Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Looks great.  Thank you.

On 10/12/2015 10:00 PM, Mark Roszko wrote:
> http://kicad-pcb.org/help/known-system-related-issues/
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Maciej Sumiński
>  wrote:
>> On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
>>> 2) the only mention to this is here:
>>>
>>> http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks
>>
>> There is also: http://kicad-pcb.org/post/known-system-related-issues/
>> Perhaps it could be moved to a permanent page (Help->Known issues or
>> something similar).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Orson
>>
>>
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> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Travis Ayres]

Win2k - that was almost 16 years ago. Isn't it unreasonable to expect
things to work quickly across systems that are *that* old?
On Oct 11, 2015 9:21 AM, "Lorenzo Marcantonio" 
wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:41:57AM -0400, Stefano Rossi wrote:
> > I am a current user of Altium, and I think that OpenGL is necessary to
> use
> > it. Either you have it and you can use the software, or you don't and
> tough
> > luck.
>
> Until a few revision ago Direct3D (not OpenGL IIRC) was the
> 'recommended' Altium interface, with the fallback on GDI being
> deprecated. Current version may simply require shader model x (with x
> being more or less the windows version:P)
>
> My rant was more about intel lying on the supported primitives. For its
> design I agree that the OpenGL canvas requires *at least* 2.0; too bad
> they deprecated the logical mode, since blending is an inferior
> replacement for (x)oring the layers...
>
> Of course the big problem is us being poor :D we still have win2k
> machines running happily around (the 20GB HDD generation is something
> near immortal:P)
>
> > From reading the mailing lists I have understood that using wxDC over
> > OpenGL gives you a different function set to work with, such as the Push
> > and Shove not working in wxDC. Has anyone thought about abstracting the
> > layer on which things are drawn on? Such that you would have a KiCad
> > specific library and then have it draw to the system through selectable
> > OpenGL or Cairo. And if it cannot, why? Why PNS be not implemented in
> wxDC?
>
> Already is. It only need a performant-enough implementation (cairo
> isn't:D). Main problem is the different approach needed for a display
> list dirty-rectangle engine against a full redraw compositing one.
>
> > I have yet to use KiCad, but I would like too. I really got interested
> when
> > I got hold of information about plans of making eeshema, pcbnew, cvpcb
> and
> > others as plugins to a main window. Now that sounds nice. I had to work
> > with OrCAD for a while (1 yr) at work and I cannot express in words how
> > much I hate it's way of doing things all in separate programs.
>
> I actually prefer them to be separate; everyone has his own workflow...
>
> > beginners learn time but actual users time. EagleCAD is one of those that
>
> Main problem with eagle is that it costs way too much for what it does!
>
> --
> Lorenzo Marcantonio
> Logos Srl
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 06:08:58AM -0700, Travis Ayres wrote:
> Win2k - that was almost 16 years ago. Isn't it unreasonable to expect
> things to work quickly across systems that are *that* old?

Given that there are however a lot of these machines around, the
original topic was about a laptop sold as windows seven compliant...

The 2K was just an example. Last time I've seen that PC (more or less 3
years ago), at another job I had a windows 3.1 box doing pbx accounting.

No, it didn't run on 95 either; windows 3.11 or bust :P

-- 
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Logos Srl

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Markus Hitter]

Am 12.10.2015 um 15:08 schrieb Travis Ayres:
> Win2k - that was almost 16 years ago. Isn't it unreasonable to expect
> things to work quickly across systems that are *that* old?

The most unreasonable thing I see in this discussion is the try to
excuse code sloppiness with hardware age requirements. Well written code
works on hardware of any age.

That said, I don't see much of such sloppiness, the failure on
unaccelerated graphics hardware as well as the misalignment in behaviour
between different canvas' are considered to be a bug. This is the right
way to handle such issues.


Markus

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 10/12/2015 8:44 AM, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
> On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
>> 2) the only mention to this is here:
>>
>> http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks
> 
> There is also: http://kicad-pcb.org/post/known-system-related-issues/
> Perhaps it could be moved to a permanent page (Help->Known issues or
> something similar).
> 
> Regards,
> Orson
> 

I like the idea of moving this to Help->Known Issues.  I would also like
to see the section on Boost removed.  Building with Boost 1.56+ is
already addressed in the building KiCad from source in the developers
documentation which I just committed over the weekend.

Thanks,

Wayne

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Maciej Sumiński]

On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
> 2) the only mention to this is here:
> 
> http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks

There is also: http://kicad-pcb.org/post/known-system-related-issues/
Perhaps it could be moved to a permanent page (Help->Known issues or
something similar).

Regards,
Orson



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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 10/12/2015 10:20 AM, Nick Østergaard wrote:
> But this does not address the issue of KiCad trying to download, patch
> and build boost 1.54 if you just do cmake parth/to/srcdir; make.

The KICAD_SKIP_BOOST option is documented:

http://ci.kicad-pcb.org/job/kicad-doxygen/ws/Documentation/doxygen/html/md_Documentation_development_compiling.html#boost_opt

I suppose I could add some more information about gcc 5+ failing to
build the default Boost 1.54.

> 
> 2015-10-12 16:16 GMT+02:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>>
>>
>> On 10/12/2015 10:07 AM, Nick Østergaard wrote:
>>> 2015-10-12 15:29 GMT+02:00 Wayne Stambaugh :

 On 10/12/2015 8:44 AM, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
> On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
>> 2) the only mention to this is here:
>>
>> http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks
>
> There is also: http://kicad-pcb.org/post/known-system-related-issues/
> Perhaps it could be moved to a permanent page (Help->Known issues or
> something similar).
>
> Regards,
> Orson
>

 I like the idea of moving this to Help->Known Issues.  I would also like
 to see the section on Boost removed.  Building with Boost 1.56+ is
 already addressed in the building KiCad from source in the developers
 documentation which I just committed over the weekend.

 Thanks,

 Wayne

>>>
>>> In which commit was this addressed?
>>
>> r6259, the autobuilder has already updated the developer docs which the
>> new "Building KiCad from Source" can be found here:
>>
>> http://ci.kicad-pcb.org/job/kicad-doxygen/ws/Documentation/doxygen/html/md_Documentation_development_compiling.html
>>
>>>
>>> Also, I would like to keep the information for reference at least for
>>> some time. Remember that the default has been to use the bundled boost
>>> 1.54, which fails building on stock gcc 5.1 and 5.2 AFIK.
>>>
>>> We could move the known system related issues page under the help menu.
>>>
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Nick Østergaard]

2015-10-12 15:29 GMT+02:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>
> On 10/12/2015 8:44 AM, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
>> On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
>>> 2) the only mention to this is here:
>>>
>>> http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks
>>
>> There is also: http://kicad-pcb.org/post/known-system-related-issues/
>> Perhaps it could be moved to a permanent page (Help->Known issues or
>> something similar).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Orson
>>
>
> I like the idea of moving this to Help->Known Issues.  I would also like
> to see the section on Boost removed.  Building with Boost 1.56+ is
> already addressed in the building KiCad from source in the developers
> documentation which I just committed over the weekend.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wayne
>

In which commit was this addressed?

Also, I would like to keep the information for reference at least for
some time. Remember that the default has been to use the bundled boost
1.54, which fails building on stock gcc 5.1 and 5.2 AFIK.

We could move the known system related issues page under the help menu.

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 10/12/2015 10:07 AM, Nick Østergaard wrote:
> 2015-10-12 15:29 GMT+02:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>>
>> On 10/12/2015 8:44 AM, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
>>> On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
 2) the only mention to this is here:

 http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks
>>>
>>> There is also: http://kicad-pcb.org/post/known-system-related-issues/
>>> Perhaps it could be moved to a permanent page (Help->Known issues or
>>> something similar).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Orson
>>>
>>
>> I like the idea of moving this to Help->Known Issues.  I would also like
>> to see the section on Boost removed.  Building with Boost 1.56+ is
>> already addressed in the building KiCad from source in the developers
>> documentation which I just committed over the weekend.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Wayne
>>
> 
> In which commit was this addressed?

r6259, the autobuilder has already updated the developer docs which the
new "Building KiCad from Source" can be found here:

http://ci.kicad-pcb.org/job/kicad-doxygen/ws/Documentation/doxygen/html/md_Documentation_development_compiling.html

> 
> Also, I would like to keep the information for reference at least for
> some time. Remember that the default has been to use the bundled boost
> 1.54, which fails building on stock gcc 5.1 and 5.2 AFIK.
> 
> We could move the known system related issues page under the help menu.
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Nick Østergaard]

But this does not address the issue of KiCad trying to download, patch
and build boost 1.54 if you just do cmake parth/to/srcdir; make.

2015-10-12 16:16 GMT+02:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>
>
> On 10/12/2015 10:07 AM, Nick Østergaard wrote:
>> 2015-10-12 15:29 GMT+02:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>>>
>>> On 10/12/2015 8:44 AM, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
 On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
> 2) the only mention to this is here:
>
> http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks

 There is also: http://kicad-pcb.org/post/known-system-related-issues/
 Perhaps it could be moved to a permanent page (Help->Known issues or
 something similar).

 Regards,
 Orson

>>>
>>> I like the idea of moving this to Help->Known Issues.  I would also like
>>> to see the section on Boost removed.  Building with Boost 1.56+ is
>>> already addressed in the building KiCad from source in the developers
>>> documentation which I just committed over the weekend.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>
>> In which commit was this addressed?
>
> r6259, the autobuilder has already updated the developer docs which the
> new "Building KiCad from Source" can be found here:
>
> http://ci.kicad-pcb.org/job/kicad-doxygen/ws/Documentation/doxygen/html/md_Documentation_development_compiling.html
>
>>
>> Also, I would like to keep the information for reference at least for
>> some time. Remember that the default has been to use the bundled boost
>> 1.54, which fails building on stock gcc 5.1 and 5.2 AFIK.
>>
>> We could move the known system related issues page under the help menu.
>>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Mark Roszko]

http://kicad-pcb.org/help/known-system-related-issues/


On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Maciej Sumiński
 wrote:
> On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
>> 2) the only mention to this is here:
>>
>> http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks
>
> There is also: http://kicad-pcb.org/post/known-system-related-issues/
> Perhaps it could be moved to a permanent page (Help->Known issues or
> something similar).
>
> Regards,
> Orson
>
>
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-- 
Mark

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Stefano Rossi]

Hello,

This is my first post to the mailing list.

I am a current user of Altium, and I think that OpenGL is necessary to use
it. Either you have it and you can use the software, or you don't and tough
luck.

>From reading the mailing lists I have understood that using wxDC over
OpenGL gives you a different function set to work with, such as the Push
and Shove not working in wxDC. Has anyone thought about abstracting the
layer on which things are drawn on? Such that you would have a KiCad
specific library and then have it draw to the system through selectable
OpenGL or Cairo. And if it cannot, why? Why PNS be not implemented in wxDC?

I have yet to use KiCad, but I would like too. I really got interested when
I got hold of information about plans of making eeshema, pcbnew, cvpcb and
others as plugins to a main window. Now that sounds nice. I had to work
with OrCAD for a while (1 yr) at work and I cannot express in words how
much I hate it's way of doing things all in separate programs.
Not to mention the separate component-footprint model that OrCAD has, and
believe KiCAD as well. I usually invest time in Altium making my component,
and adding footprints so that later on, when I add the component I know it
works and it has been tested. Altium also gives the option to do the OrCAD
way of assigning footprints at the Schematic-PCB crosspoint but I find it
annoying as now I have to remember each component and which 10uF cap had
the special characteristics. I know it is probably whining but why put
effort in a component twice, once at creation and then at usage?

I am currently trying to touch up my C++ (as I do mostly embedded
programming in C) so that I can participate with KiCad development.

I like the goals KiCAD has, and see it as an alternative to Altium. Sorry
if I compare it to a commercial software, but KiCAD must at least compete
at that level. I have used a couple pcb tools starting at Proteus (Ares),
then went to EagleCAD which was undoubtedly better, with a higher learning
curve. After that, I briefly tried OrCAD but that seemed like bloatware
from Win 3.1 era, and finally had a chance to use Altium. All of the
mentioned tools have a learning curve, but I find that after you get over
the hurdles, the software that comes to shine the most is one that gets
things done faster. Altium being the case for me.

Not so long ago, there were comments about not trying to be like another
software package, or doing things as others. Thing is, you cannot beat a
well thought out shortcut system, even thought it seems unintuitive at he
beginning. I think someone mentioned this before: Its not how much you save
beginners learn time but actual users time. EagleCAD is one of those that
isn't easy to use, you have the toolbars, but eventually you grow out of
them for key shortcuts that you type into command bar so much faster and I
remember that at the beginning I thought of it as a nuisance. I have
modified my keyboard such that when using Altium, I can achieve most
functionality with left hand, while rig
ht is on the mouse.

Sorry if I ranted to much as the new guy around the block without getting
to know others and with such short introduction.

Thanks,
Stefano R.R.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Markus Hitter  wrote:

> Am 11.10.2015 um 14:08 schrieb Tomasz Wlostowski:
> > On 11.10.2015 14:03, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
> >> > CAN'T THEY DO A FSCKING WORKING GPU without having to hack the drivers
> >> > to get them installed?!
> > Lorenzo, if you know better how to do a GPU, maybe you should apply for
> > a job at Intel and teach them?
>
> This, and such lamenting is pretty pointless, because users have their
> hardware already. Solutions can be on a software level, only. Asking
> users to install a specific version of Mesa drivers is an option, asking
> them to buy new hardware not.
>
>
> Markus
>
> --
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Markus Hitter]

Am 11.10.2015 um 14:08 schrieb Tomasz Wlostowski:
> On 11.10.2015 14:03, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
>> > CAN'T THEY DO A FSCKING WORKING GPU without having to hack the drivers
>> > to get them installed?!
> Lorenzo, if you know better how to do a GPU, maybe you should apply for
> a job at Intel and teach them?

This, and such lamenting is pretty pointless, because users have their
hardware already. Solutions can be on a software level, only. Asking
users to install a specific version of Mesa drivers is an option, asking
them to buy new hardware not.


Markus

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 11.10.2015 14:03, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
> CAN'T THEY DO A FSCKING WORKING GPU without having to hack the drivers
> to get them installed?!

Lorenzo, if you know better how to do a GPU, maybe you should apply for
a job at Intel and teach them?

T.



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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 02:08:39PM +0200, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:

> Lorenzo, if you know better how to do a GPU, maybe you should apply for
> a job at Intel and teach them?

At least if your HW is 1.4 capable don't export the support for 2.0 and
fake the rest in software...

YES I know that in OpenGL that's actually completely legal... a
'conforming' implementation could be even 100% software (like the Mesa
baseline) and export the 4.0 API and work like a drunk snail and still
nobody could complain about that.

-- 
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Logos Srl

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[Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

... even the Intel HD are very conservative in their hardware GPU
implementation :(

For the pre-HD the driver exposes an OpenGL 2 API when the hardware it's
only made for OpenGL 1.4; probably they did this to run Vista/Seven on
these (if you turn off the aero stuff, of course :D). My toughbook was
indeed sold with vista and is seven compatible!

It makes me mad that doing the same things (simple sprite blits) it's
much more faster using 1.3 than using 2.1 (tested with SDL vs SDL2).
Probably just enabling 2.0 switches on some software emulation even for
the same things!

Too bad that except for the high-end CF-31, the panasonic ruggeds always
have low power gpus (for both battery and thermal issues... since they
have no fan and run forever from batteries)

The last consumer grade laptop (AMD APU, something like an i3 with an
embedded GPU) however survived about 8 months on the field :P hydraulic
oil and cheap plastic don't mix very well! Even the APU is *way* better
than the intel HD... the intel HD is usable unless you ask for a lot of
tracks. Then it's *way* faster to use the wx/GTK view (which is IMHO
prettier but that's a personal opinion)

Also got random reboots with the HD; seems to be thermal issues because
it became *really* hot!

Morale: don't get an intel gpu if you ever want to use the gpu.

Still can't use the opengl pcb mode :(((

End of rant. On the list so people will in future know that they will
have issues with intel gpus. Like they have with AMD gpus and OSS
drivers for other reasons...

CAN'T THEY DO A FSCKING WORKING GPU without having to hack the drivers
to get them installed?!

-- 
Lorenzo Marcantonio
Logos Srl

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 11.10.2015 14:21, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 02:08:39PM +0200, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> 
>> Lorenzo, if you know better how to do a GPU, maybe you should apply for
>> a job at Intel and teach them?
> 
> At least if your HW is 1.4 capable don't export the support for 2.0 and
> fake the rest in software...
> 
> YES I know that in OpenGL that's actually completely legal... a
> 'conforming' implementation could be even 100% software (like the Mesa
> baseline) and export the 4.0 API and work like a drunk snail and still
> nobody could complain about that.
> 

That's sad, but we can't do much about it except making a fast software
renderer or optimize the Cairo one...

It's on our list for after-the-stable-release, and we'd greatly
appreciate help here.

Tom


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Marco Ciampa]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 02:29:10PM +0200, Markus Hitter wrote:
> Am 11.10.2015 um 14:08 schrieb Tomasz Wlostowski:
> > On 11.10.2015 14:03, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
> >> > CAN'T THEY DO A FSCKING WORKING GPU without having to hack the drivers
> >> > to get them installed?!
> > Lorenzo, if you know better how to do a GPU, maybe you should apply for
> > a job at Intel and teach them?
> 
> This, and such lamenting is pretty pointless, because users have their
> hardware already. Solutions can be on a software level, only. Asking
> users to install a specific version of Mesa drivers is an option, asking
> them to buy new hardware not.

Yes indeed, and BTW:

1) KiCad site and docs are missing a "recommended hardware" list, just to warn
users that probably KiCad is going to work well/bad on your choosen (or
not) hardware. There is not even a recomended screen resolution that IMHO
all decend CADs have or the suggestion to use ...

2) the only mention to this is here:

http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks

for the 3 button mouse and nothing more (and that should be in the
getting started doc IMHO)...

--


Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

++
| GNU/Linux User  #78271 |
| FSFE fellow   #364 |
++


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 10/11/2015 9:37 AM, Marco Ciampa wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 02:29:10PM +0200, Markus Hitter wrote:
>> Am 11.10.2015 um 14:08 schrieb Tomasz Wlostowski:
>>> On 11.10.2015 14:03, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
> CAN'T THEY DO A FSCKING WORKING GPU without having to hack the drivers
> to get them installed?!
>>> Lorenzo, if you know better how to do a GPU, maybe you should apply for
>>> a job at Intel and teach them?
>>
>> This, and such lamenting is pretty pointless, because users have their
>> hardware already. Solutions can be on a software level, only. Asking
>> users to install a specific version of Mesa drivers is an option, asking
>> them to buy new hardware not.
> 
> Yes indeed, and BTW:
> 
> 1) KiCad site and docs are missing a "recommended hardware" list, just to warn
> users that probably KiCad is going to work well/bad on your choosen (or
> not) hardware. There is not even a recomended screen resolution that IMHO
> all decend CADs have or the suggestion to use ...

This probably should be added to the KiCad website in the "Getting
Started" section.

> 
> 2) the only mention to this is here:
> 
> http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/pcbnew.html#_general_remarks
> 
> for the 3 button mouse and nothing more (and that should be in the
> getting started doc IMHO)...
> 
> --
> 
> 
> Marco Ciampa
> 
> I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.
> 
> ++
> | GNU/Linux User  #78271 |
> | FSFE fellow   #364 |
> ++
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 03:37:08PM +0200, Marco Ciampa wrote:
> for the 3 button mouse and nothing more (and that should be in the
> getting started doc IMHO)...

Last time I've checked also the middle button is only used to change the
layer color in pcbnew (and scrolling); having the color change available
in 'another way' would leave everything completely 2 button safe.

Note to laptop producers: why do you insist that a scrollwheel is more
important than the third button? At least we have chording and/or
xset/xinput...

-- 
Lorenzo Marcantonio
Logos Srl


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Found the source of Intel GPU suckitude in OpenGL

[Andy Peters]

> On Oct 11, 2015, at 9:09 AM, Lorenzo Marcantonio  
> wrote:
> 
> Note to laptop producers: why do you insist that a scrollwheel is more
> important than the third button? At least we have chording and/or
> xset/xinput…]

Why? 

Because the dominant operating system doesn’t have standardized support for a 
three-button mouse. And its primary commercial competitor (of which I am a big 
fan) has only recently (well, ok, I suppose with the first Magic Mouse ten 
years ago) started supporting a two-button mouse.

That said, I use a Kensington Expert mouse, with four buttons and a scroll 
ring, and I will fight to the death anyone who tries to take them from me. (I 
have spares.)

-a
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