Re: [Kicad-developers] How often do we want to auto-fill zones?

[Jeff Young]

When I’m focusing on one thing it’s distracting when the screen is updating 
elsewhere.

> On 8 Jul 2019, at 14:01, Eeli Kaikkonen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> la 6. heinäk. 2019 klo 15.17 Jeff Young (j...@rokeby.ie 
> ) kirjoitti:
>  Refilling on each move (even when fills are fast) is pretty noisy.
> 
> What do you mean by "noisy"?
> 
> Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] How often do we want to auto-fill zones?

[Eeli Kaikkonen]

la 6. heinäk. 2019 klo 15.17 Jeff Young (j...@rokeby.ie) kirjoitti:

>  Refilling on each move (even when fills are fast) is pretty noisy.
>

What do you mean by "noisy"?

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] How often do we want to auto-fill zones?

[Jeff Young]

I played with this a bit and I think we might want to reconsider.

The primary issue is that the point editor has a natural batching of 
operations: you select the zone, move a bunch of points around, and then 
deselect it.  We re-fill on deselect.

Moving items that overlap a zone has no such batching.  Refilling on each move 
(even when fills are fast) is pretty noisy.

So I’d be inclined to auto-fill ONLY after some points have been edited (and 
not on moving the zone or items which overlap it).

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Jeff.


> On 5 Jul 2019, at 17:13, Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:
> 
> On 7/5/19 11:50 AM, Seth Hillbrand wrote:
>> On 2019-07-05 07:46, Jeff Young wrote:
>>> 1) If I move a footprint which is over a zone, the zone fill becomes
>>> stale.
>>> 
>>> 2) If I move a zone which has footprints over it, the zone is re-filled.
>>> 
>>> 3) If I edit the points of a zone and then de-select it, the zone is
>>> re-filled.
>>> 
>>> Item (2) turns out to be a side effect of the PointEditor getting
>>> activated when the zone is selected for the move, and then refilling
>>> the zone when it is unselected.
>>> 
>>> Do we want to keep that, or should I make it consistent with (1)?
>>> 
>>> (Making it consistent will fix Wayne's crash, but I think I can find
>>> other ways of fixing it if we want to keep the behaviour.)
>> 
>> Wow, is that what that crash was?  Nice sleuthing there!  Point editor
>> is going to be the death of us. :)
>> 
>> Since we refill zones after they become stale internally, I think we
>> should be consistent and refill in case (1) also.  But this has some
>> nasty side effects when working in boards with extended fill times.  For
>> 5.1, I'd vote for leaving behavior as-is and adding a preference setting
>> for auto-refill stale zones in v6.  Then that can control all refills
>> including (1) as well as dragging a track over a filled zone area.
>> 
>> -Seth
>> 
> 
> I concur.  We should definitely make zone auto filling optional.  For
> complex boards the refill cost can be painful.
> 
> Wayne
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] How often do we want to auto-fill zones?

[Seth Hillbrand]

Hi Thomas-

Sounds good.  Can you add it to the bug tracker?  Doubtful for v6 as we 
have a lot on the agenda already but could be a good v7 project.


-Seth

On 2019-07-05 13:00, Thomas Pointhuber wrote:

On the long run, what about improving the fill algorithm to be able to
only update affected regions?

e.g. As long as an update cannot split the zone and the update has no
overlap with other zones it should be possible to only recalculate 
parts

of the zone fill and ignoring the rest.

I know this is not easy, especially to find all possible edge-cases. On
the long run it could be a nice usability improvement for people 
routing
while showing the zone fill as well as to avoid having fills into 
tracks

(which caused some production failures in the past)


Regards,
Thomas

Am 05.07.19 um 18:13 schrieb Wayne Stambaugh:

On 7/5/19 11:50 AM, Seth Hillbrand wrote:

On 2019-07-05 07:46, Jeff Young wrote:

1) If I move a footprint which is over a zone, the zone fill becomes
stale.

2) If I move a zone which has footprints over it, the zone is 
re-filled.


3) If I edit the points of a zone and then de-select it, the zone is
re-filled.

Item (2) turns out to be a side effect of the PointEditor getting
activated when the zone is selected for the move, and then refilling
the zone when it is unselected.

Do we want to keep that, or should I make it consistent with (1)?

(Making it consistent will fix Wayne's crash, but I think I can find
other ways of fixing it if we want to keep the behaviour.)


Wow, is that what that crash was?  Nice sleuthing there!  Point 
editor

is going to be the death of us. :)

Since we refill zones after they become stale internally, I think we
should be consistent and refill in case (1) also.  But this has some
nasty side effects when working in boards with extended fill times.  
For
5.1, I'd vote for leaving behavior as-is and adding a preference 
setting

for auto-refill stale zones in v6.  Then that can control all refills
including (1) as well as dragging a track over a filled zone area.

-Seth



I concur.  We should definitely make zone auto filling optional.  For
complex boards the refill cost can be painful.

Wayne

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Re: [Kicad-developers] How often do we want to auto-fill zones?

[Thomas Pointhuber]

On the long run, what about improving the fill algorithm to be able to
only update affected regions?

e.g. As long as an update cannot split the zone and the update has no
overlap with other zones it should be possible to only recalculate parts
of the zone fill and ignoring the rest.

I know this is not easy, especially to find all possible edge-cases. On
the long run it could be a nice usability improvement for people routing
while showing the zone fill as well as to avoid having fills into tracks
(which caused some production failures in the past)


Regards,
Thomas

Am 05.07.19 um 18:13 schrieb Wayne Stambaugh:
> On 7/5/19 11:50 AM, Seth Hillbrand wrote:
>> On 2019-07-05 07:46, Jeff Young wrote:
>>> 1) If I move a footprint which is over a zone, the zone fill becomes
>>> stale.
>>>
>>> 2) If I move a zone which has footprints over it, the zone is re-filled.
>>>
>>> 3) If I edit the points of a zone and then de-select it, the zone is
>>> re-filled.
>>>
>>> Item (2) turns out to be a side effect of the PointEditor getting
>>> activated when the zone is selected for the move, and then refilling
>>> the zone when it is unselected.
>>>
>>> Do we want to keep that, or should I make it consistent with (1)?
>>>
>>> (Making it consistent will fix Wayne's crash, but I think I can find
>>> other ways of fixing it if we want to keep the behaviour.)
>>
>> Wow, is that what that crash was?  Nice sleuthing there!  Point editor
>> is going to be the death of us. :)
>>
>> Since we refill zones after they become stale internally, I think we
>> should be consistent and refill in case (1) also.  But this has some
>> nasty side effects when working in boards with extended fill times.  For
>> 5.1, I'd vote for leaving behavior as-is and adding a preference setting
>> for auto-refill stale zones in v6.  Then that can control all refills
>> including (1) as well as dragging a track over a filled zone area.
>>
>> -Seth
>>
> 
> I concur.  We should definitely make zone auto filling optional.  For
> complex boards the refill cost can be painful.
> 
> Wayne
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] How often do we want to auto-fill zones?

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 7/5/19 11:50 AM, Seth Hillbrand wrote:
> On 2019-07-05 07:46, Jeff Young wrote:
>> 1) If I move a footprint which is over a zone, the zone fill becomes
>> stale.
>>
>> 2) If I move a zone which has footprints over it, the zone is re-filled.
>>
>> 3) If I edit the points of a zone and then de-select it, the zone is
>> re-filled.
>>
>> Item (2) turns out to be a side effect of the PointEditor getting
>> activated when the zone is selected for the move, and then refilling
>> the zone when it is unselected.
>>
>> Do we want to keep that, or should I make it consistent with (1)?
>>
>> (Making it consistent will fix Wayne's crash, but I think I can find
>> other ways of fixing it if we want to keep the behaviour.)
> 
> Wow, is that what that crash was?  Nice sleuthing there!  Point editor
> is going to be the death of us. :)
> 
> Since we refill zones after they become stale internally, I think we
> should be consistent and refill in case (1) also.  But this has some
> nasty side effects when working in boards with extended fill times.  For
> 5.1, I'd vote for leaving behavior as-is and adding a preference setting
> for auto-refill stale zones in v6.  Then that can control all refills
> including (1) as well as dragging a track over a filled zone area.
> 
> -Seth
> 

I concur.  We should definitely make zone auto filling optional.  For
complex boards the refill cost can be painful.

Wayne

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Re: [Kicad-developers] How often do we want to auto-fill zones?

[Seth Hillbrand]

On 2019-07-05 07:46, Jeff Young wrote:
1) If I move a footprint which is over a zone, the zone fill becomes 
stale.


2) If I move a zone which has footprints over it, the zone is 
re-filled.


3) If I edit the points of a zone and then de-select it, the zone is 
re-filled.


Item (2) turns out to be a side effect of the PointEditor getting
activated when the zone is selected for the move, and then refilling
the zone when it is unselected.

Do we want to keep that, or should I make it consistent with (1)?

(Making it consistent will fix Wayne's crash, but I think I can find
other ways of fixing it if we want to keep the behaviour.)


Wow, is that what that crash was?  Nice sleuthing there!  Point editor 
is going to be the death of us. :)


Since we refill zones after they become stale internally, I think we 
should be consistent and refill in case (1) also.  But this has some 
nasty side effects when working in boards with extended fill times.  For 
5.1, I'd vote for leaving behavior as-is and adding a preference setting 
for auto-refill stale zones in v6.  Then that can control all refills 
including (1) as well as dragging a track over a filled zone area.


-Seth

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[Kicad-developers] How often do we want to auto-fill zones?

[Jeff Young]

1) If I move a footprint which is over a zone, the zone fill becomes stale.

2) If I move a zone which has footprints over it, the zone is re-filled.

3) If I edit the points of a zone and then de-select it, the zone is re-filled.

Item (2) turns out to be a side effect of the PointEditor getting activated 
when the zone is selected for the move, and then refilling the zone when it is 
unselected.

Do we want to keep that, or should I make it consistent with (1)?

(Making it consistent will fix Wayne's crash, but I think I can find other ways 
of fixing it if we want to keep the behaviour.)

Cheers,
Jeff.
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