Re: [Kicad-developers] MacOS dependencies and minimum version

[Andy Peters]

> On Nov 1, 2018, at 11:23 AM, Jeff Young  wrote:
> 
> My daughter just had to upgrade from 10.11 to 10.12 because something else 
> stopped working.  So we won’t be alone. ;)
> 
> (In any event, I encouraged her to keep more up-to-date.  There’s really not 
> much down-side on the Mac, although I’ll admit I usually don’t go all the way 
> to the latest.)

Another Mac user data point. Every Mac user I know waits a couple of weeks 
after a major release before installing it. Usually it’s to see if a particular 
piece of hardware is supported or not. Otherwise, everyone who can upgrade will.

My old Core2Duo iMac is still on 10.11 because it cannot be upgraded, and 
honestly that machine is too slow to do -anything- much less run Kicad.



> 
>> On 1 Nov 2018, at 16:53, Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All-
>> 
>> I think we should cease support for 10.11 at 5.0.x. MacOS upgrades are free 
>> and generally support Apple hardware back to 2012 [1].  While there may be 
>> some users who don't want to upgrade their operating system but do want to 
>> upgrade KiCad, that seems unnecessarily obstinate.
>> 
>> -Seth
>> 
>> [1] https://www.apple.com/macos/how-to-upgrade/#hardware-requirements
>> 
>> 
>> Am 2018-11-01 10:28, schrieb Adam Wolf:
>>> It looks like globally, about 15%.  I do not have any insight into how
>>> our users different from the global average.
>>> However, I did not hear a single complaint when we moved the bar from
>>> 10.9 to 10.11, following the rules of "current, plus the two previous
>>> releases" that Apple appears to use.
>>> There are three main reasons why I ask:
>>> 1) 10.14 was released in the middle of the 5 cycle.
>>> 2) there is always more work to be done and not having to dig into
>>> this means more time for the other things, like getting Python 3
>>> working in KiCad on macOS... But I also don't want to ruin a bunch of
>>> user's days either.
>>> 3) Now that it is easy for Mac devs to build and generate packages,
>>> there's more incentive to keep the build process simple and sane.  The
>>> macOS 4.x releases, I'm not joking, were probably only buildable on
>>> one computer on this planet, due to all the weird hand-crafted
>>> dependencies.  I am not saying that looking into or fixing this issue
>>> will immediately cause the Mac builds to be unreproducible and full of
>>> cruft, but it could end up that way and it's important to consider.
>>> Mainly, I want someone else to make this hard choice for me :p
>>> It might be an OK time to switch nightlies over, and see what sort of
>>> pushback we get?  I'm not sure.
>>> Adam
>>> On Thu, Nov 1, 2018, 8:03 AM Wayne Stambaugh >> wrote:
 Hey Adam,
 Do you have any idea how much of an impact that this will have on
 our
 macos user base?  If it's minimal, than I would say go ahead any
 move
 builds to 10.12.  If it's something like half of the users, then
 that is
 problematic.  I wouldn't want to have that big of hit to our user
 base.
 Anyone else have any thoughts on this.  I'm not a mac user so I
 don't
 have a good feel as to whether or not this is going to be an issue.
 Cheers,
 Wayne
 On 10/31/2018 4:40 PM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> Last night our automated builds that build on 10.11 both failed
 because
> the latest version of our dependencies no longer builds on 10.11.
> How much time should we put into this, rather than move the builds
 to
> 10.12 and leave the 10.11 users where they're at?
> Apple does not announce end of life, but if they follow what
 they've
> done in the past, there will be no more security updates for 10.11
 now
> that 10.14 is released.
> Adam
> __

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] MacOS dependencies and minimum version

[Adam Wolf]

Sounds good.  I do not have any qualms with fixing this dependency issue.
I just didn't want to take on extra work without us deciding it's a good
idea, rather than me just assuming it is a good idea.  :)

Adam Wolf

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 7:38 AM Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:

> Adam,
>
> I'm fine with you using 10.12 for nightly builds and see how things
> shake out.  Hopefully the grumbling will be minimal so you don't have to
> fall back to 10.11.  I know your time is limited.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wayne
>
> On 11/1/2018 10:28 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > It looks like globally, about 15%.  I do not have any insight into how
> > our users different from the global average.
> >
> > However, I did not hear a single complaint when we moved the bar from
> > 10.9 to 10.11, following the rules of "current, plus the two previous
> > releases" that Apple appears to use.
> >
> > There are three main reasons why I ask:
> >
> > 1) 10.14 was released in the middle of the 5 cycle.
> >
> > 2) there is always more work to be done and not having to dig into this
> > means more time for the other things, like getting Python 3 working in
> > KiCad on macOS... But I also don't want to ruin a bunch of user's days
> > either.
> >
> > 3) Now that it is easy for Mac devs to build and generate packages,
> > there's more incentive to keep the build process simple and sane.  The
> > macOS 4.x releases, I'm not joking, were probably only buildable on one
> > computer on this planet, due to all the weird hand-crafted
> > dependencies.  I am not saying that looking into or fixing this issue
> > will immediately cause the Mac builds to be unreproducible and full of
> > cruft, but it could end up that way and it's important to consider.
> >
> > Mainly, I want someone else to make this hard choice for me :p
> >
> > It might be an OK time to switch nightlies over, and see what sort of
> > pushback we get?  I'm not sure.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 1, 2018, 8:03 AM Wayne Stambaugh  >  wrote:
> >
> > Hey Adam,
> >
> > Do you have any idea how much of an impact that this will have on our
> > macos user base?  If it's minimal, than I would say go ahead any move
> > builds to 10.12.  If it's something like half of the users, then
> that is
> > problematic.  I wouldn't want to have that big of hit to our user
> base.
> >  Anyone else have any thoughts on this.  I'm not a mac user so I
> don't
> > have a good feel as to whether or not this is going to be an issue.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> > On 10/31/2018 4:40 PM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > > Last night our automated builds that build on 10.11 both failed
> > because
> > > the latest version of our dependencies no longer builds on 10.11.
> > >
> > > How much time should we put into this, rather than move the builds
> to
> > > 10.12 and leave the 10.11 users where they're at?
> > >
> > > Apple does not announce end of life, but if they follow what
> they've
> > > done in the past, there will be no more security updates for 10.11
> now
> > > that 10.14 is released.
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > 
> > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > 
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] MacOS dependencies and minimum version

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Adam,

I'm fine with you using 10.12 for nightly builds and see how things
shake out.  Hopefully the grumbling will be minimal so you don't have to
fall back to 10.11.  I know your time is limited.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 11/1/2018 10:28 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> It looks like globally, about 15%.  I do not have any insight into how
> our users different from the global average.
> 
> However, I did not hear a single complaint when we moved the bar from
> 10.9 to 10.11, following the rules of "current, plus the two previous
> releases" that Apple appears to use.
> 
> There are three main reasons why I ask:
> 
> 1) 10.14 was released in the middle of the 5 cycle.
> 
> 2) there is always more work to be done and not having to dig into this
> means more time for the other things, like getting Python 3 working in
> KiCad on macOS... But I also don't want to ruin a bunch of user's days
> either.
> 
> 3) Now that it is easy for Mac devs to build and generate packages,
> there's more incentive to keep the build process simple and sane.  The
> macOS 4.x releases, I'm not joking, were probably only buildable on one
> computer on this planet, due to all the weird hand-crafted
> dependencies.  I am not saying that looking into or fixing this issue
> will immediately cause the Mac builds to be unreproducible and full of
> cruft, but it could end up that way and it's important to consider.
> 
> Mainly, I want someone else to make this hard choice for me :p
> 
> It might be an OK time to switch nightlies over, and see what sort of
> pushback we get?  I'm not sure.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 1, 2018, 8:03 AM Wayne Stambaugh   wrote:
> 
> Hey Adam,
> 
> Do you have any idea how much of an impact that this will have on our
> macos user base?  If it's minimal, than I would say go ahead any move
> builds to 10.12.  If it's something like half of the users, then that is
> problematic.  I wouldn't want to have that big of hit to our user base.
>  Anyone else have any thoughts on this.  I'm not a mac user so I don't
> have a good feel as to whether or not this is going to be an issue.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wayne
> 
> On 10/31/2018 4:40 PM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > Last night our automated builds that build on 10.11 both failed
> because
> > the latest version of our dependencies no longer builds on 10.11.
> >
> > How much time should we put into this, rather than move the builds to
> > 10.12 and leave the 10.11 users where they're at?
> >
> > Apple does not announce end of life, but if they follow what they've
> > done in the past, there will be no more security updates for 10.11 now
> > that 10.14 is released.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to     : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> 
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to     : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> 
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] MacOS dependencies and minimum version

[Jeff Young]

My daughter just had to upgrade from 10.11 to 10.12 because something else 
stopped working.  So we won’t be alone. ;)

(In any event, I encouraged her to keep more up-to-date.  There’s really not 
much down-side on the Mac, although I’ll admit I usually don’t go all the way 
to the latest.)

> On 1 Nov 2018, at 16:53, Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
> 
> Hi All-
> 
> I think we should cease support for 10.11 at 5.0.x. MacOS upgrades are free 
> and generally support Apple hardware back to 2012 [1].  While there may be 
> some users who don't want to upgrade their operating system but do want to 
> upgrade KiCad, that seems unnecessarily obstinate.
> 
> -Seth
> 
> [1] https://www.apple.com/macos/how-to-upgrade/#hardware-requirements
> 
> 
> Am 2018-11-01 10:28, schrieb Adam Wolf:
>> It looks like globally, about 15%.  I do not have any insight into how
>> our users different from the global average.
>> However, I did not hear a single complaint when we moved the bar from
>> 10.9 to 10.11, following the rules of "current, plus the two previous
>> releases" that Apple appears to use.
>> There are three main reasons why I ask:
>> 1) 10.14 was released in the middle of the 5 cycle.
>> 2) there is always more work to be done and not having to dig into
>> this means more time for the other things, like getting Python 3
>> working in KiCad on macOS... But I also don't want to ruin a bunch of
>> user's days either.
>> 3) Now that it is easy for Mac devs to build and generate packages,
>> there's more incentive to keep the build process simple and sane.  The
>> macOS 4.x releases, I'm not joking, were probably only buildable on
>> one computer on this planet, due to all the weird hand-crafted
>> dependencies.  I am not saying that looking into or fixing this issue
>> will immediately cause the Mac builds to be unreproducible and full of
>> cruft, but it could end up that way and it's important to consider.
>> Mainly, I want someone else to make this hard choice for me :p
>> It might be an OK time to switch nightlies over, and see what sort of
>> pushback we get?  I'm not sure.
>> Adam
>> On Thu, Nov 1, 2018, 8:03 AM Wayne Stambaugh > wrote:
>>> Hey Adam,
>>> Do you have any idea how much of an impact that this will have on
>>> our
>>> macos user base?  If it's minimal, than I would say go ahead any
>>> move
>>> builds to 10.12.  If it's something like half of the users, then
>>> that is
>>> problematic.  I wouldn't want to have that big of hit to our user
>>> base.
>>> Anyone else have any thoughts on this.  I'm not a mac user so I
>>> don't
>>> have a good feel as to whether or not this is going to be an issue.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Wayne
>>> On 10/31/2018 4:40 PM, Adam Wolf wrote:
 Last night our automated builds that build on 10.11 both failed
>>> because
 the latest version of our dependencies no longer builds on 10.11.
 How much time should we put into this, rather than move the builds
>>> to
 10.12 and leave the 10.11 users where they're at?
 Apple does not announce end of life, but if they follow what
>>> they've
 done in the past, there will be no more security updates for 10.11
>>> now
 that 10.14 is released.
 Adam
 ___
 Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
 Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] MacOS dependencies and minimum version

[Seth Hillbrand]

Hi All-

I think we should cease support for 10.11 at 5.0.x. MacOS upgrades are 
free and generally support Apple hardware back to 2012 [1].  While there 
may be some users who don't want to upgrade their operating system but 
do want to upgrade KiCad, that seems unnecessarily obstinate.


-Seth

[1] https://www.apple.com/macos/how-to-upgrade/#hardware-requirements


Am 2018-11-01 10:28, schrieb Adam Wolf:

It looks like globally, about 15%.  I do not have any insight into how
our users different from the global average.

However, I did not hear a single complaint when we moved the bar from
10.9 to 10.11, following the rules of "current, plus the two previous
releases" that Apple appears to use.

There are three main reasons why I ask:

1) 10.14 was released in the middle of the 5 cycle.

2) there is always more work to be done and not having to dig into
this means more time for the other things, like getting Python 3
working in KiCad on macOS... But I also don't want to ruin a bunch of
user's days either.

3) Now that it is easy for Mac devs to build and generate packages,
there's more incentive to keep the build process simple and sane.  The
macOS 4.x releases, I'm not joking, were probably only buildable on
one computer on this planet, due to all the weird hand-crafted
dependencies.  I am not saying that looking into or fixing this issue
will immediately cause the Mac builds to be unreproducible and full of
cruft, but it could end up that way and it's important to consider.

Mainly, I want someone else to make this hard choice for me :p

It might be an OK time to switch nightlies over, and see what sort of
pushback we get?  I'm not sure.

Adam

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018, 8:03 AM Wayne Stambaugh 
Hey Adam,

Do you have any idea how much of an impact that this will have on
our
macos user base?  If it's minimal, than I would say go ahead any
move
builds to 10.12.  If it's something like half of the users, then
that is
problematic.  I wouldn't want to have that big of hit to our user
base.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this.  I'm not a mac user so I
don't
have a good feel as to whether or not this is going to be an issue.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 10/31/2018 4:40 PM, Adam Wolf wrote:

Last night our automated builds that build on 10.11 both failed

because

the latest version of our dependencies no longer builds on 10.11.

How much time should we put into this, rather than move the builds

to

10.12 and leave the 10.11 users where they're at?

Apple does not announce end of life, but if they follow what

they've

done in the past, there will be no more security updates for 10.11

now

that 10.14 is released.

Adam

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp


___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] MacOS dependencies and minimum version

[Adam Wolf]

It looks like globally, about 15%.  I do not have any insight into how our
users different from the global average.

However, I did not hear a single complaint when we moved the bar from 10.9
to 10.11, following the rules of "current, plus the two previous releases"
that Apple appears to use.

There are three main reasons why I ask:

1) 10.14 was released in the middle of the 5 cycle.

2) there is always more work to be done and not having to dig into this
means more time for the other things, like getting Python 3 working in
KiCad on macOS... But I also don't want to ruin a bunch of user's days
either.

3) Now that it is easy for Mac devs to build and generate packages, there's
more incentive to keep the build process simple and sane.  The macOS 4.x
releases, I'm not joking, were probably only buildable on one computer on
this planet, due to all the weird hand-crafted dependencies.  I am not
saying that looking into or fixing this issue will immediately cause the
Mac builds to be unreproducible and full of cruft, but it could end up that
way and it's important to consider.

Mainly, I want someone else to make this hard choice for me :p

It might be an OK time to switch nightlies over, and see what sort of
pushback we get?  I'm not sure.

Adam



On Thu, Nov 1, 2018, 8:03 AM Wayne Stambaugh  Hey Adam,
>
> Do you have any idea how much of an impact that this will have on our
> macos user base?  If it's minimal, than I would say go ahead any move
> builds to 10.12.  If it's something like half of the users, then that is
> problematic.  I wouldn't want to have that big of hit to our user base.
>  Anyone else have any thoughts on this.  I'm not a mac user so I don't
> have a good feel as to whether or not this is going to be an issue.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wayne
>
> On 10/31/2018 4:40 PM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > Last night our automated builds that build on 10.11 both failed because
> > the latest version of our dependencies no longer builds on 10.11.
> >
> > How much time should we put into this, rather than move the builds to
> > 10.12 and leave the 10.11 users where they're at?
> >
> > Apple does not announce end of life, but if they follow what they've
> > done in the past, there will be no more security updates for 10.11 now
> > that 10.14 is released.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] MacOS dependencies and minimum version

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Hey Adam,

Do you have any idea how much of an impact that this will have on our
macos user base?  If it's minimal, than I would say go ahead any move
builds to 10.12.  If it's something like half of the users, then that is
problematic.  I wouldn't want to have that big of hit to our user base.
 Anyone else have any thoughts on this.  I'm not a mac user so I don't
have a good feel as to whether or not this is going to be an issue.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 10/31/2018 4:40 PM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> Last night our automated builds that build on 10.11 both failed because
> the latest version of our dependencies no longer builds on 10.11.
> 
> How much time should we put into this, rather than move the builds to
> 10.12 and leave the 10.11 users where they're at?
> 
> Apple does not announce end of life, but if they follow what they've
> done in the past, there will be no more security updates for 10.11 now
> that 10.14 is released.
> 
> Adam
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

[Kicad-developers] MacOS dependencies and minimum version

[Adam Wolf]

Last night our automated builds that build on 10.11 both failed because the
latest version of our dependencies no longer builds on 10.11.

How much time should we put into this, rather than move the builds to 10.12
and leave the 10.11 users where they're at?

Apple does not announce end of life, but if they follow what they've done
in the past, there will be no more security updates for 10.11 now that
10.14 is released.

Adam
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp