new" file format is still far in the future, can this feature >> be considered again? >> >> Cheers, >> Oliver >> >> ___ >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
+1 on this I usually work-around the problem setting the component value to "NM" or "Not mounted" or "Don't mount" , but this is sub-optimal and needs more work to update the bom and the place files. The only suggestion I have is to make translatable or configurable the shown string on the schematic and layout printed/plotted files (I mean the files that are intended to be read mostly by humans): may be in different countries the DNF or NC or NM have a different meaning. This "do not fit" flag would be a solution simpler than fully implement the "assembly variants" (with a single schematic where "don't fit" components and even the component value value depend on "assembly version"), but it would make life easier on a lot of projects. The full "assembly variants" implementation would probably require changing the file format having a list of values for every component and a list of allowed variant, so this seems in the far (far) future (but may be I'm wrong). Once the "don't fit" information is available both to pcbnew and eeschema, future (and indipendent from this) developments could also have "big red ugly cross" over dnf components in the assembly drawings (or something like that), graying-out the DNF components in eeschema etc... On 19/09/19 12:47, Oliver Walters wrote: Hi all, Almost a year ago now I suggested a feature addition, allowing for marking parts in the schematic as "DO NOT FIT" https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg38415.html I had made a lot of progress towards feature completion, however was told at the time that such a feature would not be accepted. A year later, and after a lot of frustration of sending the wrong files out for manufacturer due to confusion about which parts are fitted, I'd like to raise the issue again. Currently parts are marked as "DNF" by setting a special field in the BOM and checking for this with a special export script. However, I feel (and I'm sure many would agree) that this information should be integral to the schematic representation itself. Some other EDA packages achieve this quite well. I presented a way to achieve this without breaking backwards compatibility with the file format. If the "new" file format is still far in the future, can this feature be considered again? Cheers, Oliver ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Kicad-developers] Do Not Fit
Hi all, Almost a year ago now I suggested a feature addition, allowing for marking parts in the schematic as "DO NOT FIT" https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg38415.html I had made a lot of progress towards feature completion, however was told at the time that such a feature would not be accepted. A year later, and after a lot of frustration of sending the wrong files out for manufacturer due to confusion about which parts are fitted, I'd like to raise the issue again. Currently parts are marked as "DNF" by setting a special field in the BOM and checking for this with a special export script. However, I feel (and I'm sure many would agree) that this information should be integral to the schematic representation itself. Some other EDA packages achieve this quite well. I presented a way to achieve this without breaking backwards compatibility with the file format. If the "new" file format is still far in the future, can this feature be considered again? Cheers, Oliver ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
